RE: Trade Frustration

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Icemania -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/14/2013 12:49:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer OK, the Trade AI needs to be fixed and improved BADLY. I have 20 Chromium sources in operation. I have 620K Chromium stockpiled. I have ~300 Freighters in operation, all modified to the same 10 Bay design. AND! Not even a single unit of Chromium in transit after 6 game months of bases/worlds all screaming for Chromium. And the Advisers want to run smuggling missions for Chromium?!? What the bloody hell are the Freighters and Stockpile for if the Private Sector and Advisers are too damn stupid to use them? Grrrrr.... I completely agree the Private economy could be vastly improved. That said, I've long ago made peace that the Private economy is amazingly slow. What happens as further time goes by CyclopsSlayer? And BTW best to turn off those advisors, they should be fired!

Darkspire -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/14/2013 12:53:59 PM)
quote: And BTW and tur those advisors CylopsSlayer! Sublight communication breakdown captain [:D] Those advisers should most assuredly be turned off, even better show them the airlock [sm=Crazy-1271.gif] Darkspire

Icemania -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/14/2013 12:57:30 PM)
Fair crack of the old whip Darkspire! [;)] Fixed 3 minutes and 22 seconds before your post ... keep up! [8D]

Shark7 -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/14/2013 3:12:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer OK, the Trade AI needs to be fixed and improved BADLY. I have 20 Chromium sources in operation. I have 620K Chromium stockpiled. I have ~300 Freighters in operation, all modified to the same 10 Bay design. AND! Not even a single unit of Chromium in transit after 6 game months of bases/worlds all screaming for Chromium. And the Advisers want to run smuggling missions for Chromium?!? What the bloody hell are the Freighters and Stockpile for if the Private Sector and Advisers are too damn stupid to use them? Grrrrr.... Things to remember: 1. Every starport requires a certain amount of resources. The more starports you have, the more strain on your transports. My latest game has 40 colonies and 1 large starport at my capital, no other starports at all...and no resource shortages. Any abandoned star ports I acquire are retired to prevent problems. Once I am certain I have enough resources stockpiled and enough mines/freighters to keep up with demand, I will build a second starport. 2. Every starport will put resources in reserve that can not be moved. Obviously the more starports, the more reserve and the less you have to distribute to other places. In times of 'shortage' the starports will always have priority, so they get their shortages filled before anything else, and causes delays in other bases/planets. 3. Every time you upgrade mines, they require resources. Keep mine upgrades to a minimum if you do not want to have shortages due to that. Mines are low on the delivery priority list, so every time you upgrade it may take a while to get them all done. 4. The two most important resources you need are caslon and hydrogen (since they are your fuel sources)...followed by gold, lead, steel, iridium, chromium and carbon fibre (by my estimates). With Caslon and hydrogen being fuels, you can see you have need for very large stockpiles of them. The first thing I do in a game is order 4 gas mining stations to get caslon and hydrogen stockpiles started. 5. If you do run into a shortage, you get behind all around as the freighters attempt to fix shortage one and lower the priority of other needs. Its always best if you can prevent shortages in the first place. 6. The most important principle of all this: DO NOT EXPAND TOO QUICKLY! I cannot emphasize this enough, do not grow your empire faster than your economy can deal with. Each expansion brings in new planets needing resources, each new starport requires resources, each new base of any type requires resources, and all that requires more freighters...which have to be built before they can start transporting. You need mines before you need new colonies, starports, and defense bases, period.

Darkspire -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/14/2013 3:22:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icemania Fair crack of the old whip Darkspire! [;)] Fixed 3 minutes and 22 seconds before your post ... keep up! [8D] It just reminded me of a broken comms in Star Trek TOS, In my defense you sneaked in all ninja like and did the edit as I was playing with the GIF's on the other screen [:D] Darkspire

CyclopsSlayer -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/14/2013 7:43:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shark7 quote: ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer OK, the Trade AI needs to be fixed and improved BADLY. I have 20 Chromium sources in operation. I have 620K Chromium stockpiled. I have ~300 Freighters in operation, all modified to the same 10 Bay design. AND! Not even a single unit of Chromium in transit after 6 game months of bases/worlds all screaming for Chromium. And the Advisers want to run smuggling missions for Chromium?!? What the bloody hell are the Freighters and Stockpile for if the Private Sector and Advisers are too damn stupid to use them? Grrrrr.... Things to remember: 1. Every starport requires a certain amount of resources. ... 2. Every starport will put resources in reserve that can not be moved. ... 3. Every time you upgrade mines, they require resources. Keep mine upgrades to a minimum if you do not want to have shortages due to that. Mines are low on the delivery ... 4. The two most important resources you need are caslon and hydrogen (since they are your fuel sources)... 5. If you do run into a shortage, you get behind all around as the freighters attempt to fix shortage one and lower the priority of other needs. Its always best if you can prevent shortages in the first place. 6. The most important principle of all this: ... I understand that, I guess my point, minus the rage, is that an error message for lack of a resource there is plenty of on hand, should require at least a small amount of the resource in transit. I watched as closely as I could 0 Date - Did a global refit that involved many systems, improved Torps, Reactors, Engines, Shields, a few other things. ~6 months later - 20 Chromium Source in play, 620 K Chromium on hand, MANY Chromium shortage messages. NO Chromium in transit. Advisers request Chromium smuggling mission. ~1 year - Still 20 Chromium Sources in play, stockpile at 696K, all Chromium Shortage messages still in play, 0.3K Chromium in transit. Advisers still requesting Chromium smuggling. ~15 months - 19 Chromium Sources in play (one played out) increased mineral extraction rates, stockpile 724K. all Chromium shortages still in play, 1.2K in transit. Advisers still requesting Chromium smuggling. ~19 months - 19 sources, 760K stockpile, 15K Chromium in transit, demand finally being met. Advisers still requesting smuggling. My issue is, why would the game AI prefer to pay an enemy to smuggle a Resource that is currently abundant and available, only needing to be shipped. And at the same time refuse to ship a needed resource itself for more than a year and a half game time??? Seriously, if current naval merchant fleets handled resources in an fashion even remotely close to that, they'd be long out of business or shot for treason.

Darkspire -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/14/2013 8:01:36 PM)
Ahh, this rings a bell or three [:)] What is the race your playing? What is the default homeworld for that race? If they do not have Chromium on that type of homeworld then that may be the problem, I had similar problems a few years ago when I started playing DW, my problem was I was listening to the adviser and building as he directed and that my race were volcanic, sometimes Chromium can be generated very thinly and if your race does not have it on there default homeworld type then it can lead to shortages, even if you have a stock of it it just does not seem to get passed around. You have to have a search on the Galaxy Map and find where it is densest and then seed that area with mines and a few spaceports and make sure there is a good link of spaceports back to your empire from the Chromium area. Darkspire

CyclopsSlayer -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/14/2013 11:08:53 PM)
I was Akdarian with an Ocean homeworld. No Chromium in my home system, but several nearby planets, moons, and asteroids had it in plenty.

elanaagain -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/15/2013 5:26:20 AM)
Lets try again: IF a system has TWO colonies, and you follow the advice above to ONLY BUILD ONE Spaceport per system, THEN your secondary colony has no space port. In this specific situation, how do you get the resources from the secondary colony into your economy?

Darkspire -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/15/2013 6:52:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: elanaagain Lets try again: IF a system has TWO colonies, and you follow the advice above to ONLY BUILD ONE Spaceport per system, THEN your secondary colony has no space port. In this specific situation, how do you get the resources from the secondary colony into your economy? The idea of a spaceport per system is that the freighters in that system will move resources to the spaceport, having more than one per system is overkill and will kill your income, even on larger even on larger empires. So to reiterate, each colony will bring into existence new freighters, those freighters will move the resources from the colony without a spaceport to the colony with the spaceport in the system, the constructors will then get there requirements from the spaceport if needed. Look at the spaceport like a plughole, all the resources will flow into it from within the system, be it a mine, gas mine or colony, a collection point as it were. Darkspire

sbach2o -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/15/2013 8:52:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: elanaagain A poster above suggested only building one spaceport per system. So, if you don't build a second spaceport at the secondary colony (colonized planet/moon) in a system, how do you get the resources of that colony into play? Mining stations disappear when the colony is established... You do not need mining stations for a planet's resources to be in play. And a spaceport isn't required either. I suggest you watch what happens when you take over an indy planet. Half the merchant fleet will start moving there to strip it of all the accumulated ores and stuff. So having no spaceport on a colony makes sure most of its resources get shipped elsewhere. The advice of 'only one spaceport per system' isn't the best that can be offered. Actually, only a fraction of your settled planets should have spaceports. Eric suggested around 20%. Shark7 has even fewer, as he states above with good reason, although overexpansion arguably isn't the actual issue. I'd rather blame the extremely poor transport AI. By having many settled planets per spaceport you actually throw more and more freighters at the problem, to the point you drown it out in sheer mass. The number of freighters the civil sector tries to maintain is mostly determined by the number of colonies, not spaceports. One last remark about spaceport-less colonies: Just make sure you have a structure with medical center and recreation center (plus the obligatory commerce center) over each. These can be Defensive Bases or Starbase structures, and they make sure the population on the planet grows at a higher rate. I like to send Constructors to build these, as they are usually quicker and put less strain on the colonies' remaining resources. quote: ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer OK, the Trade AI needs to be fixed and improved BADLY. I have 20 Chromium sources in operation. I have 620K Chromium stockpiled. I have ~300 Freighters in operation, all modified to the same 10 Bay design. I am seeing this all the time, too. I am speculating a bit here, but I have often seen in this game what I am calling the 'locust swarm syndrome'. Meaning, our freighter fleets (and passenger ships, miners probably as well) are behaving like locusts plagues in that they concentrate in swarms on one thing at a time, thus lacking capacity for other urgent jobs. There is simply no balance. When the game identifies something that needs to be done it does this with all available means that become available. A need for Tyderios at your home planet at the head of the queue? Next idle freighter gets sent to service that need, and the next and next and so on, because fulfilling it takes time. You need Chromium? It's not at the head of the queue, so no luck there. Wait till it gets there (maybe a couple of game years from now)... Okay, this is pretty bad speculation on my side here, i.e. quite unfounded. What actually looks to match the behavioral patterns I am seeing, is that not needs on the consumer's side are driving the jobs the freighter fleets are performing, but actually the supplier's. When I take over an indy which has had a lot of time to accumulate mined goos, like mentioned above, there'll be a massive surplus of some materials. I can be pretty sure that an enormous swarm of freighters is going to flock there from all over. Those are then freighters being tied up for a long time and not available to other, more urgent jobs. Since conquering/colonizing independent colonies makes up a large part of the early to mid game, and the locust swarm feature repeats practically every time, I see this over and over. All that time the many mining stations I have put up are almost untouched by my merchant fleet, because the freighters are so focused on colonies with large stocks of this or that. I tend, because of a streak of idealism, to build a number of mining stations for all strategic resources around each production center (i.e. spaceport). I still do this although I know it is almost useless, because the stations are ignored for a long, long time. (Colonies without spaceports act like mining stations regarding this consideration, btw.) The primary use of these stations seems to consist in supplying smugglers and indie freighters, which in turn will, with painful delay, service the urgent needs of some constructor (can micromanage that to some degree) or secondary spaceport. In previous incarnations of DW, this situation relaxed later in a game (with exceptions where this or that bug seemed to hit me hard). I do not know how it stands now, since I didn't play far enough into a game yet (micromanaging all takes lots of time). I hope that mining stations get used more once the resource heavy imbalances (as perceived by the transport AI) are ironed out. It looks like the game engine has the priorities reversed, going like "where is the most to get, let's see where the surplus can be put to use?", instead of "where is the most urgent hole to plug?". Note, this is still speculation, but matches observation better than my initial ramblings. Ironically, it seems to have gotten better, compared with Legends. Just not good, only that tiny noticable but still not satisfying bit better. The locust swarm behavior tended to be very prominent with passenger ships in earlier DW versions. In RotS, they would for exmple, in a developed empire with several planets at max population, completely overrun the dock yards of one single planet, queueing up by the dozen or hundreds, managing to move off a couple billion inhabitants, then move on. Same when it came to delivering tourists to resort bases where one resort out of many available was vastly prefered. Back then I could also see ridiculous freighter queues at planets with the rarer luxury resources (note, the rarer ones like 'Bifurian Silk', not the special luxuries which weren't distributed at all after some point).

sbach2o -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/15/2013 9:04:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icemania quote: ORIGINAL: sbach2o [... discussion about where constructors pick up their materials and using fake orders to get them to pick their load where you want ...] Ermmm... I am almost sure it doesn't work this way. Like I am hinting at in my original post, I have seen a constructor I had manually moved to my homeworld going to the (hopelessly understocked) spaceport closest to the construction site to pick up materials. Note, I only let things like this happen once, so I didn't try again. Except, I didn't know about the merits of fake orders for a long time, so I could (less attentively) watch my constructors failing over and over. Should I try again? Or is there a trick about how close a constructor must be to a given planet for it to choose that for materials? Yes try again sback2o as I play every early/mid game this way and I can't recall seeing the behaviour you described. Make sure your constructors are set to manual control and note I only give me them a command to build when they arrive at the homeworld / key world. Well, my last questions where actually rethoric. But I did try again, and again found what I always saw: a constructor picks up its materials at the spaceport closest to the building site, not at the spaceport which is closest when the order is issued. This time I really made an effort. I sent one constructor to the planet, the other to the spaceport over it. I tried when the constructors were just almost at the target and the other times awaited the idle messages with one constructor sitting squat over the planet. I issued orders through the right-click menu over the intended construction site and via expansion planner (which I rarely use otherwise, it is more of a pain when controlling manually). The result was always the same. The constructor immediately set course to a spaceport closer to the intended construction site (a gas mining station, if that matters). So, we either play different games (I am on the current version 1.9.0.11, btw.) or there is something subtly different in our game environments (thinking of empire policy, but there is no candidate there).

Canute0 -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/15/2013 11:39:13 AM)
quote: Well, my last questions where actually rethoric. But I did try again, and again found what I always saw: a constructor picks up its materials at the spaceport closest to the building site, not at the spaceport which is closest when the order is issued. Sorry but that is against my expierence. The Constructor only switch to another Spaceport when the closest one don't got the nessesary resources. quote: 1. Every starport requires a certain amount of resources. The more starports you have, the more strain on your transports. My latest game has 40 colonies and 1 large starport at my capital, no other starports at all...and no resource shortages. Any abandoned star ports I acquire are retired to prevent problems. Once I am certain I have enough resources stockpiled and enough mines/freighters to keep up with demand, I will build a second starport. Sorry Starports don't need any resources to operate. They need resources to build ships, for you or for the private sector. But the only 1 Spaceport strategy is interesting. Mining ships only deliver mined resources to Spaceport so far i notice. I think Freighter who pickup resources from a mining base deliver them to a spaceport too, but not sure. That means all resource income are concentrate at this Spaceport, thats why you don't got any resource shortage there. But thats only a strategy to avoid the messages but at long term not a good way for your fleet logistics. quote: 2. Every starport will put resources in reserve that can not be moved. Maybe you didn't notice so far what these reserved mean. When there are some reserved resources at the cargo are, that means there is a freighter underway to pickup these and move it to somewhere else where it is needed. When it is reserved by another empire it will be sold to that empire. quote: 3. Every time you upgrade mines, they require resources. Thats why Auto. Design and Auto retrofit are so deadly for the economy, when you are allready on a shorttage of some resources.

Bingeling -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/15/2013 12:14:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canute When there are some reserved resources at the cargo are, that means there is a freighter underway to pickup these and move it to somewhere else where it is needed. When it is reserved by another empire it will be sold to that empire. They are 1: Reserved for construction 2: Reserved for an incoming freighter (or construction ship?) 3: Fuel reserved for a refueling ship 4: Bugged (stuck) And possibly 5: Some luxuries reserved for consumption. As far as I know, those with foreign flags are of category 2, which frequently become category 4. A colony being conquered can possibly have some oddities in its stores. I guess foreign powers that refuel have some category 3s as well.

Icemania -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/15/2013 4:27:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer I watched as closely as I could 0 Date - Did a global refit that involved many systems, improved Torps, Reactors, Engines, Shields, a few other things. ~6 months later - 20 Chromium Source in play, 620 K Chromium on hand, MANY Chromium shortage messages. NO Chromium in transit. Advisers request Chromium smuggling mission. ~1 year - Still 20 Chromium Sources in play, stockpile at 696K, all Chromium Shortage messages still in play, 0.3K Chromium in transit. Advisers still requesting Chromium smuggling. ~15 months - 19 Chromium Sources in play (one played out) increased mineral extraction rates, stockpile 724K. all Chromium shortages still in play, 1.2K in transit. Advisers still requesting Chromium smuggling. ~19 months - 19 sources, 760K stockpile, 15K Chromium in transit, demand finally being met. Advisers still requesting smuggling. My issue is, why would the game AI prefer to pay an enemy to smuggle a Resource that is currently abundant and available, only needing to be shipped. And at the same time refuse to ship a needed resource itself for more than a year and a half game time??? Seriously, if current naval merchant fleets handled resources in an fashion even remotely close to that, they'd be long out of business or shot for treason. Our experience is the same, it takes time for transit to happen. I agree with your point, this is a topic for future releases, but here and now I focus only what I can control. I ignore advisers, as they are daft. I assume transit is slow as my control over the private economy is limited. Build bases in key resources as quickly as possible. Accept the fact upgrading bases will take time. Build fleets at homeworld / key worlds only etc.

Icemania -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/15/2013 4:48:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sbach2o quote: ORIGINAL: Icemania Yes try again sback2o as I play every early/mid game this way and I can't recall seeing the behaviour you described. Make sure your constructors are set to manual control and note I only give me them a command to build when they arrive at the homeworld / key world. Well, my last questions where actually rethoric. But I did try again, and again found what I always saw: a constructor picks up its materials at the spaceport closest to the building site, not at the spaceport which is closest when the order is issued. This time I really made an effort. I sent one constructor to the planet, the other to the spaceport over it. I tried when the constructors were just almost at the target and the other times awaited the idle messages with one constructor sitting squat over the planet. I issued orders through the right-click menu over the intended construction site and via expansion planner (which I rarely use otherwise, it is more of a pain when controlling manually). The result was always the same. The constructor immediately set course to a spaceport closer to the intended construction site (a gas mining station, if that matters). So, we either play different games (I am on the current version 1.9.0.11, btw.) or there is something subtly different in our game environments (thinking of empire policy, but there is no candidate there). Again, I play every game this way, and have done so for quite some time. 1. What resources does the contructor require for the job you have assigned? 2. What resources are freely available at the planet where you sent the constructor? 3. What resources are available at the spaceport "close to the intended construction site"? 4. Preferably post other information for the game you are playing preferably screenshots,

Shark7 -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/15/2013 5:35:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sbach2o quote: ORIGINAL: elanaagain A poster above suggested only building one spaceport per system. So, if you don't build a second spaceport at the secondary colony (colonized planet/moon) in a system, how do you get the resources of that colony into play? Mining stations disappear when the colony is established... You do not need mining stations for a planet's resources to be in play. And a spaceport isn't required either. I suggest you watch what happens when you take over an indy planet. Half the merchant fleet will start moving there to strip it of all the accumulated ores and stuff. So having no spaceport on a colony makes sure most of its resources get shipped elsewhere. The advice of 'only one spaceport per system' isn't the best that can be offered. Actually, only a fraction of your settled planets should have spaceports. Eric suggested around 20%. Shark7 has even fewer, as he states above with good reason, although overexpansion arguably isn't the actual issue. I'd rather blame the extremely poor transport AI. By having many settled planets per spaceport you actually throw more and more freighters at the problem, to the point you drown it out in sheer mass. The number of freighters the civil sector tries to maintain is mostly determined by the number of colonies, not spaceports. One last remark about spaceport-less colonies: Just make sure you have a structure with medical center and recreation center (plus the obligatory commerce center) over each. These can be Defensive Bases or Starbase structures, and they make sure the population on the planet grows at a higher rate. I like to send Constructors to build these, as they are usually quicker and put less strain on the colonies' remaining resources. quote: ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer OK, the Trade AI needs to be fixed and improved BADLY. I have 20 Chromium sources in operation. I have 620K Chromium stockpiled. I have ~300 Freighters in operation, all modified to the same 10 Bay design. I am seeing this all the time, too. I am speculating a bit here, but I have often seen in this game what I am calling the 'locust swarm syndrome'. Meaning, our freighter fleets (and passenger ships, miners probably as well) are behaving like locusts plagues in that they concentrate in swarms on one thing at a time, thus lacking capacity for other urgent jobs. There is simply no balance. When the game identifies something that needs to be done it does this with all available means that become available. A need for Tyderios at your home planet at the head of the queue? Next idle freighter gets sent to service that need, and the next and next and so on, because fulfilling it takes time. You need Chromium? It's not at the head of the queue, so no luck there. Wait till it gets there (maybe a couple of game years from now)... Okay, this is pretty bad speculation on my side here, i.e. quite unfounded. What actually looks to match the behavioral patterns I am seeing, is that not needs on the consumer's side are driving the jobs the freighter fleets are performing, but actually the supplier's. When I take over an indy which has had a lot of time to accumulate mined goos, like mentioned above, there'll be a massive surplus of some materials. I can be pretty sure that an enormous swarm of freighters is going to flock there from all over. Those are then freighters being tied up for a long time and not available to other, more urgent jobs. Since conquering/colonizing independent colonies makes up a large part of the early to mid game, and the locust swarm feature repeats practically every time, I see this over and over. All that time the many mining stations I have put up are almost untouched by my merchant fleet, because the freighters are so focused on colonies with large stocks of this or that. I tend, because of a streak of idealism, to build a number of mining stations for all strategic resources around each production center (i.e. spaceport). I still do this although I know it is almost useless, because the stations are ignored for a long, long time. (Colonies without spaceports act like mining stations regarding this consideration, btw.) The primary use of these stations seems to consist in supplying smugglers and indie freighters, which in turn will, with painful delay, service the urgent needs of some constructor (can micromanage that to some degree) or secondary spaceport. In previous incarnations of DW, this situation relaxed later in a game (with exceptions where this or that bug seemed to hit me hard). I do not know how it stands now, since I didn't play far enough into a game yet (micromanaging all takes lots of time). I hope that mining stations get used more once the resource heavy imbalances (as perceived by the transport AI) are ironed out. It looks like the game engine has the priorities reversed, going like "where is the most to get, let's see where the surplus can be put to use?", instead of "where is the most urgent hole to plug?". Note, this is still speculation, but matches observation better than my initial ramblings. Ironically, it seems to have gotten better, compared with Legends. Just not good, only that tiny noticable but still not satisfying bit better. The locust swarm behavior tended to be very prominent with passenger ships in earlier DW versions. In RotS, they would for exmple, in a developed empire with several planets at max population, completely overrun the dock yards of one single planet, queueing up by the dozen or hundreds, managing to move off a couple billion inhabitants, then move on. Same when it came to delivering tourists to resort bases where one resort out of many available was vastly prefered. Back then I could also see ridiculous freighter queues at planets with the rarer luxury resources (note, the rarer ones like 'Bifurian Silk', not the special luxuries which weren't distributed at all after some point). As you point out, having a base over the planet with the medical and recreation facilities is a must. I personally use a starbase design that is small enough that it can be built anywhere, but also has adequate defenses to act as both defense base and orbital facility....which I also add research modules to. I do believe in multi-tasking. [;)]

CyclopsSlayer -> RE: Trade Frustration (10/15/2013 7:28:07 PM)
Yes, the swarming behavior is quite annoying and still around. -Multiple Resorts, one is at max pop, one has some few guests, several others with no guests at all. -The entire empire deciding it MUST all refuel at the same Gas Mine. Said mine is no where nearly capable of handling the demand, but still they hover. -An abandoned Star Base in an asteroid belt that is suddenly the only base capable of Construction and Refits, at least from the list queued there and no where else you'd think it was the only Yards in existence. -Ordering new Colony Ships, Construction ships, or other such at a new colony, rather than a close by and much more populous colony.

Icemania -> RE: Trade Frustration (12/11/2013 1:49:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icemania As an example, manual control of constructors to ensure they are supplied from planets such as your homeworld with extensive resource supply and to ensure build order optimisation. [...] quote: ORIGINAL: sbach2o This got my attention. I am reading that like you have found a way to make a constructor pick its construction materials from a specific spaceport? If that is true, I am stumped. In my experience, all constructors will always pick up their materials from the spaceport closest to the construction site. Here's one instance of the game trying to optimize for trip distance where it is absolutely useless. Wait a minute, right now I am thinking of something: you could fake-order your constructor to build a structure close to your well-stocked capital and, once it has picked up the resources, stop it and issue the real order. Well, here you go, you always learn something new... Of course, you have to catch that constructor before it starts building at the fake-site or you'll have wasted part of your investment on some useless or unimportant structure. Okay, in earnest: this is a crass example of the kind of dirty trickery you can apply to bend this game to your will. Of course micromanagement will get you out of almost any hole in DW. I don't know whether this is a blessing or a curse, though. The game must be balanced against players who do not micromanage much, or all would be pressed into doing this. The alternative of improving most automatisms to the point that a micromanager can't do much better can be safely dismissed. I do not think it is feasible with the scale of the game and just one programmer working on it. quote: ORIGINAL: Icemania There is no need for fake-orders and dirty tricks. For simplicity let's say it's early game. I move Constructors to my homeworld. Then I command them to build a structure and they take resources from the homeworld. When finished building I move them back to my homeworld. quote: ORIGINAL: sbach2o Ermmm... I am almost sure it doesn't work this way. Like I am hinting at in my original post, I have seen a constructor I had manually moved to my homeworld going to the (hopelessly understocked) spaceport closest to the construction site to pick up materials. Note, I only let things like this happen once, so I didn't try again. Except, I didn't know about the merits of fake orders for a long time, so I could (less attentively) watch my constructors failing over and over. quote: ORIGINAL: Icemania Yes try again sback2o as I play every early/mid game this way and I can't recall seeing the behaviour you described. Make sure your constructors are set to manual control and note I only give me them a command to build when they arrive at the homeworld / key world. quote: ORIGINAL: sbach2o Well, my last questions where actually rethoric. But I did try again, and again found what I always saw: a constructor picks up its materials at the spaceport closest to the building site, not at the spaceport which is closest when the order is issued. I've narrowed down the communication disconnect on this. Early game, as soon as practically possible, I build all the mining stations needed to ensure I have abundant strategic resources and almost all luxuries abundant. I have only one very large spaceport (new colonies have starbases) so the construction will always be stocked from my homeworld where resources are abundant. The construction ships are on manual but human control is vastly superior to auto with respect to the order and logic of base building. The micro is not intensive as it's typically no more than 25-30 mining stations. Mid game, my constructors focus on repairing ships primarily in debris fields. They are on manual control to ensure they perform the expected task. The micro is not extensive as repairs take time. As you will notice in my posts I do not mention late game. By the time repairing ships is complete, and I start to consider building mining bases elsewhere with many spaceports, resources are so massively abundant that I completely stop tracking movement of construction ships. This explains why I have never seen the behaviour you have described. Again, there is no need for fake-orders and dirty tricks to avoid resource shortages.

Lightbane -> RE: Trade Frustration (12/12/2013 1:27:24 PM)
I was sitting waiting for resources to get to my front line system so I could build a space port and defense platforms, nothing came... so I checked my tech list. I didn't have cargo tech or fuel cells researched, when I researched advanced cargo and advanced fuel cells, suddenly a legion of freighters rocks up to the planet and drops all the needed resources on it. You can also supplement with smuggling missions. If nothing is getting to your resource shortage, you have likely one of two things happening. 1. Poor fuel capacity/storage capacity (either research the tech optimizations or manually alter the ship designs and add more cells and cargo bays) 2. A lot of construction all at the same time spreads out your freight fleet, they all go to the closest destination first so it queues up if there aren't enough ships in your fleet. Your colonies will automatically send out requests for needed supplies, but they won't receive any if the planet is out of range of your closest supply route, if you colonize a planet further away then your freight fuel capacity it won't be getting any resources to build things.

Plant -> RE: Trade Frustration (12/12/2013 2:51:27 PM)
So, did anybody confirm this? quote: Original:sbach2o But I did try again, and again found what I always saw: a constructor picks up its materials at the spaceport closest to the building site, not at the spaceport which is closest when the order is issued.

Spacecadet -> RE: Trade Frustration (12/12/2013 8:18:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plant So, did anybody confirm this? quote: Original:sbach2o But I did try again, and again found what I always saw: a constructor picks up its materials at the spaceport closest to the building site, not at the spaceport which is closest when the order is issued. This is how it works in Shadows the last I tested it. Even if the closest Spaceport to the Construction site doesn't have all the materials needed, that is where the Constructor will go for Resources. This is one reason I don't like finding Spaceports out in the middle of nowhere - they usually don't have adequate resources to build much nearby so you end up with stalls.

drmario89 -> RE: Trade Frustration (12/12/2013 10:01:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Spacecadet This is one reason I don't like finding Spaceports out in the middle of nowhere - they usually don't have adequate resources to build much nearby so you end up with stalls. I always scrap those random spaceports when I find them. I would love to see constructors go to the spaceport with the most resources it's building project requires as opposed to their current behavior.

zenkmander -> RE: Trade Frustration (12/12/2013 10:07:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmario89 I would love to see constructors go to the spaceport with the most resources it's building project requires as opposed to their current behavior. Hear, hear!

Plant -> RE: Trade Frustration (12/13/2013 5:42:13 PM)
Thanks Space cadet. Constructors really should only requisition materials from a spaceport if the spaceport has enough materials.

dejagore -> RE: Trade Frustration (1/15/2014 7:50:11 PM)
Need some help in the 'trade frustration topic' I guess. After reading Shark7 advices regarding number of spaceports and making custom star bases with recreation/medical/commerce module only (and probably some shield, wepons etc) I also cutomized designs for Resort Bases/Defensive bases etc. For the custom designed bases like the Resort or Defensive one I did NOT include any Cargo Storage. After a while, Ive upgraded design for them and realized that none of them was retrofitting (after manual retrofit order). I waited few years ingame and still nothing. OK - thought that's probably because I wiped out those Cargo Storage modules. I scrapped those bases and created new design which DO included Cargo Storages. For the testing reasons I have manually upgraded them and of course they were retrofitted in no time. Then after few another years ingame Ive checked their Cargo Storage and was amazed that ALL of the Defensive Bases / Resorts etc had stuff like 'Dantha Fur', 'Megallos Nut', 'Vodkol', 'Lead' etc and most of them had 'RESERVED' status (?!?). Actually my freighters were delivering to all those bases resources which the do not need ? Isn't this another bottleneck for so called 'trade frustration' topic ? I guess resources are not being redistributed wisely when private sector freighters are moving them to Defense bases with no reason ? Anyone got any thoughts regarding this scenario ? Is it really necessary to have Cargo Storage to be able to retrofit base ? And as a result of this have crazy logistics in empire ?

Spidey -> RE: Trade Frustration (1/15/2014 8:31:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmario89 I would love to see constructors go to the spaceport with the most resources it's building project requires as opposed to their current behavior. Suppose that space port is on the other side of your empire, some five sectors away? You'd order a mine on a nearby chunk of metals and the construction ship would head off on a looong ten sector journey to the edge of your empire and back. And this effect would only get increasingly worse, as your empire expands and expands from its initial location at the edge of the galaxy, since your homeworld is rather likely to have the biggest stockpile of most of the strategic resources. quote: Then after few another years ingame Ive checked their Cargo Storage and was amazed that ALL of the Defensive Bases / Resorts etc had stuff like 'Dantha Fur', 'Megallos Nut', 'Vodkol', 'Lead' etc and most of them had 'RESERVED' status (?!?). Actually my freighters were delivering to all those bases resources which the do not need ? If they're delivering luxuries then I'm inclined to believe that the civilians are simply delivering stuff that gives the planet bonuses. Luxuries increase planetary development and some resources give a racial bonus. Therefore you'll want the private sector to drop some of those resources off.

CyclopsSlayer -> RE: Trade Frustration (1/15/2014 10:55:20 PM)
If a base/port is built at a planet, then the planet below provides essentially infinite storage capacity. Never need more than 1 cargo bay unless the base/port is placed in open space.

Bingeling -> RE: Trade Frustration (1/16/2014 9:09:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dejagore Then after few another years ingame Ive checked their Cargo Storage and was amazed that ALL of the Defensive Bases / Resorts etc had stuff like 'Dantha Fur', 'Megallos Nut', 'Vodkol', 'Lead' etc and most of them had 'RESERVED' status (?!?). I hazard a guess that those defensive bases (and resorts?) were built at colonies. Any base built at a colony does share its storage with the colony. So the cargo of the defensive base is the cargo of the colony, and the colony has reserved luxuries for consumption (that is the luxury part of the economy).

feygan -> RE: Trade Frustration (1/16/2014 10:41:15 AM)
The issue of spaceports hogging resources is easily solved if you changed your mindset to ports/bases orbiting planets. The "spaceport" hull type has an inbuilt function it seems to require certain resources all the time, thus if you have them on every planet you quickly get shortages all over your empire even when it looks like you have a well serviced infrastructure. ~For me the workaround is to design different types of bases, I try to think of these similar to earth based airports. You may well be able to handle lots of capacity in a large international port, but it takes lots of maintaining to operate at full efficiency for all it's given services. By contrast a small local airport will only have perhaps a single runway and a couple of basic shops, thus needing less operating materials and personal. For my games I tend to work with spaceport hulls as the equivalent of an international port. You never need more than one of these in a system as it handles all the inter system transports & passengers. From galactic to system level you get small port, which for me are custom designed bases using the "other base" hull type. In addition to this I will sometimes use different sized spaceports if only to combine functions into a large complex (including research, construction etc). If I ever acquire anything classed as a spaceport that does not orbit a planet I scrap it due to problems it can cause. To sum this up here is a list of how my infrastructure would work for a large established empire in ascending order. 1. Minor planet or outpost - These have little to no income value and so have nothing orbiting them. 2. Established planet - These are now generating an income and have a small base orbiting them that consists of the following (medical, recreation, finance, docking bay), all this is for is to give a boost to the growth of the planet and thus it's credit value. If they happen to be in a dangerous boarder section it may include some minor defences also. 3. System capital - This is generally the planet with the overall best potential for population capacity or most value in mining output. Here is the first time I use an actual "spaceport", depending on the location will determine the amount of defences it has, and shipyard capacity. 4. Galactic capital - This is usually my homeworld, thus generally my largest spaceport and often contains both large shipyard capacity and lots of research labs. With this method I find the only real time I suffer shortages is during mass upgrades where there is perhaps 200 or more of a unit model being upgraded by a large amount, this tends to be a short temporary issue though. Occasionally I will use specialised research bases or shipyards if for some reason I don't want my eggs in one basket or just for RP. But overall I find once you adopt your mindset into seeing different types of spaceport and designing bases to fit the role all your shortage issues dissolve.

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