Melee Combat (Full Version)

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troopie -> Melee Combat (3/1/2001 7:24:00 AM)

So we're going to have melee combat? There's just one thing to say,..AYO GURKHALI!!!!! troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete



mogami -> (3/1/2001 7:45:00 AM)

Hi, I will add "Heia Safari" ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!



Wild Bill -> (3/1/2001 9:40:00 AM)

Banzai! I've seen it. I love it! WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



USMCGrunt -> (3/1/2001 12:34:00 PM)

I have to stick with the tried and true, "Go gettem' Marines!" ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.



Wild Bill -> (3/1/2001 1:16:00 PM)

I can't help it! My blood is up! I gotta add one more... "FIX BAYONETS!" Buyah! WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



mogami -> (3/1/2001 1:25:00 PM)

"For England, Harry, and Saint George!!!!" "Give em Hell!!!" "Damn the Potatos, full speed ahead" "Fredricksburg! Fredricksburg!" "give em the cold steel boys" "honest Charlie Brown I won't let go" ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!



frank1970 -> (3/1/2001 2:33:00 PM)

"Sprung auf, Marsch Marsch!" "Hurra!"



Don Doom -> (3/1/2001 4:52:00 PM)

May the cold steel of your baynets perice their cold black Hearts my boys! ------------------ Doom



ruxius -> (3/1/2001 5:04:00 PM)

FOOOORZA E ONOOOORE !!!! ALL'ARMI !!



Dedas -> (3/1/2001 5:50:00 PM)

Ha ha! Melee combat would be great and much more realistic than the usual close combat shooting! Hurraah!



molset -> (3/1/2001 9:27:00 PM)

Gentlemen. Stalingrad will never be the same again! Could this game get any better. Hopefully, but could anybody have dreamt about how it is now a couple of years ago. Not me and Im loving every minute of gaming. Salute to you Matrix men! Regards molset "Jakki er ekki frakki nema sidur se"



Panzer Capta -> (3/2/2001 12:07:00 AM)

Mele will certainly be an outstanding addition to the game....especially for urban fighting and for the US Marines vs Japan scenerios.



lnp4668 -> (3/2/2001 12:51:00 AM)

Melee/overun attacks sound great, and definitely will be a better feature for spwaw. Since there are not enough information right now, my question is: Will there be a change in the surrendering algorithm? Will a disrupt unit pulls back from the hex or will they just surrender like right now? Maybe the relative strength of the units will play into the equation such as a full squad will less likely to surrender to a recon section, etc.



Paul Vebber -> (3/2/2001 5:29:00 AM)

We are still working on the details, what they end up being will be documented in general in the manual. The basic design philosophy behind the rule is based in miniatures - if occupying a hex with an enemy unit the attacker takes a "gut check" to initiate melee/overrun. If that fails the defender gets a "free opfire" at it and it gets suppresed. Unfortunately things can't be driven out of a hex, (The reason is arcane, but the cure is worse than the disease, so they can't) so the attacker cowers back to his "corner" of the hex. If really unlucky/depleted it can surrender. IF it passes the gut check, the defender takes one - if it fails the attacker gets a free melee whack at it and the defender responds with survors and at 2/3 strength. IF the defender is pasted too bad, it can surrender. IF both pass, then hand-to hand combat ensues. Each man has an attack factor computed (nominally between 10 and 40% based on a host of factors) each man is diced for and the successes cause enemy casualties. Both are applied at teh end of the round. Overrun is similar, but the vehicle has an attack factor and instead of attacking back, the victems attempt to evade. There are some other things we are looking at, but its difficult to do anything other than individual squads against individual squads the way the game is set up, so multiple squads melee the survivors of the first squads attack. In general 3 melees is assumed the average to prove conclusive (defined as surrender or elimination of all one sides troops) though it happen immediately or take as many as 5 (very rarely more). That is either turns of the units occupying the hex (ie 5-10 minutes of fightin time 1-1) or a 3-1 advantage in a single turn (3 enemy squads occupying the hex with the defender and all meleeing sequentially. Its not perfect, but seems to work pretty darn well so far! If you want to stornm entrenched of fortified units rather than take pot shats tem all day, its one way to do it, but you better have a numerical advatage in squads or a really big morale/experience advantage! [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited March 01, 2001).]



Panzer Capta -> (3/2/2001 5:50:00 AM)

I think the melee concept that you have proposed is very logical given the constraints of the program engine. Based upon historical facts, the soviet infantry was far superior to the germans in "close combat" tactics and, therefore that must be factored into the equation. In other words, a given german infantry unit may be far superior to a soviet infantry unit in "normal" combat, but the same soviet infantry unit will likely be far superior in "close combat". As a general question, how will melee differ from assault?



Paul Vebber -> (3/2/2001 6:01:00 AM)

The national characteristic differences are one of teh things still in works. Assault only works against vehicle targets, melee is "assault" vs other infantry. Its most useful to root infantry out of entrenchments and stone buldings and the like, where you would have to shoot several units, turn after turn to get them to retreat, or in close terrain against an enemy with superior firepower and you don't relish duking it out at 1 or 2 hex range w/rifles vs SMGs or the like. [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited March 01, 2001).]



Panzer Capta -> (3/2/2001 6:19:00 AM)

And the third concept is the overrun, which i assume is vehicles (tanks) taking the initiative over infantry.



chanman -> (3/2/2001 7:01:00 AM)

To the battle cries above must be added the one that surprised a Brit unit attacked by cannibals: "Meat! Meat!"



CF_Medic -> (3/2/2001 8:43:00 AM)

Well there's always my unit/branches battle cry........ .......You want me to go WHERE!?!?! Send the walking statistics, thats what they're trained for ------------------ Militas Succurimus



BruceAZ -> (3/2/2001 9:02:00 AM)

Paul: This will work especially well with pacific scenarios using Japanese banzai charges! Well done! Bruce Semper Fi ------------------ "The most important element in war is man. And there are no tougher men than my China Marines." Major Gen. Archer 'Archy' Vandegrift, 1st Marine Division



MaxGross -> (3/2/2001 10:27:00 AM)

Paul Will there be any sounds attached like yelling and screaming, the rusling of equipment as when infantry move now in the game? ---------------------------------- "...after all diplomacy, subtlety and the regard for someone's feelings never seemed to blend well with the spirit of the bayonet." [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



mogami -> (3/2/2001 10:33:00 AM)

Hi, yes definatly make lots of yelling and screaming (and calls for momma from loser) One of my favorite things about SPWaW is the sound effects (like when a tank blows up or flamthrowers) I liked using the Finns because they yell all the time while they are kicking butt. (only wish I knew what they are saying) ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!



appunk -> (3/2/2001 1:40:00 PM)

Will there be a seperate section added to the preferences screen which allows one to vary the effectiveness of melee and fire attack against infantry units independently of one another, or will changing the current "infantry toughness" affect both melee and small arms? Thank you



Randy -> (3/2/2001 2:14:00 PM)

OK troops, FIX BAYONETS! we're going over the top! Semper Fi Randy



Wild Bill -> (3/2/2001 2:23:00 PM)

Oh you'll love the attached sounds that you will here when a melee or overrun takes place. Screams, grunts, tank engines revving (overrun), gunfire, it is the real thing! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] It is the only time you hear these particular ones. Brand new, done by our own David Heath! Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Kettu -> (3/2/2001 2:50:00 PM)

Mogami, Actually, I don't think finns made lots of noise in battle. Shouting battle cries isn't really finnish way. More shooting and less chatter... in combat *grin*. In spwaw, having played as finns (my countrymen), I remember hearing "Tulta!" (=Fire!)... "Hakkaa paalle" would be a nice thing to hear... -Kettu



Marder_MatrixForum -> (3/2/2001 3:16:00 PM)

"Panzer marsch!!!"



lnp4668 -> (3/2/2001 9:03:00 PM)

Thanks Paul, I am still currious about a few things: 1. How many melee attacks will a unit have? Will it be the same as the number of shots available? 2. If overrun vehicle will not be attacked, instead, the target evade, wouldn't this make the attack vehicle too powerful? In rough terrain, shouldn't there be a chance for the little infantry to get at the vehicle?



mogami -> (3/2/2001 9:07:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Kettu: Mogami, Actually, I don't think finns made lots of noise in battle. Shouting battle cries isn't really finnish way. More shooting and less chatter... in combat *grin*. In spwaw, having played as finns (my countrymen), I remember hearing "Tulta!" (=Fire!)... "Hakkaa paalle" would be a nice thing to hear... -Kettu
Hi, makes sense to me, what I meant was of course relating to SPWAW (Finns always have a loud party blowing up my T-28's and routing my green infantry) Perhaps some of the posted national battlecries can be used (for historical flavor) ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!



Paul Vebber -> (3/2/2001 10:08:00 PM)

1) one melee atack per turn - we tried to do "rounds" where some got more involved than others, but it didn't work...ITs not easy to get it to occur, it works best with a company sized force mobbing over a platoon sized force over a couple of turns. 2) Generally infantry better be pretty suppresed when a vehicle tries to overrun it (especiallyif it has AT wepaons) or it can get assaulted when it moves adjacent, can get assulted when it moves in the hex, and can get shot at (or I think assualted) if it fails its "gut check". If the infantry has no AT weapons then it can shrugg most of those off, but once the vehicle begins trying to run over slit trenches, smush the infantry and shoot them at point blank, then the infantry are going to be getting out of the way. We'll see we will likely tweak it one last time before release...



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