Editor bug (Full Version)

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Sertorius1 -> Editor bug (9/30/2013 6:43:22 PM)

I’m going to call this an editor bug.

To start off I am using Windows XP Professional. There are 2 GBs of RAM. The HD has 40 GBs of which a quarter of it isn’t in use. The game has been on the HD for four years or so. It was installed using the CD and was version 3.0.0.17.

There is an old scenario dating back prior to TOAW III where I was upgrading the TO&E to reflect newer information. I was just about done when I noticed that the units’ strength had changed. It dropped by 75%, e.g., from a four to a one for the infantry regiments. I rebooted the computer to see if this would correct itself. It didn’t. Well, sometimes files become corrupted.

I decided to make a new scenario from the ground up not using anything from the one I had been working on. Having made the map I started making the units. I had made around 300 when I discovered that the strengths had reset themselves again. This time the strength was reduced by half. Without saving I closed the editor and shut down the computer. Today when I went to the editor I found I couldn’t access the scenario. I get this message: “the process cannot access the file because it is being used by another process” followed by “this version of TOAW cannot load this scenario.”

I decided to remove the game from the computer using the uninstall function from the menu and reinstall it using the CD. The 3.4.0 upgrade was installed in the game folder showing version 3.0.0.17. I get the same result. A spot check using the editor showed that of the ten scenarios or so I looked at half of them would load with the editor. The others wouldn’t. These would be a selection of old and new scenarios. Going to the game to see if they would load showed that half of them would. The other half brought up the same message as above. The scenarios I was able to load the strengths were correct.

Both scenarios where I encounter this problem have been saved. The newer one has a modified equipment list.

There is this as well. With some of these scenarios I tried going from play to select new scenario. I get the same message about being used by another process. Clicking okay only causes the popup error message to reappear. Clicking close does the same thing.

I have used the editor extensively over the years including BioEd and have never encountered this problem until now.

Thanks.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Editor bug (9/30/2013 10:54:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sertorius1

I’m going to call this an editor bug.

To start off I am using Windows XP Professional. There are 2 GBs of RAM. The HD has 40 GBs of which a quarter of it isn’t in use. The game has been on the HD for four years or so. It was installed using the CD and was version 3.0.0.17.

There is an old scenario dating back prior to TOAW III where I was upgrading the TO&E to reflect newer information. I was just about done when I noticed that the units’ strength had changed. It dropped by 75%, e.g., from a four to a one for the infantry regiments. I rebooted the computer to see if this would correct itself. It didn’t. Well, sometimes files become corrupted.


Counter strengths are scaled relative to the largest unit in the game. So, if you created a very large unit, it would cause all other units to re-scale in that fashion.

quote:

I decided to make a new scenario from the ground up not using anything from the one I had been working on. Having made the map I started making the units. I had made around 300 when I discovered that the strengths had reset themselves again. This time the strength was reduced by half. Without saving I closed the editor and shut down the computer. Today when I went to the editor I found I couldn’t access the scenario. I get this message: “the process cannot access the file because it is being used by another process” followed by “this version of TOAW cannot load this scenario.”

I decided to remove the game from the computer using the uninstall function from the menu and reinstall it using the CD. The 3.4.0 upgrade was installed in the game folder showing version 3.0.0.17. I get the same result. A spot check using the editor showed that of the ten scenarios or so I looked at half of them would load with the editor. The others wouldn’t. These would be a selection of old and new scenarios. Going to the game to see if they would load showed that half of them would. The other half brought up the same message as above. The scenarios I was able to load the strengths were correct.

Both scenarios where I encounter this problem have been saved. The newer one has a modified equipment list.

There is this as well. With some of these scenarios I tried going from play to select new scenario. I get the same message about being used by another process. Clicking okay only causes the popup error message to reappear. Clicking close does the same thing.

I have used the editor extensively over the years including BioEd and have never encountered this problem until now.

Thanks.


I've never run into that either. Sounds like something got corrupted.



Sertorius1 -> RE: Editor bug (10/1/2013 1:50:24 AM)

Bob,

I wasn’t aware that the units would rescale with an oversize unit. I’ve never encountered this before. I take your word for it because I am familiar with the fine work you’ve done with scenarios and design over the years.

I did learn early on that a unit can only have so much personnel and equipment added to it to the point where it wouldn’t gain anymore combat strength due to the map scale.

The first scenario where I attempted to re-work the TO&E is based on infantry divisions and motorized brigades for the Russians. All of these units held their values. The Germans are all regiments for the infantry and battalions for the armor. As these infantry regiments are the last units I worked with and are the 1944 Neu Art type. The scale is 10 KM with half week turns, so this shouldn’t be the problem I would believe.

The newer scenario was as above. At one point I decided that there were going to be too many units for the Soviets so I renamed it “Dnepr-Carpathian-Bde” and saved it in the event I had to use it. I made a copy of it with the name “Dnepr-Carpathian-Corps”. In this version instead of Red Army brigades for the mechanized and artillery units I made corps and divisions respectively. I particularly paid attention each time I added something to the template unit to see if it continued to gain strength. All did with the last addition and held it until this debacle occurred.

For the Germans I kept regiment/battalion scale. For them I made a panzer and infantry division and placed them on the map. This was how I noticed the loss of strength.

I can add this. To see if there might be some conflict with these scenarios I deleted the first one. When I tried to delete the brigade size one I wasn’t allowed. I closed the game and let the computer on for an antivirus scan I was running. When I came back I tried to delete the brigade scenario and was successful. (These two have been recovered and stored elsewhere.) This last attempt to use the editor to open the corps scenario got the same message as above, “another program is using this file” etc.

And this. I looked at the game files on the HD and discovered that not all of the game was removed with the uninstall application that comes with the game. The old scenarios are still there. It seems that years ago when I reinstalled the game just about everything was removed including the scenarios. In both cases I made copies of the scenarios to put back in the folders after re-installing. This leads me to believe that the only thing I can do now on my end is to go into my C drive and physically remove everything and attempt to use the CD again. I don’t think that downloading the game from Matrix would make any difference as I don’t believe the CD is the problem.

Any suggestions you might have on how to proceed here are appreciated, Bob.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Editor bug (10/1/2013 2:39:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sertorius1

Bob,

I wasn’t aware that the units would rescale with an oversize unit. I’ve never encountered this before. I take your word for it because I am familiar with the fine work you’ve done with scenarios and design over the years.

I did learn early on that a unit can only have so much personnel and equipment added to it to the point where it wouldn’t gain anymore combat strength due to the map scale.

The first scenario where I attempted to re-work the TO&E is based on infantry divisions and motorized brigades for the Russians. All of these units held their values. The Germans are all regiments for the infantry and battalions for the armor. As these infantry regiments are the last units I worked with and are the 1944 Neu Art type. The scale is 10 KM with half week turns, so this shouldn’t be the problem I would believe.

The newer scenario was as above. At one point I decided that there were going to be too many units for the Soviets so I renamed it “Dnepr-Carpathian-Bde” and saved it in the event I had to use it. I made a copy of it with the name “Dnepr-Carpathian-Corps”. In this version instead of Red Army brigades for the mechanized and artillery units I made corps and divisions respectively. I particularly paid attention each time I added something to the template unit to see if it continued to gain strength. All did with the last addition and held it until this debacle occurred.

For the Germans I kept regiment/battalion scale. For them I made a panzer and infantry division and placed them on the map. This was how I noticed the loss of strength.


The largest combat strength (whether attack or defense) in the game will be scaled to have a value no greater than 32. All other counter strengths will be scaled relative to that strength. So, look at the old version, and find the unit with a strength of about 32. Then find the unit in the modified version with a strength of about 32. Compare those units. If the newer one is much larger than the old one, that will account for the rescaling. If they are about the same strength (or are the same unit), then there won't be much rescaling.

quote:

I can add this. To see if there might be some conflict with these scenarios I deleted the first one. When I tried to delete the brigade size one I wasn’t allowed. I closed the game and let the computer on for an antivirus scan I was running. When I came back I tried to delete the brigade scenario and was successful. (These two have been recovered and stored elsewhere.) This last attempt to use the editor to open the corps scenario got the same message as above, “another program is using this file” etc.


Hmmm. Any chance it could have been the antivirus program that was using the file and causing the conflict?

quote:

And this. I looked at the game files on the HD and discovered that not all of the game was removed with the uninstall application that comes with the game. The old scenarios are still there. It seems that years ago when I reinstalled the game just about everything was removed including the scenarios. In both cases I made copies of the scenarios to put back in the folders after re-installing. This leads me to believe that the only thing I can do now on my end is to go into my C drive and physically remove everything and attempt to use the CD again. I don’t think that downloading the game from Matrix would make any difference as I don’t believe the CD is the problem.


The uninstall program hasn't been updated since the first release. So, scenarios and other things added since won't get removed by it, and will have to be removed manually.



Sertorius1 -> RE: Editor bug (10/1/2013 4:25:56 AM)

Bob,

There is one more patch that I missed, the version 3.4.0.202. The one I applied was the .151 version. The .202 was the patch I had on here previously. This .151 version didn’t sound right to my memory so I looked around. It has been applied and I can now open the scenario with the editor.

What you wrote about 32 being the highest value is interesting. There is one mechanized corps that was so heavily reinforced that it was the size of a small corps. I recall the value was around 32. This is one of the units I watched when I added the last bit of equipment to and noted that it did increase in strength. This was worth investigating so I removed it and the other mechanized corps from the scenario, save it under a different name and closed it.

When I reopened the scenario in the editor I was greeted with another strength reduction of one or two across the board.

Still, if this is the case (and it very well may be) it doesn’t explain why these other scenarios would be affected using either the editor or attempting to play a scenario or for that matter why the brigade version would reset in this manner. The infantry divisions (around 11-12) are far less than 32. The mech brigades even more so (7-4). I suppose what could have happen is that the unit values reset only after one hits the save button.

quote:

Hmmm. Any chance it could have been the antivirus program that was using the file and causing the conflict?


No, not in this case. I started the AV program after discovering this problem.

This is quite a mystery. For the moment I’ll leave it alone and look at it tomorrow.

Thanks for the replies.

Ryan



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Editor bug (10/1/2013 10:51:49 AM)

I don't think you need a version .151. I've done a few installs and go with 3.017 - 3.109 - 3.2297 - 3.4.202. I have success with that sequence.

Note that your strongest unit will always be at 32. If you start a new scenario and put in one unit with one squad, it will be at 32. The scale refreshes whenever you select another unit, it doesn't have to be saved.

Not sure if you are doing this, but whenever you move from the editor to a scenario, or each time you open a new scenario in the editor or in the game, close the program and start over. This is an old wives tale I like to tell based on past goofiness experienced.

It might be worth running a scenario dump sometimes, to see if you get any errors that the game might pick up. The dump isn't comprehensive, but could give a possible clue.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Editor bug (10/1/2013 3:44:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sertorius1

Bob,

There is one more patch that I missed, the version 3.4.0.202. The one I applied was the .151 version. The .202 was the patch I had on here previously. This .151 version didn’t sound right to my memory so I looked around. It has been applied and I can now open the scenario with the editor.


If you were using 3.4.0.151, then that could account for the issues with file loading - especially files made with later versions. And it could have had any number of residual issues and quirks beyond that. That was a beta release, not an official release.

The business of unit rescaling is not a bug. That's how TOAW has always worked: Biggest unit is a 32, everything else is scaled relative to that unit. Make a bigger unit and everything rescales.



Sertorius1 -> RE: Editor bug (10/2/2013 12:54:27 AM)

I believe you are right about the .151 file causing the loading problems. I did this. I gutted the entire game from the HD using the program removal application provided in XP. I followed this up by going into the C drive and physically removing anything left over resulting in a complete removal of the game. I re-installed the game only adding the 3.4.0.202 patch. A spot check indicates that things are running normally. Just so there isn’t any misunderstanding at the time I encounter this problem the .202 patch was being used. I simply screwed up with the re-installment yesterday; not having done this in four years and only belatedly remembered that were was a newer patch.

Moving along here I decided to conduct two experiments. I went to new scenario, set the scale and took a blank counter adding 161 T-34/85s. It strength was 31-10. I deleted this experiment. With this done I did a map save of the scenario I was working with, renamed it and added the modified equipment file. I then remade the biggest unit I’ve encountered, the mech corps, followed by a guards infantry division and a guards tank corps. For the Germans I remade an infantry regiment, a panzergrenadier regiment and a panzer regiment. I turned off the computer for a couple of hours and when I return the units hadn't changed. This is how they look on the map and the scenario dump:

Map strength:
Mech Corps 31-27

Unit:MECH CORPS,1st Formation (0)
Location:28,26.
General unit type (from 2d icon symbol):Mechanized
Size Equivalent:Corps, weight:5928.
Proficiency:60%, veteran
Readiness:100%
Supply Level:100%
Anti Armor Strength:19
Anti Personnel Strength:31
Anti Air Strength (High):0
Anti Air Strength:2
Defense Strength:27
Movement:33.

Guards Infantry Division 15-20
Unit:INF DIV,1st Formation (2)
Location:30,27.
General unit type (from 2d icon symbol):Infantry
Size Equivalent:Division, weight:1103.
Proficiency:55%, veteran
Readiness:100%
Supply Level:100%
Anti Armor Strength:7
Anti Personnel Strength:15
Anti Air Strength (High):0
Anti Air Strength:1
Defense Strength:20

Guards Tank Corps 24-14
Unit:GD TK CORPS,1st Formation (1)
Location:29,27.
General unit type (from 2d icon symbol):Tank
Size Equivalent:Corps, weight:5557.
Proficiency:65%, veteran
Readiness:100%
Supply Level:100%
Anti Armor Strength:18
Anti Personnel Strength:24
Anti Air Strength (High):0
Anti Air Strength:1
Defense Strength:14
Movement:33.

After the reset from the damaged scenario using motorized corps instead of brigades:

7 MECH CORPS,7 MECH CORPS (2244)
The unit is not currently deployed.
General unit type (from 2d icon symbol):Mechanized
Size Equivalent:Corps, weight:6016.
Proficiency:60%, veteran
Readiness:100%
Supply Level:100%
Anti Armor Strength:12
Anti Personnel Strength:20
Anti Air Strength (High):0
Anti Air Strength:1
Defense Strength:18

Unit:20 TK CORPS,20 TK CORPS (2246)
The unit is not currently deployed.
General unit type (from 2d icon symbol):Tank
Size Equivalent:Corps, weight:5628.
Proficiency:60%, veteran
Readiness:100%
Supply Level:100%
Anti Armor Strength:11
Anti Personnel Strength:14
Anti Air Strength (High):0
Anti Air Strength:1
Defense Strength:9
Movement:33.

Unit:89 GD RD,2 UKRAINIAN FRT (2220)
The unit is not currently deployed.
General unit type (from 2d icon symbol):Infantry
Size Equivalent:Division, weight:993.
Proficiency:60%, veteran
Readiness:100%
Supply Level:100%
Anti Armor Strength:4
Anti Personnel Strength:8
Anti Air Strength (High):0
Anti Air Strength:1
Defense Strength:11
Movement:18.

The discrepancy begs this question for y’all. Does the editor reset the values immediately or is there some sort of delay? What I have now lasted for hours in the damaged scenarios before the reduced strength values appeared.

I understand what you are telling me about 32 being the highest value and I believe that is a part of this. However, it doesn’t seem right for a unit to lose half of its strength in corps version while in the brigade version the personnel and equipment are far less for the motorized brigades. In this one the units lost between half of their strength for the motorized unit and three quarters for the infantry divisions.

As for the Germans the units I made they were close to the values I had originally.

Based on my observations I still believe that there was a bug in the editor, only it was my editor and not the game editor per se. The game has been on the HD for four years, so it is possible that at some point some wires got crossed and screwed it up. This would explain some of the bizarre things I’ve seen. We'll see how this pans out.

As much as I hate to I’m going to use this latest version and remake the units paying close attention for anything out of the ordinary. If I see anything I’ll post it here.
As things stand I don’t think any of the previous ones are playable. The reduced strengths would cause a player to spend more time looking at unit property sheets than at actual play.

I appreciate you taking the time to look this over and the information you’ve shown me. If you have any comments or insights about the above I would be interested to hear them.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Editor bug (10/2/2013 2:33:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sertorius1

After the reset from the damaged scenario using motorized corps instead of brigades:

7 MECH CORPS,7 MECH CORPS (2244)
The unit is not currently deployed.
General unit type (from 2d icon symbol):Mechanized
Size Equivalent:Corps, weight:6016.
Proficiency:60%, veteran
Readiness:100%
Supply Level:100%
Anti Armor Strength:12
Anti Personnel Strength:20
Anti Air Strength (High):0
Anti Air Strength:1
Defense Strength:18

Unit:20 TK CORPS,20 TK CORPS (2246)
The unit is not currently deployed.
General unit type (from 2d icon symbol):Tank
Size Equivalent:Corps, weight:5628.
Proficiency:60%, veteran
Readiness:100%
Supply Level:100%
Anti Armor Strength:11
Anti Personnel Strength:14
Anti Air Strength (High):0
Anti Air Strength:1
Defense Strength:9
Movement:33.

Unit:89 GD RD,2 UKRAINIAN FRT (2220)
The unit is not currently deployed.
General unit type (from 2d icon symbol):Infantry
Size Equivalent:Division, weight:993.
Proficiency:60%, veteran
Readiness:100%
Supply Level:100%
Anti Armor Strength:4
Anti Personnel Strength:8
Anti Air Strength (High):0
Anti Air Strength:1
Defense Strength:11
Movement:18.


The reason these units have reduced strength values is because there is another unit somewhere in the OOB that has been increased significantly - enough to rescale everything else. You need to look through the OOB till you find that unit (it will have a strength of 31 or 32). It could be on either side.



Sertorius1 -> RE: Editor bug (10/2/2013 3:48:06 AM)

Thanks, Bob. I'll do that.



Oberst_Klink -> RE: Editor bug (10/2/2013 10:19:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sertorius1

Thanks, Bob. I'll do that.

As Onkel Bob suggested, dump the .OOB and my suggestion is to use Notepad++ that makes it much easier to
search, edit and modify an OOB anyway.

Klink, Oberst



Sertorius1 -> RE: Editor bug (10/2/2013 2:04:53 PM)

Thank you, Herr Oberst.

I will have to check out Notepad++.

You have an interesting website. I will check it out as well.

Schultz



Sertorius1 -> RE: Editor bug (10/6/2013 12:49:02 AM)

Bob, all,

I looked at the OOB and deleted all of the offending units in an attempt to save the infantry divisions. It didn’t work but having the dump file on them this wasn’t a problem in remaking them.

After giving this some thought and playing I started to remake the OOB with some ideas of making certain units in an unconventional way. I trashed the idea of making the German units on regiment scale and opted for divisions with this difference. The antitank, recon and fusilier units would be made separate from the divisional counter, the service and support units would be placed in a HQ unit leaving the infantry and engineers, etc., as the main body, in short, a formation. While this means having to break the divisional main body down for deployment due to the frontages involved I consider the flexibility the Germans gain to more than offset this in addition to keeping faith with history.

The Russian tank and mechanized corps I did differently. I had concluded that I was trying to place 20 lbs of stuff in a 15 lbs bag, so I made a first and second echelon as a formation with the proper units in each one. This is keeping in line with Red Army doctrine while at the same time working the scenario to fit the game system. While this set up looks funny at first glance it not only has the proper combat power represented in the two echelons it also addresses stacking issues (with the help of the density combat penalty function). Of equal importance is that I will get the overall effect I’m looking for with this abstraction.

The source I’m using is Russian that was compiled in the late 1950s. It is quite comprehensive going down to battalion level. Because of the number of independent mortar, antitank, mortar rocket regiments I took two each and brigaded them as a means to hold down on the number of units. Using only two consolidated units allows me to show the regimental numbers for both units as well.

At this point I have surpassed the number of units made I have previously. Despite my precautions here I still had the reset occur. This time it was highly acceptable resulting in a loss of only 12-15% of the counter strength. I can live with this till the cows come home because the unit strengths are towards the high range and not the mess I had previously.

I am grateful for the replies everyone has posted here. This is very useful information and explains why some of the East Front scenarios are screwed up. I always believed that it was from a bad TO&E. Thanks again for the help, I consider the problem to be solved.

Ryan



Oberst_Klink -> RE: Editor bug (10/6/2013 9:02:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sertorius1

Bob, all,

I looked at the OOB and deleted all of the offending units in an attempt to save the infantry divisions. It didn’t work but having the dump file on them this wasn’t a problem in remaking them.

After giving this some thought and playing I started to remake the OOB with some ideas of making certain units in an unconventional way. I trashed the idea of making the German units on regiment scale and opted for divisions with this difference. The antitank, recon and fusilier units would be made separate from the divisional counter, the service and support units would be placed in a HQ unit leaving the infantry and engineers, etc., as the main body, in short, a formation. While this means having to break the divisional main body down for deployment due to the frontages involved I consider the flexibility the Germans gain to more than offset this in addition to keeping faith with history.

The Russian tank and mechanized corps I did differently. I had concluded that I was trying to place 20 lbs of stuff in a 15 lbs bag, so I made a first and second echelon as a formation with the proper units in each one. This is keeping in line with Red Army doctrine while at the same time working the scenario to fit the game system. While this set up looks funny at first glance it not only has the proper combat power represented in the two echelons it also addresses stacking issues (with the help of the density combat penalty function). Of equal importance is that I will get the overall effect I’m looking for with this abstraction.

The source I’m using is Russian that was compiled in the late 1950s. It is quite comprehensive going down to battalion level. Because of the number of independent mortar, antitank, mortar rocket regiments I took two each and brigaded them as a means to hold down on the number of units. Using only two consolidated units allows me to show the regimental numbers for both units as well.

At this point I have surpassed the number of units made I have previously. Despite my precautions here I still had the reset occur. This time it was highly acceptable resulting in a loss of only 12-15% of the counter strength. I can live with this till the cows come home because the unit strengths are towards the high range and not the mess I had previously.

I am grateful for the replies everyone has posted here. This is very useful information and explains why some of the East Front scenarios are screwed up. I always believed that it was from a bad TO&E. Thanks again for the help, I consider the problem to be solved.

Ryan


Let's exchange or OOB and TO&E and put it in dropbox? A good source for your undertaking, especially if you want to build Div.-size units, just use the WitE TO&E as guidelines. Drop me an email.

Klink, Oberst



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