#1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (Full Version)

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Tanaka -> #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/15/2013 7:46:44 AM)

They go flying off willy nilly to the far reaches of the galaxy! What good does this do at all? They should start as close to the home planet and continue exploring from there. Why? Because freighters and constructors and colony ships can actually reach these explored systems. The AI can then actually colonize and mine reachable systems. Its what we players do and one reason we get so much farther ahead. Please fix this I never automate my explorers because of this.



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/15/2013 8:32:59 AM)

I usually build more than the requested number of explorers. As well I leave a couple on Manual control always as they seem to skip systems.
As well the game seems to get stuck frequently and generates new finds in the same sector. Four different Data cores directed me to sector C5, I ran explorers through the indicated systems and found the indicated ships. Then a 5th core sent me back to C5, the same system, and same world I just found a ship at not minutes before, now had a second one.



Cheet4h -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/16/2013 7:38:26 AM)

Do your explorers fly from your homeworld directly to far off systems? If yes, that's a bug.

Since I don't have such a bug, playing with the latest version, I guess your explorers behave the same as mine: Flying to a system, exploring it and then checking for the closest unexplored system to explore next.

You can fix this in two ways:
1) Manually control your explorers and tell them to "Explore All Systems In Sector". This way they still fly to the closest unexplored systems and use the inferior* manual exploring AI, but they stick to the designated sector and will not leave it.

2) Send retrofit orders to your explorers more often and/or reduce their fuel holds. This way they will return to your empire more often and search for the closest unexplored planets next to your empire, although it will reduce their effective exploring time.


*) Why do I say inferior? Automated explorers don't search for unexplored systems, but for unexplored objects, while the manual explore commands checks for unexplored objects in systems. If there's a system which has a planet with unknown resources, an automated explorer will directly go for the planet, while the explorer manually ordered to explore a sector or system always warps to the sun first and from there warps to the next unexplored object in the system.



Tampa_Gamer -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/16/2013 5:34:02 PM)

On a related (bug) note, I have noticed with several games in Shadows that after telling an explorer to explore a system it will chime that it is done exploring - but when I look at the system, not all of the planets are explored. It happens frequently enough that I now feel the need to check each system to ensure they are truly explored before re-assigning it to a new system. Anyone else encounter this bug?



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/16/2013 5:37:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tampa_Gamer

On a related (bug) note, I have noticed with several games in Shadows that after telling an explorer to explore a system it will chime that it is done exploring - but when I look at the system, not all of the planets are explored. It happens frequently enough that I now feel the need to check each system to ensure they are truly explored before re-assigning it to a new system. Anyone else encounter this bug?

I have seen this as well, both with automated and manual Explorers. Sometimes they move to every single asteroid, sometimes just a fraction of the major objects, and WHAM they are off to the next system.



Shark7 -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/16/2013 5:54:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tampa_Gamer

On a related (bug) note, I have noticed with several games in Shadows that after telling an explorer to explore a system it will chime that it is done exploring - but when I look at the system, not all of the planets are explored. It happens frequently enough that I now feel the need to check each system to ensure they are truly explored before re-assigning it to a new system. Anyone else encounter this bug?

I have seen this as well, both with automated and manual Explorers. Sometimes they move to every single asteroid, sometimes just a fraction of the major objects, and WHAM they are off to the next system.


Sometimes they get chased off by monsters or pirates, and that is when they tend to not finish the scans. This becomes less of a problem later in the game when you have higher tech resource scanners that don't have to move right up on every single object.



Kayoz -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 5:21:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tampa_Gamer

On a related (bug) note, I have noticed with several games in Shadows that after telling an explorer to explore a system it will chime that it is done exploring - but when I look at the system, not all of the planets are explored. It happens frequently enough that I now feel the need to check each system to ensure they are truly explored before re-assigning it to a new system. Anyone else encounter this bug?

Me.

1. Explorers do not always investigate ruins even when configuration dictates that they do.
2. Some debris fields are never tagged. It may be a combination of -
a. the debris field cannot be tagged - it has no label, or...
b. the explorer legs it after exploring the object the field is locked to, and never returns
3. explorer prioritization is for whatever is nearest to it, not relative to your empire. Once it wanders off, it continues to explore the far reaches, whilst ignoring systems close to one's controlled planets.

This is nothing new. These behaviour problems have irked me (and others) for quite a while now.



Lucian -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 7:49:58 AM)

I don't have any serious issues with the exact way that explorers explore. But it does annoy me greatly to have 60+ explorers sitting around doing absolutely nothing once the galaxy has been fully explored. That can't possibly be WAD can it?



Canute0 -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 8:13:34 AM)

Yep, you can retrofit them with Ultra-Long range scanners and park them along the galaxy as mobile Pirate detectors.



sbach2o -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 9:00:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

I don't have any serious issues with the exact way that explorers explore. But it does annoy me greatly to have 60+ explorers sitting around doing absolutely nothing once the galaxy has been fully explored. That can't possibly be WAD can it?


WAD means working as designed and it is doing exactly that. There is no mission of 'keeping tabs on explored systems outside the range of long range scanners' (looking for pirates and such). I'd love them doing this automatically. When the galaxy is explored, I am busy enough with other things and shepherding explorers becomes onerous.

All that automated explorers in an explored galaxy are 'useful' for is peeking into enemy systems in times of war. Not that it is really useful, but more than nothing, anyway. The rest must be done manually.




Lucian -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 9:12:49 AM)

Canute: I like your idea of fitting previously useless explorers with long range sensors and positioning them around the galaxy as sensor platforms. That's not a bad work around and I'm definitely going to try it.

It would be nice if the devs could figure a way of making explorers continue to explore or re-explore, once the galaxy is fully mapped rather than just throw in the towel and do absolutely nothing. It may be currently WAD, but to be brutally honest it's a pretty crap design.



sbach2o -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 9:52:02 AM)

I can feel with you Lucian, and I can also feel with the developer. What we are asking for is actually pretty hard to implement in an elegant, performance friendly way. More importantly, it has likely been always lower in priority than other urgent tasks regarding the game. But an entire class of ships becoming mostly obsolete at a certain stage of the game doesn't look good.

The "Mobile Long Range Scanner" approach that Canute suggests is what I have been always doing. Not with 60 explorers, though. I significantly reduce the size of the fleet at that stage.



Canute0 -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 10:33:36 AM)

Believe me, they allready improved the explorer.
In the past the explored swarmed together to explore, it happen that you got 2-5 explorer at one system.
But it isn't satiesfied at moment. I watched auto. explorer who cross 2 sectors to explore a system, but a half sector away was still an unexplored system and no explorer close by who got that maybe as target.
Thats why i send my explorer out with just Explore sector commands and only later when i allready explored the most of the map i put them on auto.




Tampa_Gamer -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 3:40:26 PM)

The issue of "not fully exploring a system" does effect both manual "explore system" and automated explorers.

I am sure I am over-simplifying the potential solution, but when the player hovers over an object to see if it still says unknown/unexplored, that is a label tag that exists somewhere in the game's data tied to that particular system/object. Before sending the player a message that the explorer is in fact done exploring that system/without orders, it should do a simple game data check to ensure that no object within that system has that particular label tag. If it finds that tag, it should do as the player would do in that situation and issue another "explore system" command on that system to finish up.



Shark7 -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 5:21:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

I don't have any serious issues with the exact way that explorers explore. But it does annoy me greatly to have 60+ explorers sitting around doing absolutely nothing once the galaxy has been fully explored. That can't possibly be WAD can it?


At that point they will go into work as scouts when you are at war. Personally I only build 24 scouts, as that is plenty to get the exploration done and I don't feel the urgent need to scrap them later on. I also put a Long Range Scanner on them, so they work more like an AWACS later in game.



Tampa_Gamer -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 5:30:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I also put a Long Range Scanner on them, so they work more like an AWACS later in game.


Same here. My entire fleet of 12-15x Surveyors get an upgrade to either a JSTAR/AWAC designation. Captured enemy surveyors don't get the LR scanner upgrade, but do get an "Expendable XX" designation and sent to an enemy system that we want "eyes on" information at.



Erik Rutins -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 6:20:57 PM)

Explorers actually got a lot of attention for Shadows. Are the issues reported still happening for you all in the latest Shadows version?

Regards,

- Erik



ASHBERY76 -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 6:52:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Explorers actually got a lot of attention for Shadows. Are the issues reported still happening for you all in the latest Shadows version?

Regards,

- Erik



They do not explore all the ruins when automated!!! They keep missing them here and there.




Lucian -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 6:54:05 PM)

After they have explored the galaxy, explorers on auto, just stop and do nothing en-masse so I generally just end up with 60 or more sitting at my homeworld doing absolutely nothing. Is that intended behavior as many people seem to think? If so, its pretty sub-optimal.

It would be better if they continued to explore, particularly since several people have reported that it's possible to miss some ruins and therefore fail to ever trigger the Shakturi. If the explorers kept re-exploring, then they would eventually find those ruins. Not to mention that having them idle is a complete waste of an entire ship class.

Edit: We suspect that some ruins are not explored because of map trading and events that reveal system maps. Since those systems are then flagged as "explored", explorers never go there and thus never explore the ruins contained in those systems. If explorers were set to re-explore again and again once they have done the entire galaxy, they would eventually come back and find anything that was missed.



Darkspire -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/17/2013 10:21:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

After they have explored the galaxy, explorers on auto, just stop and do nothing en-masse so I generally just end up with 60 or more sitting at my homeworld doing absolutely nothing. Is that intended behavior as many people seem to think? If so, its pretty sub-optimal.

It would be better if they continued to explore, particularly since several people have reported that it's possible to miss some ruins and therefore fail to ever trigger the Shakturi. If the explorers kept re-exploring, then they would eventually find those ruins. Not to mention that having them idle is a complete waste of an entire ship class.

Edit: We suspect that some ruins are not explored because of map trading and events that reveal system maps. Since those systems are then flagged as "explored", explorers never go there and thus never explore the ruins contained in those systems. If explorers were set to re-explore again and again once they have done the entire galaxy, they would eventually come back and find anything that was missed.


+1

Darkspire



Icemania -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/18/2013 12:16:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

After they have explored the galaxy, explorers on auto, just stop and do nothing en-masse so I generally just end up with 60 or more sitting at my homeworld doing absolutely nothing. Is that intended behavior as many people seem to think? If so, its pretty sub-optimal.

It would be better if they continued to explore, particularly since several people have reported that it's possible to miss some ruins and therefore fail to ever trigger the Shakturi. If the explorers kept re-exploring, then they would eventually find those ruins. Not to mention that having them idle is a complete waste of an entire ship class.

Edit: We suspect that some ruins are not explored because of map trading and events that reveal system maps. Since those systems are then flagged as "explored", explorers never go there and thus never explore the ruins contained in those systems. If explorers were set to re-explore again and again once they have done the entire galaxy, they would eventually come back and find anything that was missed.


+1

Darkspire

+2!



Icemania -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/18/2013 12:17:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Explorers actually got a lot of attention for Shadows. Are the issues reported still happening for you all in the latest Shadows version?

Regards,

- Erik


This is great to hear. What was changed? Maybe the changes were accidentally missed from the release?



Icemania -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/18/2013 12:41:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
They go flying off willy nilly to the far reaches of the galaxy! What good does this do at all? They should start as close to the home planet and continue exploring from there. Why? Because freighters and constructors and colony ships can actually reach these explored systems. The AI can then actually colonize and mine reachable systems. Its what we players do and one reason we get so much farther ahead. Please fix this I never automate my explorers because of this.

I also never automate explorers.

The fastest way to explore the galaxy and quickly find goodies is the "move to" command.

Early game for nearby systems I'll explore whole systems (approximately 1-1.5 sectors in a circle around my homeworld) until strategic supplies are completely in hand (the search for Chromium sometimes needs a little more effort) and a good chunk of luxuries.

However, after that, once an unexplored system is reached using "move to", I would only explore:
(a) Planets with Ruins
(b) Debris Fields (repairable ships, world destroyers)
(c) Planets that could have Super Luxuries (i.e. always certain types)

If nothing interesting then "move to" the next system.

Some may explore Colonisable Planets but I tend to leave them until a second wave (unless they are nearby).

This massively decreases the time required to find targets of strategic interest, which provide significant benefits to a growing empire ... as compared to exploring every useless ball of rock and gas giant in existence etc. A large fleet is far faster in achieving this than a small fleet.

The problem with this is that it's really intensive on the micro to the point where I have not played the game in a while now as it dominates the mid-game ... and I have no interest in playing the game with the current Explorer Automation.

One option for the developer would be adding an "Explore Specials" type command which would focus on (a), (b) and (c) above only. This would decrease the micro on manual a lot.

Ideally though an improved AI adopting some of these principles would be beneficial i.e. once more than a certain distance from your territory, Explorer Automation would focus on Specials ... and explore the rest later.

With the approach above I almost always find the most interesting goodies first even on Extreme Difficulty. An improved Explorer AI would lead to a feeling of competition for the galaxies spoils. However, to be effective, all AI's should also build more explorers.



Kayoz -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/18/2013 4:47:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Edit: We suspect that some ruins are not explored because of map trading and events that reveal system maps. Since those systems are then flagged as "explored", explorers never go there and thus never explore the ruins contained in those systems. If explorers were set to re-explore again and again once they have done the entire galaxy, they would eventually come back and find anything that was missed.

As it stands, I suspect every planet has a single boolean value for your race's "explored" status. If it's set, you can see it's resources. The status of ruins is set separately. As such, if you get sector maps as a result of map trading/theft/discovery, all the planets with ruins are marked as "explored" and your explorers never go to them to check out the ruins. So, you're left with a situation of idle explorers late in the game, when there are still ruins to check out. Exploration needs to check TWO flags - both "explored" and "investigated". Not ONE as it stands.

Additionally, the "explored" flag is still not set correctly when an explorer visits a planet. Occasionally, planets resources are revealed but the ruins are ignored. This could be a logic issue - such as the "explore" function called when it's a certain distance from the planet but "investigate ruins" done from a closer range - which the explorer may not achieve in that one pass (eg: chased off by a monster or hostile ship). Or possibly the explorer needs to be close to the planet for a period of time - again missed occasionally because of being chased off, or perhaps faulty logic (decision to move off to next target made before investigation time has elapsed).

Regardless of how it's happening, it's never been fixed.



Mad Igor -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/21/2013 11:48:48 PM)

if no1 noticed,ruins also have "explored" flag,but they are ignored,duh.



Kayoz -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/22/2013 12:25:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Igor

if no1 noticed,ruins also have "explored" flag,but they are ignored,duh.

For the purpose of explorer targeting, there is only one flag that matters.



Mad Igor -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/22/2013 11:56:35 AM)

that's lame



Darkspire -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/22/2013 2:05:10 PM)

A possible idea.

When the map is generated each system has everything needing exploring within it given a point, be it ruins, planets, 'roids etc that would then give an overall score for that system, a default value as it were. Each time an explorer on auto is choosing a new destination it reads that value if it is less than the default value or equal to but greater than zero than go explore the system. Every time an explorer uncovers something in that system reduce the point value till it reaches zero, once zero is reached the system would be fully explored and then could be ignored when scanning for the next destination. If a creature is there then add a counter so that when scanning for a destination it would check the 'explore score' and the creature counter, if it does retreat from the system after finding a creature then the 'explore score' would cause another explorer to continue there if the creature counter is showing clear, if the creature(s) is wiped out then the creature counter would be cleared.

Darkspire



Lucian -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (10/22/2013 9:57:16 PM)

Sounds like what you are suggesting would work and work very well. Unfortunately it also sounds like a lot of code to re-write at this late stage of development.

I strongly suspect that any fix for this quite serious problem would have to come in the form of a relatively simple alteration to the existing explorer behavior code, not as an - admittedly far superior - rewrite of their logic. Maybe Distant World 2 could use this idea which is clearly much better than the way their current behavior is coded.

Of course all this assumes that the devs are actually reading this thread...... The only hint of that is a single post, which is a week old...... :)



elliotg -> RE: #1 Request to improve the AI: Fix Automated Explorers (12/4/2013 10:28:59 PM)

Thanks for the feedback. In the next update exploration ships will check for uninvestigated ruins or galaxy locations once they have explored the entire galaxy.

Elliot



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