RE: Ostfront 2 (Full Version)

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Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/19/2013 10:01:21 PM)

I am starting to add the basic production system now. It makes for a busy map so I prefer to turn the location bases off.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/4DF8247D149C4F9C84EB651EFFB3EDA6.jpg[/image]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/20/2013 8:54:11 PM)

I have come up with a core scheme for Town and City production.

Towns (the grey targets) automatically produce a resource called Land
Cities (the red targets) can then produce 4 basic items which only require Land as an input.

The basic items are SupplyRural, Infantry2ndLine, Horse & TruckCivilian. All of which represent what you might call "scavenging".

Costs for these basic items are much higher than for their "industrial" equivalents which are made in factories. So if you have industry in good shape you may not choose to make them much or at all. However industry will be very dependent on having enough Metals available. Metals is just like Raw in the stock game and is produced in Mines.

Cities will also be able to produce a sub-set of all the other ItemTypes in the game. Everywhere will be able to make Infantry but the heavy equipment (guns, tanks, planes) will be located on a vaguely historical basis.



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/22/2013 11:47:26 AM)

Further to the above ...

I have expanded Horse into two separate SFTypes/ItemTypes - Wagon and Gun Team.

Wagon is exactly equivalent to the generic Horse, and is considered to contain 2 actual horses.

Gun Team has twice the capacity and can therefore haul heavy artillery. It is considered to contain 6 actual horses and therefore the production cost is 3 times that of Wagon.



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/22/2013 6:39:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

I have come up with a core scheme for Town and City production.

Towns (the grey targets) automatically produce a resource called Land
Cities (the red targets) can then produce 4 basic items which only require Land as an input.

The basic items are SupplyRural, Infantry2ndLine, Horse & TruckCivilian. All of which represent what you might call "scavenging".

Costs for these basic items are much higher than for their "industrial" equivalents which are made in factories. So if you have industry in good shape you may not choose to make them much or at all. However industry will be very dependent on having enough Metals available. Metals is just like Raw in the stock game and is produced in Mines.

Cities will also be able to produce a sub-set of all the other ItemTypes in the game. Everywhere will be able to make Infantry but the heavy equipment (guns, tanks, planes) will be located on a vaguely historical basis.


Will energy supply be considered ?





Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/22/2013 8:51:02 PM)

Not for production. As per the stock game coal is assumed to be plentiful for both sides, which I believe was the case in reality. Fuel (oil) is used for moving vehicles and planes but not trains, again as in stock.

Germany will have several off-map production locations, which will be subject to abstracted damage by strategic bombing. This will include the synthetic fuel plants.

The bombing of Ploesti (which is on-map) by the USAAF will also be represented somehow.



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/24/2013 11:34:34 PM)

The basic German production system is now on the map. You can see some of the extensive off-map stuff in the screenshot below. Most of this does not need to be managed by the player, and will slowly disappear as the western Allies bomb it ;-)

I have decided to include coal in the game, since a lot of the mines on the source map are in fact coal mines and not metals mines. Therefore Metals has been re-named to Resources, and Trains will use this as fuel.

There will be representations of all the imported steel-making ingredients which the Germans never had enough of i.e iron ore, chromite, nickel and tungsten. They are all lumped into Resources but I will try to weight them appropriately.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/EEBB9A8A1012487A8042EBE6A1DD053E.jpg[/image]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/26/2013 12:38:42 AM)

The basic Soviet production is now done. Much more Land, and a slight advantage in Resources and Fuel.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/D5671C8C38544D8CAC99D1269F493B34.jpg[/image]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/27/2013 11:14:54 PM)

Automated Rail Conversion

This is another critical path item. Playing WitE it gets utterly tedious having to manually convert rail hexes every turn. Having it automated also means you don't have to clutter up the map with lots of non-combat engineering units.

I thought this might be impossible. It certainly was tricky. However to my surprise I have come up with some code which works pretty well. When entering enemy territory each side will get its own rail network extended by a minimum of 2 hexes and maximum of 4 hexes per map row, without player intervention. The code is presented below, if you're really keen.

The other thing I want to treat in a similar manner is Partisan effects. However that will need a full OOB on the map to test properly, so I am leaving it for now.

quote:

0) ' Germany
1) CHECK: CheckTurn == 0
2) ' Change all SO Rail in GE territory
3) ' Scan map 4 times (east to west) with decreasing chance of conversion each time
4) LOOPER: TempVar99 FROM 1 TO 4
5) LOOPER: TempVar13 FROM 4 TO 187
6) LOOPER: TempVar1 FROM 0 TO 140
7) SETVAR: TempVar0 = 191
8) SETVAR: TempVar0 - TempVar13
9) CHECK: CheckHexOwner(TempVar0, TempVar1) == 0
10) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar0, TempVar1, -1) == 1
11) ' Check adjacent hexes for home rail type
12) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 0
13) SETVAR: TempVar2 = TempVar0
14) SETVAR: TempVar2 + 1
15) SETVAR: TempVar3 = TempVar0
16) SETVAR: TempVar3 - 1
17) SETVAR: TempVar4 = TempVar1
18) SETVAR: TempVar4 + 1
19) SETVAR: TempVar5 = TempVar1
20) SETVAR: TempVar5 - 1
21) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar3, TempVar1, -1) == 0
22) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
23) END CHECK
24) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar3, TempVar4, -1) == 0
25) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
26) END CHECK
27) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar0, TempVar4, -1) == 0
28) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
29) END CHECK
30) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar2, TempVar4, -1) == 0
31) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
32) END CHECK
33) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar2, TempVar1, -1) == 0
34) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
35) END CHECK
36) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar0, TempVar5, -1) == 0
37) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
38) END CHECK
39) CHECK: TempVar9 == 1
40) CHECK: TempVar99 == 1
41) SETVAR: TempVar33 = 100
42) END CHECK
43) CHECK: TempVar99 == 2
44) SETVAR: TempVar33 = 100
45) END CHECK
46) CHECK: TempVar99 == 3
47) SETVAR: TempVar33 = 80
48) END CHECK
49) CHECK: TempVar99 == 4
50) SETVAR: TempVar33 = 50
51) END CHECK
52) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent =< TempVar33
53) EXECUTE: ExecChangeRoad(TempVar0, TempVar1, 1, 0)
54) END CHECK
55) END CHECK
56) END CHECK
57) END CHECK
58) ' Change movement rulevars
59) EXECUTE: ExecSetRuleVar(2, 15, 0)
60) EXECUTE: ExecSetRuleVar(32, 0, 0)
61) EXECUTE: ExecSetRuleVar(99, 17, 0)
62) END LOOPER
63) END LOOPER
64) END LOOPER
65) END CHECK
66) ' Soviet Union
67) CHECK: CheckTurn == 1
68) ' Change all GE Rail in SO territory
69) ' Scan map 4 times (west to east) with decreasing chance of conversion each time
70) LOOPER: TempVar99 FROM 1 TO 4
71) LOOPER: TempVar0 FROM 4 TO 187
72) LOOPER: TempVar1 FROM 0 TO 140
73) CHECK: CheckHexOwner(TempVar0, TempVar1) == 1
74) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar0, TempVar1, -1) == 0
75) ' Check adjacent hexes for home rail type
76) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 0
77) SETVAR: TempVar2 = TempVar0
78) SETVAR: TempVar2 + 1
79) SETVAR: TempVar3 = TempVar0
80) SETVAR: TempVar3 - 1
81) SETVAR: TempVar4 = TempVar1
82) SETVAR: TempVar4 + 1
83) SETVAR: TempVar5 = TempVar1
84) SETVAR: TempVar5 - 1
85) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar3, TempVar1, -1) == 1
86) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
87) END CHECK
88) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar3, TempVar4, -1) == 1
89) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
90) END CHECK
91) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar0, TempVar4, -1) == 1
92) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
93) END CHECK
94) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar2, TempVar4, -1) == 1
95) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
96) END CHECK
97) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar2, TempVar1, -1) == 1
98) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
99) END CHECK
100) CHECK: CheckRoadType(TempVar0, TempVar5, -1) == 1
101) SETVAR: TempVar9 = 1
102) END CHECK
103) CHECK: TempVar9 == 1
104) CHECK: TempVar99 == 1
105) SETVAR: TempVar33 = 100
106) END CHECK
107) CHECK: TempVar99 == 2
108) SETVAR: TempVar33 = 100
109) END CHECK
110) CHECK: TempVar99 == 3
111) SETVAR: TempVar33 = 80
112) END CHECK
113) CHECK: TempVar99 == 4
114) SETVAR: TempVar33 = 50
115) END CHECK
116) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent =< TempVar33
117) EXECUTE: ExecChangeRoad(TempVar0, TempVar1, 0, 1)
118) END CHECK
119) END CHECK
120) END CHECK
121) END CHECK
122) ' Change movement rulevars
123) EXECUTE: ExecSetRuleVar(2, 16, 0)
124) EXECUTE: ExecSetRuleVar(32, 1, 0)
125) EXECUTE: ExecSetRuleVar(99, 18, 0)
126) END LOOPER
127) END LOOPER
128) END LOOPER
129) END CHECK



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/27/2013 11:32:42 PM)

Beans & Bullets

I am considering adding another Resource called "Ammo". This will be made only in industrial cities, and will be required by artillery and other large guns for combat. It will work like Fuel for armour and air, but will not be required for movement.

Infantry will not need Ammo to fight.

The idea is to prevent arty being abused every turn, players will have to stockpile ammunition before doing massed bombardments.

Thoughts?



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/29/2013 10:18:27 PM)

Busy working on the production system ...

Gratuitous piccie below [8D]

[image]local://upfiles/11369/C56DECB2A764466F9B28A0CFACBAA7CF.jpg[/image]



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/30/2013 4:35:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Beans & Bullets

I am considering adding another Resource called "Ammo". This will be made only in industrial cities, and will be required by artillery and other large guns for combat. It will work like Fuel for armour and air, but will not be required for movement.

Infantry will not need Ammo to fight.

The idea is to prevent arty being abused every turn, players will have to stockpile ammunition before doing massed bombardments.

Thoughts?


A new twist, but fun ?




Jeffrey H. -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/30/2013 4:36:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Busy working on the production system ...

Gratuitous piccie below [8D]

[image]local://upfiles/11369/C56DECB2A764466F9B28A0CFACBAA7CF.jpg[/image]


Love the unit graphics !




Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/30/2013 3:23:27 PM)

I intend to use all genuine German symbols for the counters.

As for Ammo, I think I will hold off from this at the moment. There are other ways to reduce arty abuse, and from my initial testing Supply will not be abundant for either side. At least not if they want to actually produce any combat units.



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/30/2013 9:49:45 PM)

Here's another sample unit.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/64C0B28D29F643819A31AE38BA6B47DC.jpg[/image]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (11/30/2013 10:17:06 PM)

The list of German research items is expanding.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/A06DFF6C657342DD83DB0FA29326D89A.jpg[/image]



Jonathan Pollard -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/1/2013 7:13:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

I am finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel with putting the towns on. However, alongside this I am developing the movecosts matrix, as below. This is based on 4 day turns.

I'm glad you chose 4 day turns instead of 1 week or more. One of the things that I don't like about IGOUGO games from a realism perspective is that one side can move for a week or more without the other side being able to react (unless the game has an engine such as TOAW which allows for the commitment of tactical reserves by the non-phasing player). So the less number of days per turn the less this is a problem. Maybe after you finish I'll do an ultra-grognard mod of your scenario using 2 day turns. [X(]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/4/2013 6:54:03 PM)

I am nearly finished with doing the basic Soviet production system.

After looking at all the factories on the map I decided to keep the whole factory evacuation thing to a minimum. There are just too many cities involved, so I will abstract most of it.

What the Soviet player will have to deal with is four tank factory units like the one below, at Leningrad, Moscow, Kharkov and Stalingrad. These otherwise useless, immobile and defenseless counters will need to be moved to various Urals cities using Strategic Transfer. Each move will take up a large part of the available train fleet. Once the counter is moved out of its starting position an event will check for its arrival in the designated hex and then create a 100% damaged location/factory at that city of an appropriate size and type.

This only requires basic scripting but I think it works really well.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/A7C7CD1469EA4AFBAFBBEEB2713AF137.jpg[/image]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/4/2013 6:56:15 PM)

Here's a gratuitous picture of the Leningrad air defence units.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/F8E36F0622CF44ACB7AA2DF273A2544D.jpg[/image]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/4/2013 7:01:10 PM)

Turn 1 German production (at least the top of the list).

[image]local://upfiles/11369/63D108256D9F4F6DBF3E3EAB497C9CBB.jpg[/image]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/4/2013 7:08:13 PM)

The Soviet equivalent.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/864319F7A3934F48AA20B77239F6D07C.jpg[/image]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/4/2013 7:14:54 PM)

It should be noted that production of the various items can be altered hugely on a per-turn basis. The lists above are just the current initial default settings.

There will be a constant balancing act between producing Basic items (those beginning with B) which consume few Resources and everything else which is Resource hungry.

I appreciate that many potential players may not relish this part of the game, but to me it's an essential part of the whole thing. If at all possible I will make some Action Cards which help, things like "Prioritize Supply" or "More Trucks" perhaps.



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/4/2013 7:17:57 PM)

Here's a glance at the Soviet Production Overview.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/F24ED3D36A1B4A27BE6AD19FC3403086.jpg[/image]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/4/2013 7:26:54 PM)

Both sides will be able to make use of these dudes, but they will fight better for the Soviet Union.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/7DD2EF1CA97A4408902534ADD0D2B6A0.jpg[/image]



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/5/2013 7:52:30 PM)

In the briefing or someplace else do you plan to put some reference table for the unit symbols ?



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/5/2013 8:52:08 PM)

Yes of course. There will be a doc with all the important information in it.



ironduke1955 -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/6/2013 4:54:42 AM)

Ammo and Artillery, since we have 4 day turns the use of Artillery would be a average effect number. If you have a option for intensive barrage's with higher yields of damage to the target then ammo would be a nice option to use. But artillery was used in different ways the Germans preferred open sight firing a lot more efficient than the Soviet massed barrages that were often targeted at locations that the Germans had just vacated. Unless there are a couple of options for the use of ammo, it is then just a supply issue.



Jonathan Pollard -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/6/2013 7:01:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Both sides will be able to make use of these dudes, but they will fight better for the Soviet Union.

[image]local://upfiles/11369/7DD2EF1CA97A4408902534ADD0D2B6A0.jpg[/image]

Some people might take issue with your decision to have them fight better for the USSR. While it's true that many of the captured Soviets recruited for the Wehrmacht were considered unreliable, I don't think the same could be said about the Cossacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUAnVnweM8E&bpctr=1386317905

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmCSShdw8Ic



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/6/2013 6:06:51 PM)

I would have to make a separate People and have separate Factories for Cossacks to have a different combat modifier. That is additional complexity on what is already a very complex scenario, and for little gain. All the cavalry SFTypes will have very low combat power, so they should really only be used for recon, exploitation and garrison duty, not actual fighting.

More generally, what I am seeking to do is give historical flavour, not produce something perfectly historical. I don't have the knowledge to do that, and I also dislike the pointless historical arguments that all such attempts seem to attract. Not to mention the unsuitability of the ATG engine for creating such a thing.



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/6/2013 6:09:12 PM)

ironduke555,

I have decided not to have Ammo as a separate item. Instead the various arty SFTypes will suffer a range of readiness penalties for moving and firing, and also consume more Supply than in the stock game.



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Ostfront 2 (12/6/2013 7:04:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

I would have to make a separate People and have separate Factories for Cossacks to have a different combat modifier. That is additional complexity on what is already a very complex scenario, and for little gain. All the cavalry SFTypes will have very low combat power, so they should really only be used for recon, exploitation and garrison duty, not actual fighting.

More generally, what I am seeking to do is give historical flavour, not produce something perfectly historical. I don't have the knowledge to do that, and I also dislike the pointless historical arguments that all such attempts seem to attract. Not to mention the unsuitability of the ATG engine for creating such a thing.


I think this is a great way to go about it, stay away from the history book thumping when it detracts from gameplay. It's a game, which is in essence an abstraction for enjoyment. When it comes to historical accuracy vs. gameplay and simplicity, go for the latter. When you can include complexity that enhances the overall gameplay experience, then it should be considered.

Just my opinion. (I can't believe I jusy typed out "gameplay experience").






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