"Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (Full Version)

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$trummer -> "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/12/2013 11:03:06 PM)

Moroccan Air Force F-16s and Mirages are splashing my AAW-equipped F/A-18s in this scenario. I'm curious; is the Viper really as superior as this to the (admittedly dual-mission) Hornet? My second question is this: despite being admonished against first use of weapons in this scenario, wouldn't I be wise to hit those Moroccan airfields preemptively, given how destructive their F-16s are once they get in the air?



Russian Heel -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/12/2013 11:09:52 PM)

For your 2nd question, political will always trumps military wisdom.



SSN754planker -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/13/2013 1:09:26 AM)

One thing i hope that gets modeled soon is being able to set "pilot effectiveness/training level." This would bring yet another level of realism to scenarios.



$trummer -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/13/2013 2:01:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SSN754planker

One thing i hope that gets modeled soon is being able to set "pilot effectiveness/training level." This would bring yet another level of realism to scenarios.

Yes. For once I'm not going to blame user error on my part. Every evenly-weighted confrontation between a Maroccan F-16 and a Spanish F/A-18 was weighted heavily in favor of the Moroccan aces. Perhaps there is a big gap in a2A capability between the two platforms but in real life I'd be surprised if the Spanish air force did not have an edge.



wodin -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/13/2013 2:03:42 AM)

That is something I like to see addressed. In Tim Stones review he says the game is obsessive over hardware but lacks the "software" element. Be able to have Ace's modeled and different training levels would be cool and add a massive amount of immersion. Also the crew of ships to be modeled including casualties which then affects overall performance. If that gets implemented and when the ground gets abit more love I will purchase.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SSN754planker

One thing i hope that gets modeled soon is being able to set "pilot effectiveness/training level." This would bring yet another level of realism to scenarios.



$trummer -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/13/2013 2:53:48 AM)

I've been indifferent to the "morale " issue so far, but if a third-world military can trump a first-world military in quite this way, even allowing for user error, which I genuinely not not believe to be a factor here, that is inherently unrealistic.



Temple -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/13/2013 4:30:55 AM)

Besides pilot training, there can also be maintenance and serving competence levels. Re-arming a fighter is going to take a lot longer if your mechanics were force recruited straight off a farm and given very little training. Also the reliability of weapon systems would be effected (think Iranian F-14s).



thewood1 -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/13/2013 4:45:02 AM)

I just ran a test scenario 4 times...took the Canary Cage and modified it to have 4 x F/A-18A with AIM-120B and 4 x F-16 with Sparrows.

In the four runs throughs below is what I saw...in each run through.

Spain lost 2 F/A-18's to Sparrows. Fired 4 AIM-120Bs.

Morocco lost 2 F-16s and expended 8 Sparrows.

I had one run through where Spain lost only 1 F/A-18.

I don't consider that uneven at all. You have 4 fighters that are roughly equivalent. Morocco had to expend twice as much ordinance to achieve somewhat equal results.

I just pointed each group at each other and watched in God Mode. I canned the scenario after all long-range AAW weapons were expended. I'll test some more on short-range stuff.



Dimitris -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/13/2013 7:15:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: $trummer
I've been indifferent to the "morale " issue so far, but if a third-world military can trump a first-world military in quite this way, even allowing for user error, which I genuinely not not believe to be a factor here, that is inherently unrealistic.


*cough*Cope India 2005*cough*



$trummer -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/13/2013 7:17:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: $trummer
I've been indifferent to the "morale " issue so far, but if a third-world military can trump a first-world military in quite this way, even allowing for user error, which I genuinely not not believe to be a factor here, that is inherently unrealistic.


*cough*Cope India 2005*cough*

India does NOT have a third-world military. It is a highly-trained nuclear-armed military that has been on a semi-war footing for twenty years. Also, re. Cope India, to Wikipedia cites the following: "The American pilots in 2004 allegedly flew under restrictions to give the Indians flying their Russian aircraft a better chance."



Pergite! -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/13/2013 7:32:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: $trummer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: $trummer
I've been indifferent to the "morale " issue so far, but if a third-world military can trump a first-world military in quite this way, even allowing for user error, which I genuinely not not believe to be a factor here, that is inherently unrealistic.


*cough*Cope India 2005*cough*

India does NOT have a third-world military. It is a highly-trained nuclear-armed military that has been on a semi-war footing for twenty years. Also, re. Cope India, to Wikipedia cites the following: "The American pilots in 2004 allegedly flew under restrictions to give the Indians flying their Russian aircraft a better chance."


F16 without data links or AMRAAMs against SU30s with full support was hardly a fair fight, regardless of pilot training.



Pergite! -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (10/13/2013 7:38:17 PM)

Anyway, a "morale" factor would be useless if hardcoded into the db. It would just be a subject debate without adding much value. It's the optimal use of sensors and weapons and C3 that wins the day. For some scenarios there would however be a point in the ability to alter roe and doctrine to reproduce real historical outcomes.



jonpspri -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (6/8/2014 12:41:49 PM)

I've been playing this scenario for days now, because it's so addictively frustrating. My current feeling is the AI doctrine on BVR missiles needs a little tweaking, especially against a highly maneuverable opponent like the F16C Block 42. AMRAAMs are arriving on target with no maneuverability left, leading to ridiculously low hit rates.

I'm not complaining, mind you; in fact I'm being forced to think very hard about my CAP policies and engagement approaches to dealing with these guys. I may have to take manual control of intercepts to get the splash ratios I want. Any other thoughts on how to best use the AMRAAM against a maneuverable opponent?



Coldmeter -> RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s (6/8/2014 1:58:38 PM)


I've played scenario twice last week, first time out I lost a few F-18's, second time after I tweaked my AAW patrols I quickly wiped all the Moroccan aircraft out of the skies over the mainland. Thought it was an excellent scenario. I was going to hit the airfields but after the A2A was finished over the mainland their was no need.

mark



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