RE: Physical Only ? (Full Version)

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Challerain -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 3:25:00 AM)

I think ONLY is a strong word. Eric has used the term PRIMARILY, which means they are not dismissing computer gamers entirely. Also, another post in the WIF forum talks about the new European warehouse that is opening early next year which will hopefully reduce the shipping.

The issue now is the horse is out of the barn. Say that Matrix does realize there is a market for a download only option at the same price and announces this as going into effect. Now they have to deal with all the people who bought it and paid for the shipping who may not have wanted the books yet went ahead and got it because it was the only option. No matter what they do they are in a tough spot.



76mm -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 5:18:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
But if it's not the answer you want............................................. oh well.


well, it's not really that it is not the answer I want, it is just that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is like a car manufacturer saying that "we think this car only looks good in black, so that's the only color we're going to make". ("You can have any color as long as it is black". That was a great solution...in 1900...

So what next? Matrix determines that player's can't properly enjoy a game without a 40" monitor, so you need to buy one of those too? Or maybe that I can't enjoy a Russian front game unless I'm wearing a fur hat? Give me a break...



aspqrz02 -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 5:20:55 AM)

Since there have been 'suggestions' that a significant number of potential purchasers were ONLY interested in a DD only option for many many months before the release, despite excuses for the decision, they can hardly claim to have been 'unaware' of the issue ... possibly unaware of the number, but not of the depth of feeling or the issue of lost sales!

YMMV

Phil McGregor



Challerain -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 5:55:15 AM)

Was it really many months? Maybe I missed it but I thought it was only a few weeks.



Mynok -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 6:35:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

So, let's put this in perspective ...

a) Matrix's pre-release sales assessment was, allegedly, that ONLY owners of the boardgame would ever want to get CWiF

b) That they'd automatically want yet another print copy of the rules, despite already having them

c) That they'd want (b) DESPITE potentially HUGE shipping costs and customs duties for non-US orders even so

... I can almost believe that. Almost, even though (b) is implausible in the light of (c), which beggars belief

What I cannot believe is that

d) Matrix, on finding that there are people who will buy a download only version of the game, and buy it willingly, FOR THE SAME PRICE AS THE PHYSICAL COPY

and

e) Consider it an excellent bargain to avoid excessive shipping and customs fees

and yet MATRIX WON'T EVEN CONSIDER TAKING THEIR MONEY.

From a market segment their pre-release research allegedly didn't even suspect existed.

They are *rejecting* the chance of additional profits ... which makes no sense in any universe that I am aware of.

YMMV [;)]

Phil


Which is exactly which I logically infer that they CANT.




aspqrz02 -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 7:44:01 AM)

In which case ...

* Choose the 'ship to a false US address' option, which will cost $9 and not whatever ridiculous shipping and customs duties would apply to the completely unwanted physical components and you really don't care what happens to it, do you?

Cost: A$112.99 (whatever that is in US$ or your local currency) plus US$9 in shipping rather than, in my case, another A$45 or so to ship to Oz, where no customs duty or other charges will apply.

* Ship to a US Remailer and pay them to either destroy the whole shebang instead of shipping it on (as long as you pay their basic per shipment charge, which is $8.50 for the one I use) or to strip out the CD, discard the books, and ship the CD to you (which would cost a couple of bucks extra, plus the cost of a CD Mailer and postage, at the remailer I use) if you prefer.

Cost: A$112.99 (whatever that is in US$ or your local currency) plus US$9 in shipping plus US$8.50 to destroy it and, say, another $10 on top of that to strip out the CD and discard the books. A bit more expensive, but still a lot less than shipping the whole thing and, AIUI, a lot less likely to attract the attention of Customs.

* Don't buy it at all ... hoping that Matrix will eventually leave the Buggy Whip manufacturing era.

Cost: Zero. But a lot of missed gaming pleasure.

* Keep complaining and hope that Matrix eventually makes it available by DD.

Cost: Zero. But a lot of missed gaming pleasure.

Personally, I'd suggest the first two options are the best ones for those who really don't want to pay for un-needed physical stuff.

Phil



76mm -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 8:52:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Which is exactly which I logically infer that they CANT.


i agree that it seems clear that they can't, but I'm still struggling to understand how/why this sales model is in anyone's best interest, as the reasons I've seen so far are less than convincing.



Gizuria -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 10:37:00 AM)

A quick look through the Matrix stable of games reveals that pretty much everything they offer is available to purchase with a digital download option. The fact that they're selling this game without the option for a digital download purchase is a massive departure from the norm. This is not how they do business. I don't for one second believe that they think we need these hard-backed manuals to play the game. So my feeling is that they have had to sell it this way as part of the deal they signed at the start in order to make a computer version of this great board game a reality.

FWIW, I bit the bullet and bought it yesterday and it is every bit as awesome as I'd hoped it would be. After a ten year dry spell of no WiF, it's so good that I don't see me playing very much else for a long time to come. And I know I'll finally be able to play the entire global war scenarios because I won't have to set aside vast areas of living space to keep the boards set up. Before I could only play either the European or the Asain war scenarios/campaigns.



JiminyJickers -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 11:59:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

The proper answer is in this very thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We looked at it this way - this is primarily a game for tabletop WIF players. It is also an awesome computer wargame just as it is an awesome tabletop wargame, but without an AI in the initial release, that's a hard hill for many primarily computer wargamers to climb, who are used to AI releases. The WIF community, as a primarily tabletop community, is also used to getting a good physical package for their money. The work that went into WIF development and keeping it faithful to the tabletop game was beyond anything we've ever done before. Development-wise, this is about ten normal games rolled into one.

So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.

Regards,

- Erik



But if it's not the answer you want............................................. oh well.


But people are willing to pay the same price, just don't want to pay the price for shipping. So that is really not a sufficient answer.

So they are also saying that if you didn't play the board game back in the day, we don't want you to buy this. Or if you do own the board game, but want the digital only version of the PC game, they don't want you to buy it either. It makes no sense.

Anyway, I give up. As much as I would like this game, I give up.

I'll keep an eye on it and hopefully Matrix/Slitherine would come to their senses. I am one very disappointed customer, my faith in this company has taken a big hit.




Texashawk -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 12:24:54 PM)

Their lack of response to this thread, frankly, answers the question loud and clear for me. Sometimes compromise is indefensible, it's just what must be. Like politics. :-)



Lingering Frey -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 1:26:17 PM)

You can find their responses earlier in the thread. The rest has been folks presenting arguments, sometimes reasonably argued, for why they think they should be able to pick and choose which parts of a product they wish to buy, making it cheaper for them to get (or avoiding blowback from a wife.)

I have the same issue with my cable company.

Some of ya'll in Europe have some crazy shipping costs. And high VATs are just so darn regressive, it's sickening. (Not to say our sales taxes aren't pretty darn bad in some parts of the U.S.)

Personally, I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the books. I'm sure I am going to use them even with the PDF and MANY other "help" sources built into the game. (VERY nice job with that Steve, VERY nice.) Even if I don't, I'm going to enjoy displaying them in my house right next to my other gaming books that are mostly just mementos at this point.

If the price was going to be roughly the same (and I cannot believe it wasn't, look at the early speculation in the thread...the price is MUCH lower than I expected even with the books), I am VERY pleased to be getting the books.




Dorb -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 2:02:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JiminyJickers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorb

I think when you look at the price of Command:Modern Air Navel Operations at $94.99 with small paperback manual and you look at this with 3 hardbound full size books for $99.99 - "Nuff said"


You are comparing a physical version with a physical version (excluding shipping), I'm confused.

The point of this thread is that we don't want the physical version. Don't care if it was 10 printed manuals made with love and care. I just want the pdf versions, no shipping involved.





I'm trying to tell you the price is still a good value. - No one cares if you don't want the books, get them and toss them in the fireplace and use them for heat if it bothers you that much. Freight is what it is. I paid $27.00 to have mine shipped. It's life, I'm a wargamer, this is a hobby, hobbies are expensive, it's what we spend our disposable income on. Are you going to be able to find and buy another game like this anywhere else? The two biggest gripes about the game appear to be no AI and the paper books/freight. You know up front what you are getting. It is the way it is being brought to market. If I were feeling as strongly about this as some, I would simply wait. Perhaps down the road They will offer digital at a reduced price. Heck by then maybe all the bugs will be fixed and the AI will be out.

By the way, I understand your anger, I went to New Zealand on our honeymoon back in the mid 90's and thought driving on the wrong side of the road was the worst thing in the world(lol), but you know what, I knew what I was getting into before hand, cost a lot of money (I really didn't have) to get there - and it was the best time ever in your country. It was worth it.[;)]
Cheers.



jzz001 -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 2:24:16 PM)

Nuts!



sanderz -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 2:38:27 PM)

By including the books you got to pay shipping - in the UK this means $53!!!! (in american money). Thats just crazy for something you don't need. I'm crazy as i bought it anyway but it still leaves you feeling a bit ripped off.



Maesphil74 -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 2:54:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorb


You know up front what you are getting.


Correct, but 1 off the problems is that you don't know what you'll be paying when ordering from Europe.
Suppose the game was only shipped from europe and you had to pay 50+ dollars in shipping and then another unknown amount of USD for the clearance/taxes/duties; what would you do?

You really think I'm willing to buy something for 78 euros and then pay another 33 euro in shipping and then still some more euros (could be around 40 euros if they use UPS/FEDEX/DHL) for something you don't want??

It's crazy.
I just spoke to my colleague who has a sister living in Washington; maybe I'll order and send the manuals to her place. It's almost winter I'm sure she has a fireplace somewhere :)



Maesphil74 -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 2:56:31 PM)

.



TheGreatRadish -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 4:25:33 PM)

Is it not feasible for UK and Euro customers to buy now and receive the manuals later from the European warehouse when it opens? I'm sure the postage costs could be pretty accurately estimated. I'd buy it in a heartbeat with that option.

I actually would want the books, but I'm not paying that just to have them sent to me. However, I do agree that it's not right that this is physical only and I completely sympathise with those who are so angry about there being no DD only option. Very sad.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 4:36:32 PM)

Come on Matrix,give us the option!!If people want the books,make them optional as the giant map is.We have always have the choice of physical or DD.Why not with this release[&:]Every other pc game released here has the option.Im wondering if this will be the norm for all future releases[&:]



goulash -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 5:02:09 PM)

OK having looked into it, as a UK player, I am unfortunately not going to buy this game simply due to the shipping cost of 3 books I technically do not need. Sorry Matrix but it is as simple as that. I am not a miser and I have money I throw at games all the time but this one takes it a bit too far IMHO. I agree that the books should be optional and sent at EU shipping prices for EU players.

I no doubt was thinking about the map as my ideal would be a magnetic wall map. But I would like to choose when to get the books as with the Map. I am not going to be forced into paying the current overall price to get the game to mez



CheerfullyInsane -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 5:31:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JiminyJickers
Anyway, I give up. As much as I would like this game, I give up.

I'll keep an eye on it and hopefully Matrix/Slitherine would come to their senses. I am one very disappointed customer, my faith in this company has taken a big hit.


Same here.
I briefly toyed with aspqrz's idea of using a US remailer, and simply telling them to destroy the books.
But having to jump through these kinds of hoops, and vandalizing perfectly good gaming material in the process is just plain bonkers.



Mynok -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 6:31:47 PM)


There will be a European distribution point early next year. Hopefully the shipping will be less onerous for the overseas. Not sure that helps the down unders.



aspqrz02 -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/9/2013 11:34:43 PM)

At least all we have to consider is the additional mailing costs ... there are no customs duties or sales taxes on imports under $1000 as the gummint (sensibly, for once) did their sums and found that it would cost more to check and determine whether duties were collectable and/or collect those duties than they'd get back for items under that amount ... at least that's the way it is at present, and will remain that way until Gerry Harvey and his rent-seeking retail store pals get it changed to benefit their 19th century ripoff business model with their inflated prices.

I toyed with getting it shipped to my remailer who, typically, can get 50-60% discount on the shipping charges lazy sellers (and RPG and Computer Game sellers mostly qualify, I have no idea whether Matrix does) accept from Fedex/DML etc. ... but since the shipping was only $45 extra on top of the $111 for the game, and I'd been prepared to pay c. $150 for the game, it was not worth it ... $9 shipping to the remailer, $8.50 handling charge by them, and, maybe, $20-25 for shipping ... almost the same amount as Matrix charges.

Since I don't have any objection, per se, to having the books ... and, though I use my iPad for reading a fair bit these days, I still prefer books that can be propped open and thumbed through for RPGs and Computer Games, I don't mind the actual physical shipment, even though I am playing the game (or fiddling with it, more correctly) right now. Of course, the fact that the shipping charges are ALL that an Aussie customer will pay extra adds certainty, whereas other non-US customers have real problems that I appreciate.

Still, it's a crazy business model from Matrix.

Phil



goulash -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/10/2013 12:07:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: goulash

OK having looked into it, as a UK player, I am unfortunately not going to buy this game simply due to the shipping cost of 3 books I technically do not need. Sorry Matrix but it is as simple as that. I am not a miser and I have money I throw at games all the time but this one takes it a bit too far IMHO. I agree that the books should be optional and sent at EU shipping prices for EU players.

I no doubt was thinking about the map as my ideal would be a magnetic wall map. But I would like to choose when to get the books as with the Map. I am not going to be forced into paying the current overall price to get the game to mez



Update = I bought it just now [:D][:D][:D] so much for my great stance on the position



Dorb -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/10/2013 1:09:14 PM)

Welcome aboard goul.- Doesn't having additive hobbies suck sometimes![:D]


Guess we should all should be thanking them for allowing the maps to be optional,huh.[X(]



goulash -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/10/2013 2:02:41 PM)

TY and yes my hobby is expensive (should have seen my wifes face when she realised I just paid £100 and then saw the gfx lol. Seriously though I am at a point in my life (just hit 41) and tending to want more than todays mainstream games are able to offer. My 2 lads are 17-18 old now so the get them 2 lvl 85 WOW toons etc has passed and I can now get back into playing games I really like (I did like WOW until it was dummed down and rage kids grew).

I have failed to get them into games such as HOI, Combat Mission etc and have spent a lot of money just buying their trashy games to fill the time void whilst they have been growing up. I am now looking for quite complex games that have a long lasting effect and challenge me. The last time I really enjoyed a main stream game was Silent Hunter 3, so much so I did a bit of work with the Greywolves team in the early days.

I look at it this way, = whilst the niche games are initiall expensive, they do fill the complexity and time consuming aspect I need thus I have told the lads, game buying in general is now dead (they should be out pulling the ladies anyway)and am looking for some deep games just for myself (say about 4 or 5 deep games) and then I will just sit back and wait until it comes to a point where the mainstream devs realise that my generation actually are growing out of the mainstream pow pow stuff and are turning to the good old strategic genre more and more.

That said, X Rebirth is on my list for next week :) so Command, Naval/Air, this game and X Rebirth will keep me happy for a while and eventually save me money in the long run. I have 2 more games to get to complete the variety factor.




LargusMeans -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/10/2013 5:41:59 PM)

Long time reader/lurker, waiting for this for 10 years now after playing the original beta. Credit card ready, but purchase time and 158.65 CAD? $40+ for shipping for items I don't want or need? No thanks. I'll continue to play VASL.

And yes I own World in Flames The Final Edition, and no I don't want more crap and clutter in my life. Give me the option to buy the game for $111 digital edition and I'm sold. But I am not paying fedex $47 for shipping for a waste of energy, trees and products that will get recycled immediately. Inane stupidity.

Sorry Matrix, I have spent hundreds of dollars on your products, but not this time. Very poor approach when the same message is being told repeatedly, we don't mind paying the cost, but 40% shipping on top, forget it.




Mynok -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/10/2013 5:47:03 PM)


Isn't it quite obvious that their license restricts how they can sell the game? Why do people insist on complaining then? Buy it or don't.



LargusMeans -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/10/2013 5:57:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Isn't it quite obvious that their license restricts how they can sell the game? Why do people insist on complaining then? Buy it or don't.


And as I stated above, I won't.

But a few addition points....

Eric has edited every post he's made, and I can't find where it says that the license restrictions prevent how they sell the game by forcing players to have to get physical copies. From what I remember from his post, all it mentioned was the licensing agreement was that they couldn't sell the game for a lesser price when buying a DD due to it hurting the value of the board game. Most of us have repeatedly stated, that's not what we want.

Secondly, if your paying the same price for the physical copy when you buy the digital copy, how is that any different other then avoiding a 40% surcharge for a product that has nothing to do with the moneys being received by ADG and Matrix?

Lastly, how much did you pay for shipping?




Greyshaft -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/10/2013 7:14:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargusMeans

Eric has edited every post he's made, and I can't find where it says that the license restrictions prevent how they sell the game by forcing players to have to get physical copies. From what I remember from his post, all it mentioned was the licensing agreement was that they couldn't sell the game for a lesser price when buying a DD due to it hurting the value of the board game. Most of us have repeatedly stated, that's not what we want

So since when does "what we want" ever become the deciding factor for any company selling a product? I'd love everything I buy to be cheaper with more features and hand delivered to my front door at a time that's convenient for me. Reality says that will never happen for you or for me. INHO Matrix had made a pricing decision that is in line with the premium nature of the intellectual property behind World in Flames. If you want a cheaper product then go and find one and play it instead. Strategic Command maybe? It's a great game but not in the same league as MWiF so I'm sure you can get it for less money


quote:

Secondly, if your paying the same price for the physical copy when you buy the digital copy, how is that any different other then avoiding a 40% surcharge for a product that has nothing to do with the moneys being received by ADG and Matrix?

It's not a surcharge - its a DELIVERY charge paid to a non-affiliated freight company for physically DELIVERING the manuals to the location of your choice. Digital Download without manuals is NOT an available option. Now did you want fries with that? (I really sympathise with the guys at Matrix who have to patiently explain this fact of life multiple times).

quote:

Lastly, how much did you pay for shipping?

I paid AUD$42 because that's what the freight charge to Sydney is.



Mynok -> RE: Physical Only ? (11/10/2013 7:18:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargusMeans

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Isn't it quite obvious that their license restricts how they can sell the game? Why do people insist on complaining then? Buy it or don't.


Eric has edited every post he's made, and I can't find where it says that the license restrictions prevent how they sell the game by forcing players to have to get physical copies. From what I remember from his post, all it mentioned was the licensing agreement was that they couldn't sell the game for a lesser price when buying a DD due to it hurting the value of the board game. Most of us have repeatedly stated, that's not what we want.




Of course he hasn't said it. Heard of NDA? But it is easy to deduce why they won't do for this game what they have done for every other game. And I am fine with it. I hope the shipping issues get resolved for non-US soon.



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