How to control number of missiles fired ? (Full Version)

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GBS -> How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 11:21:03 AM)

The AI will fire 6 Harpoons at a enemy ship when 2 would suffice. Why the overkill? The ship is destroyed and the remaining missiles fly aimlessly until their fuel runs out. Other than attacking manually and allocating the number, is there a way to control this?



Dimitris -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 11:25:25 AM)

Not at the moment, only by manual control you can specify precisely the weaponry used. Sorry!



ComDev -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 12:27:47 PM)

Curious as to whether you have some suggestions how this could be done. Thanks! [8D]



.Sirius -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 12:36:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GBS

The AI will fire 6 Harpoons at a enemy ship when 2 would suffice. Why the overkill? The ship is destroyed and the remaining missiles fly aimlessly until their fuel runs out. Other than attacking manually and allocating the number, is there a way to control this?


Hi GBS, yes and no, depends on what you are firing at and its layered AAW defence systems, example a Type 23 Frigate (8 Harpoons) v Sovremenyi DDG doctrine dictates for a mission kill 2 salvo's of 4 Harpoons waypointed in would give you a mission kill, Missile Salvo size against various targets is part of NATO Doctrine and you would be surprised what missile type and salvo size you need to get a mission kill so in theory Commands weapon allocation is correct in some ways, I would shudder to tell you what it is against a Kirov !



ExMachina -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 12:52:48 PM)

quote:

Curious as to whether you have some suggestions how this could be done. Thanks!


What about an (optional) popup up weapon allocation dialog? For units with this option enabled, every time the AI wants to shoot missiles/torps the player gets veto power.

This would be a compromise somewhere in between total AI control and manual allocation.

EDIT: and maybe, if the player tells the AI not to allocate any missiles at the target, the AI would then "learn" that THAT unit should never auto allocate any more of THOSE weapons against THAT target...



sneekyzeke -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 1:49:11 PM)

TAO's used to either use "Shoot Shoot Look" or "Shoot Look Shoot", depending on doctrine and situation (for future reference). [;)]



CoffeeMug -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 2:05:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExMachina

quote:

Curious as to whether you have some suggestions how this could be done. Thanks!


What about an (optional) popup up weapon allocation dialog? For units with this option enabled, every time the AI wants to shoot missiles/torps the player gets veto power.

This would be a compromise somewhere in between total AI control and manual allocation.


Ohh, that's a nice one!

Would prevent, what I experienced today: my British ships in Madivinas 1982 fired all Excocets, which have been in range, just in the second, when the target was not a solid hit, but in this chevron-style state. Needless to say, that the target in the chevron was miles from the last "correct" fix. That was bad. The good thing was, that the Exocets missed the BLUE ship right behind the "target". Gave me a tense moment. :D

Cheers,
Coffee




republicofpepsi -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 2:07:12 PM)

What about a ROE setting "Maximum missiles in flight per target" or something to that effect? Might need a timer before the 2nd volley is launched, at least until we have time on target for missiles otherwise as soon as the first hits a new one will launch and the target may be sunk after the last missiles of the first volley has hit, so you've wasted a second volley.



Juramentado -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 2:41:12 PM)

This speaks directly to the tyranny of the modern naval battle. In order to get thru layered defenses, you must saturate. Saturating in a ship-to-ship scenario means salvoing. That being said - for the player side, it could be useful to have a manual intervention dialog option if one prefers to manage at an individual unit level.



hellfish6 -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 8:15:55 PM)

Thinking specifically about SAMs, maybe add an option to side doctrine? Engage incoming with with 1/2/x missiles?



ComDev -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 8:19:34 PM)

Doctrine etc is planned in the future, but is pretty complex and may take a while to do. I've already added 'typical salvo size' in the database for SAMs and AAMs, so the info is there. Now we 'only' have to start working on the horribly complex code, lol! [8D]



RoryAndersonCDT -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 8:32:27 PM)

The funny thing is is that all everyone wants is historically accurate naval warfare doctrine from 1950 to 2020+ for every nation on earth. Shouldn't take too long. [:D][:D][:D]



smudge56 -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/16/2013 9:47:21 PM)

Nope[:D]


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baloogan

The funny thing is is that all everyone wants is historically accurate naval warfare doctrine from 1950 to 2020+ for every nation on earth. Shouldn't take too long. [:D][:D][:D]




republicofpepsi -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/17/2013 12:42:41 AM)

I hate for my post in here to be in any way misconstrued that I don't adore the game and am thankful for the developers. I think it is amazing that we have a developer who will hear such a request and actually try and find a way to accomplish it. On top of that we have a game so encompassing and solid that we can spend our time asking for these "cream on top" items instead of having to beg to have a broken game fixed.

I sometimes spend most of my gaming time just reading through the database finding things I never knew existed and shaking my head at the time it took to get all of that info researched and input...



smudge56 -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/17/2013 10:24:36 AM)

It's a great way to learn history and new things. I love that part it gets the little grey cells going [;)]



miller7219 -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/18/2013 1:32:35 AM)

I've noticed the AI tends to use a lot or ordinance. I'm not familiar with modern naval engagement profile in the real world, but it seams for SAM or ATA missile/aircraft engagements the AI is set to fire 2 weapons at each target. I support this by noticing that if a single SAM/aircraft engages a target it always fires 2 missile. If 2 SAM/aircraft are engaging a single (the same) target each fire 1 missile each...and any other nearby (in range) SAM/aircraft hold fire. Is it standard doctrine to allocate 2 missiles per air target?

As for SSM engagements I haven't been able to pick up on a consistent methodology of how the AI determines how many SSMs (or other applicable weapons) to fire. It does tend to fire plenty though! Often seems to be wasting ordinance on easily killed targets. Can anyone shed any light on how the AI determines the number (or type) of ordinance to fire? I'm guessing it would be considering the size of the target (target's damage points) and the power of the applicable weapon(s) (weapon's damage points) at the very least. Does MTH ratio come into play any...the targets AAW defensive missile systems specs, directors/channels on target to control engagements, all amounting to calculating the air defense saturation value of the target to some degree?

May be discussion for a different thread, but likely an interesting one!



ExMachina -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/19/2013 4:05:23 AM)

quote:

Doctrine etc is planned in the future, but is pretty complex and may take a while to do. I've already added 'typical salvo size' in the database for SAMs and AAMs, so the info is there.


But did you intend for SAMs to fire in pairs and then--if the first one misses--to have another pair fired before the second missile resolves? That behavior can really eat through a ship's SAMs



brassem -> RE: How to control number of missiles fired ? (10/19/2013 4:19:18 AM)

This falls back on the state of the units experience which I think is on the list of things to look at. A well trained unit will shoot and see if they took them out. A raw unit will shoot, shoot, shoot, "did we survive?".



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