RE: Formation Editor (Full Version)

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RockKahn -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 5:15:16 PM)

I don't remember there ever being a range and bearing option in Harpoon's formation editor, either. I just remember the range rings and sectors in the formation dialog box. It worked well.

I just mentioned using a range and bearing, because it may be closer to what's already in Command, than a separate dialog box like Harpoon's. Also, that's the way it's done in real life....well.... 40 years ago, anyway. [:'(]

I wonder if the devs are getting a little tired of people suggesting things, because it was a feature they liked in Harpoon. [&:] I probably would be.

I wrote out complete instructions for those who want to station a ship a specific range and bearing from the formation lead ship using ExMachina's suggestion. Apparently, this is the way it was designed to work. All the tools are there to do this. It's a little cumbersome, but gets easier when you've done it a few times.

1. Press Ctrl-D, then click and drag the "+" from the lead ship to the desired range and bearing.
2. Press ESC
3. Then Ctrl-Right click to bring up the RP menu, while being careful not to move the mouse pointer.
4. Press the down-arrow key to select "Add reference point" from the menu and press ENTER.
5. Press the left mouse button to set the RP.
6. Open the formation editor, select the ship you want at that station from the list, click the desired "Set new station" button.
7. Move the hand cursor near the RP and Click (don't click on the RP, it just selects the RP).
8. Close the formation editor.
9. Click the RP and press the Delete key to delete the RP.

And you're done. Easy as pie. Goto step 1 for next ship.



ExMachina -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 5:23:28 PM)

quote:

I wonder if the devs are getting a little tired of people suggesting things, because it was a feature they liked in Harpoon. I probably would be.


Agreed. But for most of us who played H2/3 in the distant (or not-so-distant) past, UN-learning can seem harder than learning [:)]



HercMighty -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 5:47:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RockKahn

1. Press Ctrl-D, then click and drag the "+" from the lead ship to the desired range and bearing.
2. Press ESC
3. Then Ctrl-Right click to bring up the RP menu, while being careful not to move the mouse pointer.
4. Press the down-arrow key to select "Add reference point" from the menu and press ENTER.
5. Press the left mouse button to set the RP.
6. Open the formation editor, select the ship you want at that station from the list, click the desired "Set new station" button.
7. Move the hand cursor near the RP and Click (don't click on the RP, it just selects the RP).
8. Close the formation editor.
9. Click the RP and press the Delete key to delete the RP.

And you're done. Easy as pie. Goto step 1 for next ship.



Ok, so the Harpoon references may becoming annoying (Though what do you expect I guess) there has to be a more intuitive solution than the above...



Rudd -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 6:07:35 PM)

quote:

UN-learning can seem harder than learning

Quote of the day!! lol, because it's the truth, for me anyway[:D]



RockKahn -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 6:16:59 PM)

I agree 100%. I said if I were a dev I'd be tired of people suggesting all these Harpoon features. But I'm not a dev, so I want all these suggested Harpoon features, too.

You're right, it shouldn't take 9 steps to station one ship. (The list would be shorter if I provided less detail.) Also, if you mess up before you get your RP placed, you have to start all over again. It does get easier the more you do it, but, yes, there needs to be a better way.



ExMachina -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 6:23:09 PM)

quote:

You're right, it shouldn't take 9 steps to station one ship. (The list would be shorter if I provided less detail.) Also, if you mess up before you get your RP placed, you have to start all over again. It does get easier the more you do it, but, yes, there needs to be a better way.


It's 9 steps b/c when you write it all out it looks terrible (it's actually just two things: 1) set ref point and 2)set station)...more importantly you're doing something (placing a station at a specific range and a specific bearing from a specific (other) ship) that you couldn't in H2/3...



Amono -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 6:52:49 PM)

I still don't get it how to setup proper asw patrol. Let's say that I have a formation with a HVU , two Ticos and a Spruance. In the formation editor I put Ticos near the HVU with fixed bearing stations. I set a patrol zone with four refpoints(relative bearing to HVU) along the HVU PIM. The patrol zone is 12nm to 20nm in front of the HVU. Then I detach the Spruance from the formation and create a asw patrol mission and assign the Spruance in it. I've set formation speed to 14kts and the detached spruance starts moving towards the patrol zone at 18kts. Instead of sprinting to 20nm point the Spruance starts drifting at 12nm point and it changes constantly speed as it tries to keep up with moving patrol zone.[&:]



Amono -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 6:56:39 PM)

Here's a save game.



RockKahn -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 8:30:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExMachina

quote:

You're right, it shouldn't take 9 steps to station one ship. (The list would be shorter if I provided less detail.) Also, if you mess up before you get your RP placed, you have to start all over again. It does get easier the more you do it, but, yes, there needs to be a better way.


It's 9 steps b/c when you write it all out it looks terrible (it's actually just two things: 1) set ref point and 2)set station)...more importantly you're doing something (placing a station at a specific range and a specific bearing from a specific (other) ship) that you couldn't in H2/3...


Yep. You've repeated what I've said, so I guess we're on the same page. [;)]



eaube -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 8:51:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amono

I still don't get it how to setup proper asw patrol. Let's say that I have a formation with a HVU , two Ticos and a Spruance. In the formation editor I put Ticos near the HVU with fixed bearing stations. I set a patrol zone with four refpoints(relative bearing to HVU) along the HVU PIM. The patrol zone is 12nm to 20nm in front of the HVU. Then I detach the Spruance from the formation and create a asw patrol mission and assign the Spruance in it. I've set formation speed to 14kts and the detached spruance starts moving towards the patrol zone at 18kts. Instead of sprinting to 20nm point the Spruance starts drifting at 12nm point and it changes constantly speed as it tries to keep up with moving patrol zone.[&:]



This is where I'm still at. Setting a station keeping picket is no problem, but managing to have ASW ships sprint/drift in a certain area relative to a formation completely eludes me.

Either it's INCREDIBLY un-intuitive to do so, or the ability is simply not in the game right now. If it's the first, some sort of tutorial video would be great. If it's the later, that's fine, you never get EVERYTHING in a first release with a game that complicated, but I both hope that this is something that's added as it's EXTREMELY important and that someone at least SAYS that it's not in the game right now rather than just having people get frustrated trying to do this.

People can be pretty understanding about that sort of thing if you are open about it and keep them informed [;)]



mattpenfold -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 9:26:37 PM)

It is really quite simple to setup a ASW patrol zone.

1. Define the patrol zone using reference points.
2. Set those reference points either fixed or relative to the naval group they will be screening.
3. Create a ASW patrol mission, using those reference points. It is best not to mix aircraft and ships because of the 1/3 rule. Do seperate mission for each, using the 1/3 rule for aircraft but not for ships.
4. Decide what the ROE/EMCON rules will be.
5. Assign the ships/aircraft.

Keep in mind if you are using ships for an ASW screen, then you will have problems if the group being screened is coming on fast. It is almost impossible to perform an effective ASW screen if the group being screened is moving nearly as fast as the ships doing the screening.



eaube -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 9:47:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mattpenfold

It is really quite simple to setup a ASW patrol zone.

1. Define the patrol zone using reference points.
2. Set those reference points either fixed or relative to the naval group they will be screening.
3. Create a ASW patrol mission, using those reference points. It is best not to mix aircraft and ships because of the 1/3 rule. Do seperate mission for each, using the 1/3 rule for aircraft but not for ships.
4. Decide what the ROE/EMCON rules will be.
5. Assign the ships/aircraft.

Keep in mind if you are using ships for an ASW screen, then you will have problems if the group being screened is coming on fast. It is almost impossible to perform an effective ASW screen if the group being screened is moving nearly as fast as the ships doing the screening.


15 knots shouldn't be TOO unreasonable for ships that can make 30+ knots I wouldn't think. Unfortunately ship groups assigned to ASW patrols simply refuse to go faster than 12 knots. I'd imagine that this would work fine if you limit your force that is being screened to 10 knots, but that seems a BIT unreasonable to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfIOqapRmUM

This is my interpretation of your directions and the result. It was done just for show, so I didn't set up airborne patrols and the like, since those work WONDERFULLY and is a huge improvement over how that works in H3. Neither task group, which both have their slowest ship capable of 20kts full/28kts flank, will generally not try to go any faster than 12 knots.

That behavior of course is fine in a fixed patrol zone. There's no need to go zooming about at 30kts there. Unfortunately the ASW patrol behavior doesn't recognize the difference between 'fixed zone' ASW patrol and 'station keeping zone' ASW patrol. If the later was added as a separate patrol type with it's own speed behavior, it might be a simple solution.



mikmykWS -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 10:02:09 PM)

Okay use the formation editor for the ships and mission editor for the aircraft.

You can drop 4 points quickly by: ctrl + left click on the map, pick define area and then draw the area you'd like. This will drop four points selected. You can then launch the mission editor and set up a ASW Patrol Mission. I usually assign MPA's to the boxes or high endurance ASW helo's using the 1/3rd rule and keep them in the area. I then assign the lighter asw helo's to a sub strike mission. They'll launch and attack as the towed arrays or patrols detect subs which is close to the RL model.

If somebody doesn't beat me to it I'll do a video this weekend with some tips.



eaube -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 10:12:49 PM)

I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing. I can set airborne ASW patrols that track in front of a formation without any problems. I can set ship formations just fine for pure station keeping, great for AAW and ASuW work. However, I can't set ships to sprint and drift around a formation centerpiece, regardless of using the formation editor or missions. If we ARE talking about the same thing, I guess I'll wait for the video to see what I'm doing incorrectly. Regardless, thanks for taking the time to try to explain, and doing a video if it comes to it.



mikmykWS -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 10:20:01 PM)

Ah gotcha. No sprint and drift yet within formations. Adding a note to existing entry in our feature requests.



eaube -> RE: Formation Editor (10/2/2013 10:21:19 PM)

Perfect, all I needed to know, thanks! I look forwards to this being in-game.



orca -> RE: Formation Editor (12/3/2013 8:51:43 PM)

+1

To allow creation of ship asw (and possibly sea control) patrols though formation editor with the following features.

The patrols would be within a zone (not a point). The zone area is user defined and can be at a fixed or relative bearing to lead ship in formation.

The ship would exhibit sprint-drift behavior.


Might consider allowing reference points related to a group that are created in formation editor to be visualized only in formation editor.



SSN754planker -> RE: Formation Editor (12/3/2013 9:25:32 PM)

The formation editor for me is pretty to use. The use of RP's makes everything a LOT easier than it used to be in Harp. Now with the latest builds you can hide RP's so they do not clutter the map, so you don't see a mass of X's where your task force icon should be.



smudge56 -> RE: Formation Editor (12/3/2013 10:21:39 PM)

Where's that option Im blind.



SSN754planker -> RE: Formation Editor (12/3/2013 10:27:30 PM)

Its not in 469, but they did include it in 470. Probably going to have to wait until 1.02 to see it. Check the build roll.



Figeac -> RE: Formation Editor (12/3/2013 10:48:27 PM)

I would like to see sprint-drift too, but I'm not sure if it is necessary. I mean, does the speed of a ship (or a nearby one) affects his sonar range in Command?

And I also would like to know what is the red diamond that appears on the formation editor and the main map sometimes!



Dimitris -> RE: Formation Editor (12/4/2013 6:25:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Figeac
I would like to see sprint-drift too, but I'm not sure if it is necessary. I mean, does the speed of a ship (or a nearby one) affects his sonar range in Command?


Absolutely.

quote:


And I also would like to know what is the red diamond that appears on the formation editor and the main map sometimes!


Pointer used by the navigator AI.



smudge56 -> RE: Formation Editor (12/4/2013 10:41:47 AM)

Ah good I'm not going mad.



quote:

ORIGINAL: SSN754planker

Its not in 469, but they did include it in 470. Probably going to have to wait until 1.02 to see it. Check the build roll.




Sigma8510 -> RE: Formation Editor (1/5/2014 4:16:21 AM)

Quoting my own post, but I am not sure this issue was ever addressed. Outlined below, but in brief, surface units assigned to ASW patrols with reference points stay at constant speed no matter their relative position to the formation. Causes them to get, and remain, way off station. Will run a test on the latest build (482) and post a save tomorrow.
Anyone with information on the status of this issue, please respond.
Thanks!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbaxter1964

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lack of Comprehension

I have been playing around a fair bit in the Advanced ASW Exercise scenario to get a feel for the 'formationless' formations, and I'll admit it has left me a bit confused. Any ship I assign to an ASW patrol mission spends the entirety of the scenario moving at 12 knots. If the reference points are tracking a ship going 15 knots, they simply lag far behind the formation and never 'keep up', which makes for a fairly poor screen as you can imagine. Shouldn't a ship on an ASW patrol mission alternate between moving at full to get to it's self plotted destination in a reasonable timeframe, then drift for a bit to listen, go back to full to 'keep up' again, and so on, rather than just moving at a constant 12 speed?

...


I may post this in the beta forum as well, but I am just getting a chance to raise this as an issue as well.

I too have seen the same behavior from ships assigned to ASW patrol missions tied to tracking reference points. In this case I am in one of the Falklands scenarios and assign a DD (after detaching) at the rear of the formation to a ASW patrol station in front of the group. After 6+ game hours, he has stayed at a constant 12knots trying to over take a 16 knot task force. Needless to say, he is further behind the group and doesn't stand a chance to get in front until they get on station. The expected behavior would have been for the DD to make best speed to station, AND THEN commence patrol (sprint/drift, etc.).

I hope this is enough information to get someone started. If there is something I am missing in my setup, please let me know.

Great game! (Can't say it enough!)

Joe




Rudd -> RE: Formation Editor (1/5/2014 12:51:51 PM)

quote:

Quoting my own post, but I am not sure this issue was ever addressed. Outlined below, but in brief, surface units assigned to ASW patrols with reference points stay at constant speed no matter their relative position to the formation. Causes them to get, and remain, way off station. Will run a test on the latest build (482) and post a save tomorrow.
Anyone with information on the status of this issue, please respond.
Thanks!!


Make sure the "Manual speed" box is unchecked on all ships in formation, seems like I had this issue before, and that fixed it.



DROregon -> RE: Formation Editor (1/5/2014 7:20:16 PM)

Is there a tutorial video of the formation editor, with air missions (ASW & AAW) too?



Sigma8510 -> RE: Formation Editor (1/22/2014 1:07:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudd

quote:

Quoting my own post, but I am not sure this issue was ever addressed. Outlined below, but in brief, surface units assigned to ASW patrols with reference points stay at constant speed no matter their relative position to the formation. Causes them to get, and remain, way off station. Will run a test on the latest build (482) and post a save tomorrow.
Anyone with information on the status of this issue, please respond.
Thanks!!


Make sure the "Manual speed" box is unchecked on all ships in formation, seems like I had this issue before, and that fixed it.

Just got time to test this in 486. Max speed of ship assigned to ASW patrol was 12 knots. I checked all speed boxes for all surface units to verify they were in "auto". I am pretty sure this is a known issue, and I seem to recall it was scheduled to be fixed down the road. For now I will just have to micro manage the formations.



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