RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (Full Version)

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Oberst_Klink -> RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (10/31/2013 3:40:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

quote:

PS might as well get rid of amphibious assaults too...if it wasn't seriously used in any capacity historically there probably was a reason!


The Russians did use amphibious landings. Of course they didn't land a cavalry division in Odessa during the blizzard. I'm fully aware of that. I was just exploiting a mistake my opponent made. It also has been discussed in this forum that the Russians used paratroopers effectively during the blizzard. You can't just get rid of all these game features.

Another tactic of the Russians was to occupy as many German troops as possible with pretty much pointless operations just to stretch them thinner and thinner. That's why Halder complains in his diary that the war is degenerating into a brawl ("Prügelei"). Why can't the Soviet player do the same thing in this game?

Oh well, you mean the amphibious attempt at Novorossiysk in February 1943? Go figure... the captured the city in September 43. As for successful Soviet airborne operations, well... Kanev, but that wasn't really a success. The Germans, after the casualties they suffered in Crete never did large scale airborne ops again; OK, Leros 43 and then the last ditch effort of v.d.Heydte at the Ardennes in 44.

Those ops should still be possible in the game, but with plenty of Admin Points to pay for ;)

Klink, Oberst




Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (10/31/2013 3:56:41 PM)

quote:

the punishment!!


Nice!!! The German army still packs a punch in 43.

And I think with Stef's glorious use of the Luftwaffe we will see 100000 lost Russian airplanes by the end of the war. [:D]





Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (10/31/2013 4:19:49 PM)

quote:

Oh well, you mean the amphibious attempt at Novorossiysk in February 1943?


Herr Oberst,

Did you forget the amphibious landings at Odessa in September 41 and Feodosia in December 41?

Not that I'm using this to justify my own ridiculous amphibious landings. I just like to do stuff.

Making the Soviet player pay AP points for stuff like that is a very good idea!




Oberst_Klink -> RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (10/31/2013 5:35:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

quote:

Oh well, you mean the amphibious attempt at Novorossiysk in February 1943?


Herr Oberst,

Did you forget the amphibious landings at Odessa in September 41 and Feodosia in December 41?

Not that I'm using this to justify my own ridiculous amphibious landings. I just like to do stuff.

Making the Soviet player pay AP points for stuff like that is a very good idea!

I mentioned 'large' operations, dear Pennywise :D And yes, I always got good ideas; should be soon promoted to Generalmajor, shall I not? ;)


Klink, Oberst




Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (10/31/2013 5:46:43 PM)

quote:

I always got good ideas; should be soon promoted to Generalmajor, shall I not?


Straight to Generalfeldmarschall! [:D]




STEF78 -> RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (10/31/2013 6:39:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

I mentioned 'large' operations,


From wikipedia, I think it can be seen as a large operation:

Soviet landings on Kerch and German counter-attack[edit]

On 26 December 1941, the Soviets landed on Kerch, and on 30 December executed another landing near Feodosiya with the 44th and 51st Armies. The operation was to drive to Sevastopol and relieve the garrison, now encircled by the German 11th Army.[3] The 46th Infantry Division, under Generalleutnant Kurt Himer, was the only division in a position to be able to block the Soviet advance. Von Manstein believed it could contain the landing, but the Soviets consolidated their bridgeheads and defeated the attacking Romanian brigades. As a result, the XLII Corps commander, Lieutenant General Hans Graf von Sponeck, chose to withdraw the 46th Infantry division from Kerch through the Parpach narrows to avoid being caught and encircled by Soviet forces advancing from the landing zones located at the extreme east (Kerch) and west (Feodosiya) of the peninsula. Manstein diverted the XXX Corps to support XLII Corps, forming a new front at Feodosiya. They succeeded in sealing off the Soviet armies in the Kerch peninsula. The Soviet landings had saved Sevastopol and seized the initiative.[4] Casualties were high. The Germans lost 8,595 between 17 and 31 December. The Soviets lost 7,000 killed and another 20,000 as prisoners of war.[5]

To slow the Soviet build-up, Alexander Löhr's Luftflotte 4 was sent to the region to interdict shipping. The 7,500 long tons (7,600 t) transport Emba was severely damaged on 29 January. Still, the Luftwaffe failed to prevent the transport of 100,000 men and hundreds of artillery pieces to Kerch between 20 January and 11 February. At Sevastopol, 764 short tons (693 t) of fuel, 1,700 short tons (1,500 t) of supplies were sent to the port. On 13 February, the cruiser Komintern and destroyer Shaumyan brought in 1,034 soldiers and 200 tons of supplies. The cruiser Krasny Krym and destroyer Dzerzhinskiy brought in a further 1,075 men on 14 February. The next day, the minesweeper T410 brought in 650 and evacuated 152. On 17 February, the transport Belostok brought in 871 men. The Black Sea Fleet regularly shelled German positions on the coast. The Luftwaffe increased its pressure, dispatching KG 27, KG 55, and KG 100 to bomb the ports at Anapa, Tuapse, and Novorossiysk on the Caucasian Black Sea coast. On 20 February, the 1,900 long tons (1,900 t) transport Kommunist was sunk by KG 100.[6]

Manstein was unwilling to surrender the initiative, and ordered counterattacks which recaptured Feodosiya in January 1942. The German 11th Army lacked the strength to destroy the 44th and 51st Army in the Kerch Peninsula, and the Stavka reinforced the front with nine rifle divisions. The Stavka created the Crimean Front under Lieutenant General Dimitri Kozlov on 28 January to coordinate operations. Kozlov began a series of offensives in February, March, and April, which were defeated by Hansen's LIV Corps, all with heavy Soviet losses. Petrov's Coastal Army also supported the operations on 26 February, inflicting 1,200 casualties while losing 2,500 in return.[5] A stalemate ensued. The spring thaw arrived in early May, and both sides prepared for the battle that would decide the campaign.[5]




Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (11/2/2013 2:15:19 AM)

quote:

Bozo, the game's airborne and amphibious rules are a bit too freewheeling and subject to abuse. Your opponent has some reason for being irritated. WITW is going to tighten all this stuff up and presumably WITE2 will import those changes.


Flavius, there is plenty of cheese to go around. When I see 150 miles of airbases covering rail lines to prevent partisan attacks I think it's only fair to drop a para brigade to do the job the partisan would have done. When I see 300 Ju-52 supplying a single Corps I think it's fair to drop a para brigade next to those airfields to destroy 80 Ju-52. The list goes on.

I see paratroopers more as a tool for leveling the playing field. It just delays the Axis. Amphibious landings only have an effect if the Axis player makes serious mistakes as you need a port to be able to do anything.

It's all cheese. The question is which cheese smells worse. I would classify para drops as Gouda and amphibious landings as Stilton. [:D]

BTW, I started another game as SHC with house rules: No paratroopers until 42 and no amphibious landings until 43. And I didn't even ask for anything in return.




SigUp -> RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (11/2/2013 8:03:27 AM)

Me and loki agreed on following house rules regarding airborne and amphibious operations: No airdrops prior to November 1941, from November 41 to Junes 42 one brigade per month. These drops can be accumulated (so for example he can choose not to drop anything in November and December and then land 3 brigades in January). No restrictions after Junes 1942. In terms of amphibious, once again no landings prior to November 1941. No landings outside the 1939 borders until December 1942 and no landings west of the Crimea unless Sevastopol is in Soviet hands and not cut off.




Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (11/2/2013 4:45:33 PM)

quote:

Me and loki agreed on following house rules regarding airborne and amphibious operations: No airdrops prior to November 1941, from November 41 to Junes 42 one brigade per month. These drops can be accumulated (so for example he can choose not to drop anything in November and December and then land 3 brigades in January). No restrictions after Junes 1942. In terms of amphibious, once again no landings prior to November 1941. No landings outside the 1939 borders until December 1942 and no landings west of the Crimea unless Sevastopol is in Soviet hands and not cut off.


This is very reasonable. I just asked my opponent if he would like to adopt these house rules.




rmonical -> RE: Rear area security and Soviet airborne (11/2/2013 5:49:15 PM)

quote:

Your opponent has some reason for being irritated.


I was less irritated than providing a running commentary on Bozo's use of a game mechanism in support of some suggestions to improve the game. Bozo asked if he could push the limit and I said sure as I wanted to explore what other issues might exist in the game design.




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