RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (Full Version)

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Remmes -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:07:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx
I also recall that the Devs have poured substantial time in MANUALLY cleaning up important bits of coastline where their open source data doesn't match up correctly. Can you imagine how tedious and time consuming that is?


What does this fact have to do with the question of OP? IMHO he is at least entitled to an honest answer, especially after coughing up the dough to play the game.

I am really interested in the game, but I have a feeling that you guys are not completely open if the game is critiqued in any form whatsoever.



Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:10:02 PM)

unprecedented terrain detail , jpkoester, is their interpretation of what the SRTM delivers, in that case.

is this unprecedented terrain detail? I ask you?

[image]local://upfiles/36260/2A6483490F794DEA8696D9FBF1832D80.jpg[/image]

if I was told repeatedly, repeatedly given the impression that the graphics contained an unprecedented terrain detail, then got the image above, then I might feel cheated a little, I think. Oh...that is what I'm feeling...



Dimitris -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:12:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramses

quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx
I also recall that the Devs have poured substantial time in MANUALLY cleaning up important bits of coastline where their open source data doesn't match up correctly. Can you imagine how tedious and time consuming that is?


What does this fact have to do with the question of OP? IMHO he is at least entitled to an honest answer, especially after coughing up the dough to play the game.

I am really interested in the game, but I have a feeling that you guys are not completely open if the game is critiqued in any form whatsoever.


Please have a look at this post: http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=1787

And in particular these two screenshots:
http://www.warfaresims.com/WarSimsWP/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/B386_Gunzo1.png
http://www.warfaresims.com/WarSimsWP/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/B387_Gunzo1.png

These clearly show up the reduced detail at close up.

If our purpose was to mislead customers, as is being claimed here, why exactly would we have published scuh screenshots?



LuckyJim1010 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:12:17 PM)

Thought I had wandered into an old MS Flight Sim forum [:)]



Primarchx -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:13:00 PM)

You guys? I'm not a Dev, just a guy who plays the game. These are my opinions alone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramses


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx
I also recall that the Devs have poured substantial time in MANUALLY cleaning up important bits of coastline where their open source data doesn't match up correctly. Can you imagine how tedious and time consuming that is?


What does this fact have to do with the question of OP? IMHO he is at least entitled to an honest answer, especially after coughing up the dough to play the game.

I am really interested in the game, but I have a feeling that you guys are not completely open if the game is critiqued in any form whatsoever.




Primarchx -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:14:08 PM)

Show me another game that has this level of global terrain fidelity?

quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

unprecedented terrain detail , jpkoester, is their interpretation of what the SRTM delivers, in that case.

is this unprecedented terrain detail? I ask you?

if I was told repeatedly, repeatedly given the impression that the graphics contained an unprecedented terrain detail, then got the image above, then I might feel cheated a little, I think. Oh...that is what I'm feeling...




Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:15:00 PM)

Ok. Well, that's my last word on that. Thanks for the answers. People can look at the images for themselves - if they're thinking of buying - and judge the level of 'global terrain fidelity'.



jpkoester1 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:15:27 PM)

show me one other game that models the whole globe and that offers this kind of detail...

Regards,
JP



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:16:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpkoester1

From http://www.warfaresims.com/?cat=126

Detailed terrain: Command uses as its base terrain reference the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (SRTM) dataset. This digital terrain model features a base resolution of 3 arc-seconds (~900m/cell at the equator), thus allowing for unprecedented terrain detail benefiting air, naval and land operations alike (LOS now actually matters). (I think this refers to the relief layer.)

AND

Command’s built-in map layers include a global “Blue Marble NG” tileset and a custom relief layer derived from our terrain elevation data. Pretty as they are, their true value lies in their tactical utility: Depth and elevation can be some of your best allies if you understand and use them properly, or your worst enemies if you ignore them. (Blue Marble NG has AFAIK a resultion of 500m and is the tileset used as standard)

Anyways, that's what's in the description of the game, and that's what's delivered (+ the possibility of adding custom overlays).

Surface area of the earth is approximately 510.072.000 square kilometers. At 500m resolution each square kilometer has on average 4 data points, that's about 2 billion data points total. Let's assume you want to take that down to 10m resolution. In that case 1 square kilometer would be 10.000 data points. That would be 5.100.720.000.000 data points or about 5 Terabyte of data (assuming 1 bype per data point and no compression). Even at 100m resulution you end up with ~51 billion data points (Again at 1 byte per data point that's 51 Gigabyte). I am sure you get the idea as to why that's impossible to include...

Cheers,
JP


Edit: someone correct me if my math is totally wrong
Edit2: Of course I know this could be compressed, but even if we assume everyone has large enough harddrives and enough bandwidth for the download it would still be a huge problem to get the hands on the data in the first place. Companies like google spend millions (if not billions) on generating data like that.



Even if true that's not an excuse to
1/ only show the nice and pretty screenshots during BETA/advertising. As this is a hardcore oriented game, I imagine a lot of people wouldn't even really notice the bad graphics [:D]
2/To state that the zoomlevel at which bluriness is experienced is not needed during gameplay (although Phoenix is clearly showing you need to play at that level
2/ To even have such bluriness

I was maybe going to buy this over the weekend (depending If I would go to see a saturday evening footballmatch [:'(]) but I'm now really put off by this

sorry...
edit: and no hard feeling btw. I'm just a little dissapointed by this.



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:18:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jpkoester1

show me one other game that models the whole globe and that offers this kind of detail...

Regards,
JP


FS2000 [:D]



Dimitris -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:25:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming
Even if true that's not an excuse to
1/ only show the nice and pretty screenshots during BETA/advertising. As this an hardcore oriented game, I imagine a lot of people wouldn't even really notice the bad graphics [:D]


As I just showed, we demonstrated both "pretty" and "ugly" screenshots well before the release. Again, the implication that we misled potential customers is unfounded.



ExMachina -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:27:27 PM)

FWIW, I've not noticed the resolution decay at high zoom because I was too busy saving my ships from dying [:D]

I never felt like Matrix was being "dishonest" about this and I've never felt hobbled by the resolution limits on the maps.

While it would be NICE to have a super high res terrain map at the highest zoom level, it's all just eye candy at that point--you really aren't able to micromanage your units that precisely (hell, if the units are moving they won't even be on the screen for more than an instant!)

Getting hung up on this issue is missing the forest for the trees.

Command is proving to be an amazing simulation. I for one hope the developers focus on improving the in-game models and leave cosmetic tweaks to the community.



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:28:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming
Even if true that's not an excuse to
1/ only show the nice and pretty screenshots during BETA/advertising. As this an hardcore oriented game, I imagine a lot of people wouldn't even really notice the bad graphics [:D]


As I just showed, we demonstrated both "pretty" and "ugly" screenshots well before the release. Again, the implication that we misled potential customers is unfounded.


Ok, Sunburn, no problem. I just noticed you reply.

It's just that I never visited your site
I only read the AAR's here and followed the dev on this site.

So I really should have visited your site as well to see what was posted there.
(and I'm not pretending I saw every last one of the pre-release published screenshots)

Cheers.
edit: and to be fair you should also consider answering my two other questions in the post you quoted.



Dimitris -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:31:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming
Even if true that's not an excuse to
1/ only show the nice and pretty screenshots during BETA/advertising. As this an hardcore oriented game, I imagine a lot of people wouldn't even really notice the bad graphics [:D]


As I just showed, we demonstrated both "pretty" and "ugly" screenshots well before the release. Again, the implication that we misled potential customers is unfounded.


Ok, Sunburn, no problem. I just noticed you reply.

It's just that I never visited your site
I only read the AAR's here and followed the dev on this site.

So I really should have visited your site as well to see what was posted there.
(and I'm not pretending I saw every last one of the pre-release published screenshots)

Cheers.



Thank you, and no hard feelings from here either. We are sorry that this has taken the wind out of your desire to obtain this great game but we're confident that over time you will come to appreciate it for what it is (and isn't) and join us in this great endeavor. We'll be here for the long run so we're not in a hurry (which is another reason we have no motive to lie/deceive anyone on our game's strengths and weaknesses).

Hope you'll stick around!



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:35:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming
Even if true that's not an excuse to
1/ only show the nice and pretty screenshots during BETA/advertising. As this an hardcore oriented game, I imagine a lot of people wouldn't even really notice the bad graphics [:D]


As I just showed, we demonstrated both "pretty" and "ugly" screenshots well before the release. Again, the implication that we misled potential customers is unfounded.


Ok, Sunburn, no problem. I just noticed you reply.

It's just that I never visited your site
I only read the AAR's here and followed the dev on this site.

So I really should have visited your site as well to see what was posted there.
(and I'm not pretending I saw every last one of the pre-release published screenshots)

Cheers.



Thank you, and no hard feelings from here either. We are sorry that this has taken the wind out of your desire to obtain this great game but we're confident that over time you will come to appreciate it for what it is (and isn't) and join us in this great endeavor. We'll be here for the long run so we're not in a hurry (which is another reason we have no motive to lie/deceive anyone on our game's strengths and weaknesses).

Hope you'll stick around!



Well, from the manual/AAR I would think I would really like this one. Played some harpoon (a long time ago). So this one was on my shortlist (or longlist according to my wife)
I'll put it on hold for the moment and keep an eye out for it

all the best



Erik Rutins -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:37:01 PM)

Just adding in my $.02 - I'm glad all seems clear now but I want to be sure customers without the game understand.

Everything you saw in the screenshots and videos was made with the same game we are selling.

The way computers work, you would need either something that's procedurally/fractally generated or a bitmap of such immense size that we'd have to deliver the game on a hard drive for you to have the entire world at extreme zoom with super high resolution. Every development decision involves trade-offs. In order to get global coverage, you need to decide how much data you are willing to require the user to install and store and that requires deciding what the resolution of these large bitmaps that cover the terrain for the entire world will be. The extreme zoom pictures are not from a zoom level you would normally play at, in my experience. I never noticed this as an issue because I don't normally need to zoom that far in when playing and when I do I accept that the bitmaps are a certain resolution balanced for playability and aesthetics at the most common view scale, so when you zoom in further than their resolution, they get more blurry but when you play as you usually would, they look great.

Regards,

- Erik



Jim D Burns -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:38:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming
Ok, Sunburn, no problem. I just noticed you reply.

It's just that I never visited your site
I only read the AAR's here and followed the dev on this site.

So I really should have visited your site as well to see what was posted there.
(and I'm not pretending I saw every last one of the pre-release published screenshots)

Cheers.
edit: and to be fair you should also consider answering my two other questions in the post you quoted.


So basically what you’re suggesting is you accused them of being outright liars and frauds, yet they should be fair to you and respond to… anything you might say? The only fraud I see here is someone falsely accusing these hard working gentlemen for no other reason than what exactly? I mean why are you here you don’t even have the game and you pull a stunt like this?

Jim



jpkoester1 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:41:18 PM)

That actually led me to some interesting reading (http://www.microsoft.com/Products/Games/FSInsider/developers/Pages/GlobalTerrain.aspx). Anyways looks like raw data for MS flight sim is on a 1km resolution. And afterwards the game uses seasonal data and some GIS-data to actually render the scene based on a very limited tile set. So if you compare MS flight sim scenes to google maps aerial photography they might look very different.

Anyways it might someday be possible to stream the level of detail you obviously desire over the internet or to include additional map layers as they become available (Maybe NASA will do a new blue marble at higher resolution). However, currently even google maps has plenty of places that are just as blurred as the Command map. Expecting Command to do better than that is in my opinion a far fetched idea.

Regards,
JP



Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:41:31 PM)

Sunburn. I'm not saying anyone mislead anyone intentionally, for sure. It was easy for me to be mislead, I think, and focus on those beautiful airbase images, and not on, for example, the pics you've referenced above, in the middle of a post.

Caveat emptor. I should have taken more care to look at all the material before I bought. But, as I said, I would still have bought, I think - maybe because of everything that was said about the AI being much better than in harpoon, and it not being a clickfest like harpoon (or at least, that such things were said is the impression I took away....). The AI - friendly, subordinate and enemy - is always the deal breaker for me, what keeps me either playing something or ditching it, not the graphics. So far Command Ops: Battles From the Bulge (another matrix title)is far and away the best game that has ever been made in that respect, imho. So far I've come across nothing like it. I've yet to really see what the AI is like in Command, yet to really test it, but look forward to it. And I'll post my opinions, no doubt....[;)]



ExMachina -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:41:39 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming
Ok, Sunburn, no problem. I just noticed you reply.

It's just that I never visited your site
I only read the AAR's here and followed the dev on this site.

So I really should have visited your site as well to see what was posted there.
(and I'm not pretending I saw every last one of the pre-release published screenshots)

Cheers.
edit: and to be fair you should also consider answering my two other questions in the post you quoted.


So basically what you’re suggesting is you accused them of being outright liars and frauds, yet they should be fair to you and respond to… anything you might say? The only fraud I see here is someone falsely accusing these hard working gentlemen for no other reason than what exactly? I mean why are you here you don’t even have the game and you pull a stunt like this?

Jim


I was going to reply in a similar manner. Kudos to the Command team for their respectful handling of all the smoke being blown here.



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:43:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just adding in my $.02 - I'm glad all seems clear now but I want to be sure customers without the game understand.

Everything you saw in the screenshots and videos was made with the same game we are selling.

The way computers work, you would need either something that's procedurally/fractally generated or a bitmap of such immense size that we'd have to deliver the game on a hard drive for you to have the entire world at extreme zoom with super high resolution. Every development decision involves trade-offs. In order to get global coverage, you need to decide how much data you are willing to require the user to install and store and that requires deciding what the resolution of these large bitmaps that cover the terrain for the entire world will be. The extreme zoom pictures are not from a zoom level you would normally play at, in my experience. I never noticed this as an issue because I don't normally need to zoom that far in when playing and when I do I accept that the bitmaps are a certain resolution balanced for playability and aesthetics at the most common view scale, so when you zoom in further than their resolution, they get more blurry but when you play as you usually would, they look great.

Regards,

- Erik


Well noted Erik, thanks.
The only problem I still have with this is the discussion between Phoenix stating he really needs this zoom level to play (based on the out of eight review and his screenshots I tend to agree; due to to clutter at higher zoom) and the devs stating this "extreme" zoom isn't really necessary to play and is even "akward" to play.

Logical question:
Why is a zoom level which
-is very blurry
-akward to play at
-almost never necessary for play

included in the final product?




Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:46:41 PM)

Well, you can use those zoom levels, Fleming, and just ignore the blur, because if you don't you're focussing on the wrong thing......[;)]

For myself it would have been better not have claimed that I - the customer - was playing the game wrong or stupidly (using unnecessary, awkward and rare zoom levels) but just to have answered my questions a few days back - all I asked was - is this normal or am I doing something wrong? You could have just said - it's normal. Then we wouldn't have had all this 'smoke'...



Remmes -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:49:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

We'll be here for the long run so we're not in a hurry (which is another reason we have no motive to lie/deceive anyone on our game's strengths and weaknesses).


As I see this is the third post in which you use the term misleading/lying etc. this is not what I meant to when I said I felt 'you guys' were not being open. I have been nosing these threads and the dev team are on top of things with quality customer service each and every time. Now a dissatisfied customer shows up and it takes almost a full thread page before the guy get's a decent answer. A post like the one below would have ended discussions rather quickly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Everything you saw in the screenshots and videos was made with the same game you have now. The way computers work, you would need either something that's procedurally/fractally generated or a bitmap of such immense size that we'd have to deliver the game on a hard drive for you to have the entire world at extreme zoom with super high resolution. I have to say I never noticed this as an issue because I don't need to zoom that far in when playing and when I do I accept that the bitmaps are a certain resolution balanced for playability and aesthetics at the most common view scale, so when you zoom in further than their resolution, they get more blurry.

Regards,

- Erik



I never accused anyone of lying, heck I am still fighting the urge to order this game myself.



Dimitris -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:50:14 PM)

quote:


Logical question:
Why is a zoom level which
-is very blurry
-akward to play at
-almost never necessary for play

included in the final product?


Because there are certain occasions where you really do want the camera to "come down" and literally hang just over the scene of the action.

Examples:

* Cluster bomb/warhead bursting over e.g. a group of vehicles, the bomblet cloud gradually spreading out and finally impacting, most of the vehicles being wiped out.

* Similarly, a Tornado/JP-233 run over a runway. (If you've added a custom image overlay, it's just like being there).

* Platoons of tanks and other vehicles exchanging fire, tracers and near-misses everywhere.

* A close-in dogfight between aircraft, with cannon tracers and IR missiles criss-crossing.

* Being surrounded by near-misses from enemy artillery, for example: http://www.warfaresims.com/WarSimsWP/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Splashes1.png

At these and other moments you don't really have time to notice the jagged coastline or the pixellated mountain range. You're too busy picking your jaw off the floor [:D]



Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:50:38 PM)

Agree entirely with Ramses post re Erik's great succinct reply.

And sarcasm from a moderator is rarely useful. You want those zoom levels - as I demonstrated in screenshots - to be able to see what's in the group.



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:52:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming
Ok, Sunburn, no problem. I just noticed you reply.

It's just that I never visited your site
I only read the AAR's here and followed the dev on this site.

So I really should have visited your site as well to see what was posted there.
(and I'm not pretending I saw every last one of the pre-release published screenshots)

Cheers.
edit: and to be fair you should also consider answering my two other questions in the post you quoted.


So basically what you’re suggesting is you accused them of being outright liars and frauds, yet they should be fair to you and respond to… anything you might say? The only fraud I see here is someone falsely accusing these hard working gentlemen for no other reason than what exactly? I mean why are you here you don’t even have the game and you pull a stunt like this?

Jim



I didn't pull the stunt: I was referring to a thread in the help section in which a customer was asking if he was doing somehting wrong because he game did not resemble the screenshots he (and I for that matter) saw in the BETA AAR's.
He did not receive a clear anwer and that's why I started this thread because I wanted clarification because I'm still on the fence about this.
I never called them liars/frauds etc. I did state in my OP that IF the game did not include the graphics like the the BETA AARS that WOULD be false advertising.
Quod non.

I now know the bluriness is caused by the zoom level and I still feel the screenshots did not show this.
Some screenshots did show this and I missed them as they were posted on the other site.







Primarchx -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:53:28 PM)

No one said that level of zoom isn't useful. Just that it was extreme, from my perspective. Again, if you're looking for terrain fidelity as good as Google Earth, that's asking a lot of an $80 product. At that level of zoom I will use my tool tip info to feel out the edges of any nearby coast or depth curve I'm working with if that level of accuracy is required.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming


The only problem I still have with this is the discussion between Phoenix stating he really needs this zoom level to play (based on the out of eight review and his screenshots I tend to agree; due to to clutter at higher zoom) and the devs stating this "extreme" zoom isn't really necessary to play and is even "akward" to play.

Logical question:
Why is a zoom level which
-is very blurry
-akward to play at
-almost never necessary for play

included in the final product?






Dimitris -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:54:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramses
As I see this is the third post in which you use the term misleading/lying etc. this is not what I meant to when I said I felt 'you guys' were not being open. I have been nosing these threads and the dev team are on top of things with quality customer service each and every time. Now a dissatisfied customer shows up and it takes almost a full thread page before the guy get's a decent answer. A post like the one below would have ended discussions rather quickly.
[...]
I never accused anyone of lying, heck I am still fighting the urge to order this game myself.


Fair enough. Please consider yourself excluded from my point.



smudge56 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 4:09:36 PM)

Falklands.


quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Substantially or extremely? You said I was using extreme close ups. That was misleading, I feel - and, of course, that's my opinion. Take a look at the two shots above for how such a 'substantially zoomed in level' is useful, under normal circs.

And I can imagine how time consuming it is to have to try to get maps right, yes - the sort of effort that justifies paying 60 quid for a game.

But they would need to do a bit more work, I think. [;)]

But thanks for the answer. In other words - yes, all this is normal. Thanks. For me I would probably have bought this still - to see how the AI worked, at the very least - if I had known in advance that a normal, useful zomm level looked like the images I've posted. I don't care super-much for how the graphics are, if the game play is good. But I would still like to have known. Because I would have thought about it. Because that image of the Malvinas is really appalling.





Jim D Burns -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 4:09:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming

I never called them liars/frauds etc. I did state in my OP that IF the game did not include the graphics like the the BETA AARS that WOULD be false advertising.



I’m not going to get into the specifics of each individual post. The gist of this entire thread was you felt they intentionally only posted the best screenshots with the intent of misleading customers. You even inferred that they tried to pass off screenshots of different zoom levels as zoomed in shots. That in itself is calling someone a liar and cheat and I’m 100% sure that’s exactly what you meant to do.

Then you try and shrug it all off after causing these gentlemen all this angst when evidence is shown that they indeed posted zoomed in pics and say well I never saw those so all must be forgiven.

I don’t wish to be banned from the forum, so let’s just say you remind me of a donkey.

P.S. See you don’t actually have to say the actual word to get the gist of its meaning across.

Jim



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