Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (Full Version)

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RadishRabbit -> Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/29/2013 6:07:34 AM)

makes all the loadouts unavailable including AG missions.

Can carrier magazine be replenished?



Primarchx -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/29/2013 6:25:47 AM)

It can if there's a replenishment ship nearby with the right stores. What scenario?



Maromak -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/29/2013 9:46:59 AM)

Probably Operation Bass Drum [:D]

After playing the most recent version though, I haven't needed many AMRAAMs so far. On the first version I ran out completely with around 1/3 of the time remaining!



RadishRabbit -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/29/2013 10:10:27 AM)

Yea, Bass Drum.

There's a supply ship in the carrier group, how do i go about replenish the AMRAAMs?



Maromak -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/29/2013 11:17:53 AM)

From memory the resupply ship doesn't carry any extra -120s but if you wanted to try, right-click on the ship that needs to be resupplied. Then select UNREP (if possible). If the ship to be resupplied is part of a formation/group, you'll need to hit '9' on the numberpad to switch from group view to unit view.



JRyan -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/29/2013 1:51:50 PM)

Yeah I just played a quickie and the AMRAAM's seem better. I ran out also. The one that got me was Tee Up, that one caught me off guard as I ran out of torps. Sneaky move by scen designer :) .



Primarchx -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/29/2013 2:07:10 PM)

The number of AMRAAMs in Brass Drums is a constraint the player has to deal with. There aren't any AMRAAMs on the AOE, either. There's a reason that one is listed as being difficult. [8D]



RadishRabbit -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/29/2013 8:54:44 PM)

it's a shame, because i have plenty of AG munitions that I can't load



Rob322 -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/29/2013 10:33:03 PM)

I kind of like this. It's realistic and it forces players to think about how they allocate ammo. One thing that drove me up the wall with Harpoon was the unlimited ammo at all airfields ans CVs. My friends and I were capable of dealing with this with pen and paper Harpoon and always wondered why the classic computer game couldn't



Maromak -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/30/2013 10:05:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RadishRabbit

it's a shame, because i have plenty of AG munitions that I can't load


In order to get your hands on some more AMRAAMs you could try setting aircraft on the same platform to 'Reserve' or 'Ferry' so that the AMRAAMs on these aircraft will be returned to the munitions pool and become available for other aircraft.



Primarchx -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (9/30/2013 1:52:22 PM)

There are also several "1-AMRAAM" strike loads available.



NefariousKoel -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 1:39:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RadishRabbit

it's a shame, because i have plenty of AG munitions that I can't load


So.. all the loadouts for that aircraft require AIM-120s in order to load them?

I'd consider this a serious game engine limitation if you have aircraft and plenty of AtG ordnance that you can't load because there is no AtA missiles left.



thewood1 -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 1:56:29 AM)

I think H3 and HC both had this limitation. It was usually overcome by having a huge number of loadouts that mixed and match weapons to avoid that issue. I don't know if it was corrected later.



RoryAndersonCDT -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 2:05:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I think H3 and HC both had this limitation. It was usually overcome by having a huge number of loadouts that mixed and match weapons to avoid that issue. I don't know if it was corrected later.


I think I've seen aircraft launched short of AIM-120 with a full strike load. My next live stream (on Saturday) will focus on Carrier operations; including logistics.



thewood1 -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 2:40:01 AM)

Playing around with it, it seems this limitation exists. I removed all sidewinders from carrier magazine and I could not use most of the F-14 loadouts at all. Any loadout that required a sidewinder was not allowed.



Primarchx -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 2:40:02 AM)

The trouble is that short of having a pylon-by-pylon loading system or having 1000 different load permutations per aircraft, you have to draw the line somewhere. In OBD the player is told up front that they have all the ord they can get. From that point on it's up to them to manage it. When I finished playing the final version of the scenario I had over 75 AMRAAMs remaining. Believe me, it can be done.



NefariousKoel -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 6:39:06 AM)

Surely there's a better way. I mean .. this is a new program, built from the bottom-up. I had hoped that such limitations of the old Harpoon game engine wouldn't migrate to CMANO. [:(]



Wiz33 -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 7:12:17 AM)

I view this not as a limitation but a bug that need to be fixed. I don't care if you can actually do this scenario without running out of AMRAAM. That's not the point. The point is that you should still be able to have AG loadout without needing AMRAAM. Either fix it or make AG loadout with no ATA missile requirement available.



Jakob Wedman -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 7:59:14 AM)

Thanks. I've added this to the bug track system.



Primarchx -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 2:31:37 PM)

In my opinion the point is the player needs to track their resources and play within the limits established by the game and scenario.

I suppose something like a "limited AAM" flag could be included, but frankly there's a reason those self-defense AAMs are on strike loadouts. Air forces are pretty conservative when it comes to mission safety and getting their birds home in one piece.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33

I view this not as a limitation but a bug that need to be fixed. I don't care if you can actually do this scenario without running out of AMRAAM. That's not the point. The point is that you should still be able to have AG loadout without needing AMRAAM. Either fix it or make AG loadout with no ATA missile requirement available.




thewood1 -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 2:35:51 PM)

Yeah, but in the sidewinder case, would you really not fly AAW missions at all because you are out of one missile type? I think that might be an override a fleet commander can make.



Primarchx -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 2:48:11 PM)

It's a complex issue. I was responding to the question "Why can't I load an A2G loadout and just skip missing AMRAAMs?". At this point the game abstracts loads as fixed items associated with available inventory. The abstraction can be deepened but there's work involved and possibly some player confusion.

Here's a quick suggestion, though. When applying loadouts to aircraft there could be inclusion check boxes by each item, which are checked by default. Unchecking the box deletes the selected store. This is a quasi 'pylon-by-pylon' method. I have no idea how complex this would be under the hood as certainly fuel consumption would need to be recalc'd as might RCS and other factors.



thewood1 -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 2:56:49 PM)

I think just an override on existing loadouts would be a simpler solution. If the override screws things up on the mission, it's the commander's fault.

I did notice that not having drop tanks available doesn't restrict using a loadout.



Dimitris -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 3:14:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
I view this not as a limitation but a bug that need to be fixed. I don't care if you can actually do this scenario without running out of AMRAAM. That's not the point. The point is that you should still be able to have AG loadout without needing AMRAAM. Either fix it or make AG loadout with no ATA missile requirement available.


I fully agree with you, and I actually devoted a significant chunk of code into ensuring that this would not happen; aircraft in Command are meant to be able to be outfitted with a loadout even if non-essential elements of that loadout are present.

So this definitely sounds like a bug. Can someone please post a save demonstrating this? Thanks!



Wiz33 -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 6:21:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

In my opinion the point is the player needs to track their resources and play within the limits established by the game and scenario.

I suppose something like a "limited AAM" flag could be included, but frankly there's a reason those self-defense AAMs are on strike loadouts. Air forces are pretty conservative when it comes to mission safety and getting their birds home in one piece.



As I said. It's not about the scenario but the game mechanics.

Also. If there's an enemy surface force bearing down on your CVBG. Are you telling me that the CO would hold the surface strike because he ran out of AMRAAM and risk damage to the whole battlegroup? Or a ship captain holding his helo because it only have 1 torp instead of 2 while he know that there's a sub contact out there?



Tomcat84 -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 7:10:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

So this definitely sounds like a bug. Can someone please post a save demonstrating this? Thanks!


Just edited the standard OBD scenario by emptying the magazines and made a save.

Cant attach zips anymore?

So get it here off my webspace

I had set all these Hornets to reserve

[image]http://bmetz2.home.xs4all.nl/images/command/noaim120-1.jpg[/image]

Before I do anything, looking at loadouts, AMRAAMS a plenty, looks good:

[image]http://bmetz2.home.xs4all.nl/images/command/noaim120-2.jpg[/image]

I select four to ready and they start readying just fine:

[image]http://bmetz2.home.xs4all.nl/images/command/noaim120-3.jpg[/image]

Now I edit the magazine and remove all AMRAAMS from the ship. This time i pick another Hornet to ready and cant do it, even though only thing missing is the single AIM-120:

[image]http://bmetz2.home.xs4all.nl/images/command/noaim120-4.jpg[/image]



RadishRabbit -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 11:43:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

The trouble is that short of having a pylon-by-pylon loading system or having 1000 different load permutations per aircraft, you have to draw the line somewhere. In OBD the player is told up front that they have all the ord they can get. From that point on it's up to them to manage it. When I finished playing the final version of the scenario I had over 75 AMRAAMs remaining. Believe me, it can be done.


What was your friendly AC loss like? I found that the advanced Fulcrums requires 4~8 AMRAAMs for a kill at distance. Do you risk it and close your AC's distance?



Primarchx -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 11:55:36 PM)

I lost 1 F/A-18E by the end. In full disclosure I should say I wrote the scenario. But as the old addage goes, it's easier to kill a bird in the nest than in the air.

Typical launch range for AIM-120D was at 50nm (outer edge of AA-12 envelope and well into the SLAMMER's), then peel away while a second element of fighters further out kept radar contact. This kept the AMRAAMs from having really bad kinematic penalties, with a final pH of around 35% as I recall.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RadishRabbit


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

The trouble is that short of having a pylon-by-pylon loading system or having 1000 different load permutations per aircraft, you have to draw the line somewhere. In OBD the player is told up front that they have all the ord they can get. From that point on it's up to them to manage it. When I finished playing the final version of the scenario I had over 75 AMRAAMs remaining. Believe me, it can be done.


What was your friendly AC loss like? I found that the advanced Fulcrums requires 4~8 AMRAAMs for a kill at distance. Do you risk it and close your AC's distance?




RadishRabbit -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/1/2013 11:58:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

I lost 1 F/A-18E by the end. In full disclosure I should say I wrote the scenario. But as the old addage goes, it's easier to kill a bird in the nest than in the air.

Typical launch range for AIM-120D was at 50nm (outer edge of AA-12 envelope and well into the SLAMMER's), then peel away while a second element of fighters further out kept radar contact. This kept the AMRAAMs from having really bad kinematic penalties, with a final pH of around 35% as I recall.



Nice meat grinder setup. f4 pilot?



Primarchx -> RE: Carrier ran out of AMRAAMs (10/2/2013 12:05:06 AM)

Thanks!

Not a pilot. Just an unreformable micro-managing OCD victim. [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: RadishRabbit


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

I lost 1 F/A-18E by the end. In full disclosure I should say I wrote the scenario. But as the old addage goes, it's easier to kill a bird in the nest than in the air.

Typical launch range for AIM-120D was at 50nm (outer edge of AA-12 envelope and well into the SLAMMER's), then peel away while a second element of fighters further out kept radar contact. This kept the AMRAAMs from having really bad kinematic penalties, with a final pH of around 35% as I recall.



Nice meat grinder setup. f4 pilot?




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