Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (Full Version)

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BletchleyGeek -> Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/10/2013 2:02:10 PM)

After a quick glance over the scenarios, I found "The Pied Piper" to be a very reasonably sized one that poses quite a few interesting operational problems. I'm still through my first play, and my bold plan to do an advanced defense in depth (i.e. covering the minefields to the east) doesn't seem to be a very sound one, since the Soviet forces have enough firepower to pin down my forces (and killing or flanking them before I have a chance to withdraw).

There's a lot of points east of Hameln and it strikes me that giving all those points for free to the Soviets is a bad idea - given the very limited forces at my disposal it's very unlikely that the Germans are going to bounce back... So I'd love to hear ideas about how to approach this scenario [:)]



Mad Russian -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/10/2013 3:21:42 PM)

First, you don't have to defend every point on the map to win. Units are costly to lose. Very likely more costly than the value of what they are defending if you aren't careful.

I would tell you that the AI seems to move slowly at first but then once you have committed your forces and the AI determines your defense it will act what seems to be with lightning speed. It's very hard to stop an advance that is, "on the move".

Second, use your artillery to your advantage. You can turn the FDC on and off at will so if you need a spot hit turn it off and then once you get the fire mission(s) you wanted turn it back on.

The West Germans are probably the toughest units man for man in the game. [&o]

All the units on the OOB Tree that are shaded are reinforcements that will arrive during the battle. They will help you retain control of the main river bridges...hopefully. [:D]

Good Hunting.

MR



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/10/2013 5:18:23 PM)

I just ran through this as the Germans, and got a tactical victory. I deployed the initial armor (Leo Is) to the south of the larger river, with two platoons in fortified positions and one deployed with screen orders sort of in between at a river bend. I put the Marders north, screening the initial river crossings. As expected, the Soviet forces were too much for the Panzergrendadiers to hold, but they took a lot of losses pushing the infantry back; though they ultimately wiped out my infantry, it took them some time and they incurred a lot of disruption.

The armor did better; I ended the game with the HQ and most of one platoon still intact. The others sold themselves dearly, leaving many dead Soviet tanks to their front.

What was odd though is that once I got my reinforcements, and funneled them into the main VP locations in Hammeln itself, the Soviets...did nothing. The game ended with them not moving from the initial VP locations, except for some light recon probing on the central axis. Once their BDRMs were dead, they just stopped. The game ended with the entire Soviet force sitting there in the first town/group of villages across the first VP bridges. They were at high readiness, and never hit the threshold for scenario end, but they sure as hell lost the drive to push on. Of course, it was raining cats and dogs, and visibility was down to one hex--with all their recon shot up, maybe they were totally blind and decided not to risk BTRs? Dunno.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/10/2013 5:47:27 PM)

Every time I've played Pied Piper it has played out a bit differently. I don't use the same strategy every time and the AI seems to mix things up as well. Setting traps for the Soviets where you can engage them from the flanks as well as the front works best for me and rushing up too quickly usually results in serious losses for my Germans. You need to defend forward of your starting positions, but that initial meeting engagement can be brutal if you're not careful.

Regards,

- Erik



Plodder -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/10/2013 9:45:03 PM)

quote:

What was odd though is that once I got my reinforcements, and funneled them into the main VP locations in Hammeln itself, the Soviets...did nothing. The game ended with them not moving from the initial VP locations, except for some light recon probing on the central axis. Once their BDRMs were dead, they just stopped. The game ended with the entire Soviet force sitting there in the first town/group of villages across the first VP bridges. They were at high readiness, and never hit the threshold for scenario end, but they sure as hell lost the drive to push on. Of course, it was raining cats and dogs, and visibility was down to one hex--with all their recon shot up, maybe they were totally blind and decided not to risk BTRs? Dunno.


Had the exact same thing happen to me.



freightweezul -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/11/2013 5:06:04 AM)

In my 1st try the total lack in any recon units in the Bundeswehr force was crippling, and the weather closed in to 500m visibility favoring the attackers. I never did spot any of the Soviet recon units... When the scenario ended I was shocked at how close they were, but my Leopard 2's in the heavy rain couldn't see them.

The time/distance was a problem for the German reinforcements. Even rushing by route march they never got into action, partly owing to the wretched weather and partly to the Red Steamroller running out of steam on its own and having to pause for resupply. I eecked out a 77% tactical victory due to the Motostrelki parking in my mine fields in front of 2 platoons of elite Leopard 1A1A1's who racked up 22kills each and spotted for effective arty fire. I was surprised that the Germans have no DPICM ammo for the arty units, and no recon of any kind. Just a couple sections of Fuchs or Luchs would have been golden.



cbelva -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/11/2013 5:31:02 AM)

The heavy rain can affect the Leopard's thermal sights.

We are looking into the reports that the AI is not attacking in Pied Piper. Hopefully we will get a handle on this shortly.



CapnDarwin -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/11/2013 1:23:13 PM)

Good hot tip of the day: thermal sights can be degraded in effective range by both weather (rain) and time of day (dawn and dusk).



trebcourie -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/11/2013 8:32:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Good hot tip of the day: thermal sights can be degraded in effective range by both weather (rain) and time of day (dawn and dusk).


Does smoke have *any* effect on the at all? Or is it pointless to dump smoke on the Americans?



Mad Russian -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/11/2013 9:11:01 PM)

It's hard for me to dump smoke on the American TANKS!!! [:-]

Other US units MIGHT be affected by smoke. [&:]

The rest of NATO or Soviet units...the song "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" comes to mind. [:D]

Good Hunting.

MR



cbelva -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/11/2013 9:36:31 PM)

Smoke does not affect units with thermal sights like units without. In fact, units without thermals are at big disadvantage. I consider thermal sights the biggest force multiplier in the game. I have a scenario I have been working on where the NATO units don't have thermals. It is a different game for NATO. Their biggest advantage has been taken away and the Soviets are able to move in closer with more intact vehicles and just pound on them.



mekjak -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/12/2013 3:13:03 AM)

I barely eked out a sudden death tactical victory after playing this scenario for the first time. My initial deployment was really dumb - I placed all my starting units as far forward as possible. The Leo 1s and Marders were dispersed widely around Am Schecken and Hasperde. Soviet armor advanced towards Hasperde in the north while their infantry moved towards Am Schecken in the south. The Leos in front of their tanks caused minor losses before being brushed aside, while my infantry deployed in town hexes put up stiff resistance before being overwhelmed (15+ tanks between them). A single Leo 1 platoon dug in around Am Schecken destroyed the bulk of an entire Soviet infantry battalion as they got tangled up in minefields. The Soviet armor was finally stopped at Rohrsen by counterattacking Leo 2s, while the remnants of the Soviet infantry reached Sudstadt, almost crossing into Hameln proper before they could go no further - many of the survivors were at 15% readiness or less when the battle ended.

Couple of things I noticed:

One of my Leo 1 platoons, moving deliberately in heavy wooded cover, was entirely wiped out by a single shot from a T-80 company - all 4 tanks destroyed, in woods, by a single salvo before they could get off a shot, and at medium to long range too. Really frustrating, but then again another Leo 1 platoon racked up 30+ APC and infantry kills.

The Soviet tanks and infantry split up along entirely different axes of advance, so they were not able to support each other at all. The AI also seemed to feed battalions piecemeal into the attack. Maybe just a byproduct of their deployment, but I'll play the scenario again to see if they do something different.

In this instance I didn't see the lack of offensive drive that others have been reporting. I did deploy far forward so much of the battle was fought way ahead of Hameln, but Soviet units got pretty close to the city by the end. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't pay attention to weather conditions at all, but a decimated T-80 company managed to destroy 2 Leo 2s from 3 hexes away while remaining unspotted.



Mad Russian -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/12/2013 3:37:10 AM)

Modern warfare has one axiom.

"If you can see it, you can hit it.

If you can hit it, you can kill it."


Many times, if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, you don't get a chance to fix it.

Good Hunting.

MR



henri51 -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/14/2013 1:29:10 AM)

The discussion on thermals reminds me of a story that I was told happened to the Van Doos here in Quebec. They got some vehicles with thermal sights, but no instruction manuals, so when they went on a practice night mission, they got lost and had to have a soldier walking in front of each vehicle carrying a light. They eventually figured out how to get the sights working properly, but I suppose that this procedure is not recommended in real combat situations...



Ron -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/21/2013 1:44:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

After a quick glance over the scenarios, I found "The Pied Piper" to be a very reasonably sized one that poses quite a few interesting operational problems. I'm still through my first play, and my bold plan to do an advanced defense in depth (i.e. covering the minefields to the east) doesn't seem to be a very sound one, since the Soviet forces have enough firepower to pin down my forces (and killing or flanking them before I have a chance to withdraw).

There's a lot of points east of Hameln and it strikes me that giving all those points for free to the Soviets is a bad idea - given the very limited forces at my disposal it's very unlikely that the Germans are going to bounce back... So I'd love to hear ideas about how to approach this scenario [:)]



Interesting, those were my exact same thoughts on my first go at this scenario and likely the same disastrous outcome. The Leopard 1A1s and Marders are really outclassed here technically, and with the ~30 minute order cycle the WG forces will become pinned down and destroyed even with screening orders for little to no gain. No WG recce coupled with a definite sighting disadvantage makes for a one sided fight. I'm not sure how to use these initial WG forces for any real gain. Back to the drawing board....



Ron -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/21/2013 8:05:30 PM)

Well after playing this scenario again a couple different ways, I have come upon 'what works' for the game though not necessarily what I would consider doctrinally sound. Doctrine would have the mine belt covered by fire so initially you are forced to defend forward since the mines cannot be adjusted. Doctrine would have the WG forces screen and fallback, but that does not really work at all here. Issuing any sort of plan or fallback movement with the initial forces takes too long and the Warsaw forces easily get inside your cycle and you are destroyed as you move or even before. Even without issuing any fallback orders and letting the AI control the falling back with the Screen order is unsatisfactory as your forces will yoyo until destroyed also for little gain. In the end the game produces the best results when the WG forces are simply ordered to hold and die in place so the Warsaw forces are delayed and attritted. Either way the WG reinforcements (carrying a shield with the hammer this time) mop up when they can engage. I just don't think that would be how it's done in real life though I can stand to be corrected.



Mad Russian -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (10/21/2013 10:03:44 PM)

While obstacles are intended to be covered by observation and fire that normally is taken to mean artillery as well as direct fire weapons.

The West Germans doctrine is to not give up one square meter of soil to an invader. I think your forward defense is very doctrinally sound for their military.

Those that have served in the West German military may come in and add to this discussion which will be a worthwhile event. [&o]

Good Hunting.

MR



ParaB -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (11/5/2013 11:44:03 AM)

I did serve in the Bundeswehr in 1993/94, our officers and senior NCOs were all old Panzergrenadiers and still had the "cold war" doctrine in their blood. Which was: advance and get into (prepared) positions, fight, then withdraw to the next defensive position. Rinse and repeat until out of ammo or dead. [;)]

I just bought the game yesterday and played the Pied Piper scenario. I got a decisive success with 89%.

I blew the north-west bridge and the bridge at Gross Hilligsfeld right at the start. I placed an inf plt at Gross Hilligsfeld, another one with the Co HQ back at Hameln with orders to advance to Rohrsen and sent one plt on a mad dash towards the bridge east of Am Schecken. The Leo 1 company was ordered to the wooded hill west-north/west of Grosshiligsfeld.

All units got into position including the inf plt at the Am Schecken bridge. That unit soon spotted what looked like a rifle battalion advancing towards the bridge. They blew the bidge then fought a brilliant action against vastly superior forces, heavily supported by my artillery. To the NW the Leo 1s dispatched the OPFOR scouts, then started to take losses from enemy tanks and SPATs. Just in time I got a Leo 2 company and another inf company to deal with a massive advance by enemy forces from Hasperde. I sent half the Leo 2s to the hill south of the river near Gross Hilligsfeld and got the Red Army in a nice 'fire sack' stretching in a half circle from the wooded heights NW of Gross Hilligsfeld to Rohrsen and the hill South of G.Hilligsfeld.






Mad Russian -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (11/5/2013 11:47:09 AM)

Pied Piper is being redone. The way the VP's were set the Soviets don't react like they were intended. The reworked version won't be so easy to beat. [:D]

Good Hunting.

MR



ParaB -> RE: Scenario Analysis - The Pied Piper (11/5/2013 11:54:28 AM)

Good to hear.

[:D]



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