A test of wills (Full Version)

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mikeCK -> A test of wills (10/30/2013 4:36:33 PM)

Man, I am wrapping this scenario up as NATO. All I can say is that the Soviets have unlimited equipment !!! Damn! So far I have destroyed or damaged 40hq units, 47 tanks, 70 mech units, 65 infantry and I can't remember how many SAM carriers and artillery. They keep coming. It's a great scenario and gives a great feel of what it would be like as NATO during those first few hours.

On another note, I know many are asking for a WW2 version of this. Please don't. If people want a turn based WW2 game, there are dozens. This and Tillers are the only WW3 games that I know of. I would rather have you guys continue to expand and improve this with new theaters. There are tons of WW 2 games.

This is such a great game...thank you



Mad Russian -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 5:59:09 PM)

Yeah, Charles says I'm evil. Have no idea what he's talking about......[sm=innocent0009.gif]

WWII will at some point enter into the picture. Not sure how far down the road that will be. No matter when it is there will always be more modern wars being added to the FPC series.

Good Hunting.

MR




76mm -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 6:10:06 PM)

quote:

On another note, I know many are asking for a WW2 version of this. Please don't. If people want a turn based WW2 game, there are dozens.


meh...name one comparable WWII game (same scale, we-go, level of realism, etc.)?



mikeCK -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 6:11:21 PM)

Yeah there's a ton of them but you know it is not an unbalanced scenario. If you place your infantry properly and get them dug-in and keep a reserve Armored force and use your artillery efficiently you can actually hold off the attack as I found



mikeCK -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 6:27:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

On another note, I know many are asking for a WW2 version of this. Please don't. If people want a turn based WW2 game, there are dozens.


meh...name one comparable WWII game (same scale, we-go, level of realism, etc.)?


Will of course there are no exact copies. But look at decisive campaigns by matrix similar level of detail great operational level games...and a lot of fun. if you want tactical warfare WEGO games you have all the combat mission games. They're are huge s amounts of World War II turn-based, we go and real-time combat games for you to play. I just want to be able to enjoy a different alternative war for a while...like World War III. World War II games are a dime a dozen try to find good World War III games or modern warfare games at this tactical and operational level good luck. Heck, over the command: naval warfare forum there are people asking the developer to make it into a World War II combat engine. I mean, for the love of God! we have one of the only modern naval simulators after a 25-year-old harpoon and everybody wants to turn it into another freaking World War II game.

For the a AGEOD games... there are people that want to turn those into World War II simulators! mean can't the rest of us who arent interested in World War 2 get our wargames for little bit without having all them turned into World War II games? Lol



Mad Russian -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 7:21:57 PM)

ROFL...the issue seems to be demand.

WWII is the Big Seller!!!!!!!!!

Okay, we get that. BUT, WWII is not the only war in history and, as you said, some of the others deserve a little love too.

Where the rub comes in is when a game system may be able to cover all of it. Like CMANO. They want one system that can do it all. I think that's the emphasis here as well. People think that FPC could be one of those cross over systems capable of doing multiple time periods well. At some point we will find out.

The basic reason you'll find out is that there are other wars that use WWII era equipment. Like Korea. If we do Korea and we intend to then there is no reason not to do some WWII era modules/expansions as well.

We are currently trying to figure out what the production schedule is and where to go with the series. Working all that out and getting started in the next couple of weeks, with continued support of the current game, is our highest priority.

Good Hunting.

MR



76mm -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 8:11:21 PM)

quote:

Will of course there are no exact copies. But look at decisive campaigns by matrix similar level of detail great operational level games...and a lot of fun. if you want tactical warfare WEGO games you have all the combat mission games. They're are huge s amounts of World War II turn-based, we go and real-time combat games for you to play. I just want to be able to enjoy a different alternative war for a while...like World War III. World War II games are a dime a dozen...


Yeah, I've played all those games, but they are all very different.

None of the WWII fans are complaining about the current focus on WWIII, so I don't get the hate. I guess we'll have to leave it to the devs to figure out which conflicts to focus on...



trebcourie -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 8:20:19 PM)

Can I play this scenario even if my name isn't "Will?"



mikeCK -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 9:55:24 PM)

No you may not



wodin -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 10:05:56 PM)

Well said..

I can't STAND people who say please DON'T make this or that!..why do that? As 76mm says there are no other games like this for WW2 so I and I'm sure many others would like at some point to see a East front and West front game come out using his system..I don't care for Middle east conflict..but I don' tell them NOT to make it cos I know others want it.
So far we've had someone saying DON'T do East front cos of GGWITE and now Decisive Campaigns..very very odd..those games have no relation to this in gameplay except the setting. Other than that nothing in common..of they have hex and counters.

Please stop saying this sort of thing..it's damn selfish. I've already felt like backing out of this forum because of the Please DON'T make a WW2 game posts.

Your going to get more Modern warfare games with this series..thats obvious..so be happy. Then let those who want to see this excellent system go to WW2 have their wish too.

Last time I'm going to say anything on the matter. Winds me up way too much.

Besides if you really like this game engine you should be really wanting them to do a WW2 game to bring in the money so they can carry on and make those other Conflicts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

Will of course there are no exact copies. But look at decisive campaigns by matrix similar level of detail great operational level games...and a lot of fun. if you want tactical warfare WEGO games you have all the combat mission games. They're are huge s amounts of World War II turn-based, we go and real-time combat games for you to play. I just want to be able to enjoy a different alternative war for a while...like World War III. World War II games are a dime a dozen...


Yeah, I've played all those games, but they are all very different.

None of the WWII fans are complaining about the current focus on WWIII, so I don't get the hate. I guess we'll have to leave it to the devs to figure out which conflicts to focus on...



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 10:08:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm



None of the WWII fans are complaining about the current focus on WWIII, so I don't get the hate. I guess we'll have to leave it to the devs to figure out which conflicts to focus on...


Well, I'm fine with whatever eras we get in addition to modern/hypothetical, but I think the reason WWII fans aren't complaining is that there is no shortage of WWII games of various sorts, from the grand strategic to the micro-tactical. That's not the case for modern/hypothetical subjects. Believe it or not, there are some wargamers who really don't get all excited about the Eastern Front, and would rather explore, say, the Indo-Pakistan conflict, historical and near-future hypothetical, than refight Kursk or D-Day. Me, I'm good with all of it, but I confess to a particular life-long fascination with the modern/hypothetical stuff, so I'm happy to see a game with that focus.

For WWII fans to complain about this game's focus would be like Warren Buffet complaining about someone getting ten bucks more on their tax refund....



Mad Russian -> RE: A test of wills (10/30/2013 10:39:43 PM)

Here is the deal for all you WWII addicts. The largest group of wargames are in one form or another about WWII. If you are interested in WWII there are games you can get.

For those with interests in other time frames it starts to get really thin. I'm like many of you, I like different time periods, most combat situations from the American Civil War forward to the present. I can understand both sides here. It's not an all or nothing with us hopefully. The key is how long we can keep the development team together. This could well be a franchise series if we do it right. [sm=character0272.gif]

Good Hunting.

MR



mikeCK -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 1:33:09 AM)

Edit



mikeCK -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 1:45:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Well said..

I can't STAND people who say please DON'T make this or that!..why do that? As 76mm says there are no other games like this for WW2 so I and I'm sure many others would like at some point to see a East front and West front game come out using his system..I don't care for Middle east conflict..but I don' tell them NOT to make it cos I know others want it.
So far we've had someone saying DON'T do East front cos of GGWITE and now Decisive Campaigns..very very odd..those games have no relation to this in gameplay except the setting. Other than that nothing in common..of they have hex and counters.

Please stop saying this sort of thing..it's damn selfish. I've already felt like backing out of this forum because of the Please DON'T make a WW2 game posts.

Your going to get more Modern warfare games with this series..thats obvious..so be happy. Then let those who want to see this excellent system go to WW2 have their wish too.

Last time I'm going to say anything on the matter. Winds me up way too much.

Besides if you really like this game engine you should be really wanting them to do a WW2 game to bring in the money so they can carry on and make those other Conflicts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

Will of course there are no exact copies. But look at decisive campaigns by matrix similar level of detail great operational level games...and a lot of fun. if you want tactical warfare WEGO games you have all the combat mission games. They're are huge s amounts of World War II turn-based, we go and real-time combat games for you to play. I just want to be able to enjoy a different alternative war for a while...like World War III. World War II games are a dime a dozen...


Yeah, I've played all those games, but they are all very different.

None of the WWII fans are complaining about the current focus on WWIII, so I don't get the hate. I guess we'll have to leave it to the devs to figure out which conflicts to focus on...


Really? ...your serious??? You thought about not posting in the forum because I asked the devs to stay with the current WW3 focus and not move on to WW2? Where is the hate? I didn't say anything disparaging or personal. Why the reaction??? In response to a number of comments asking the devs to make a WW2 version, I simy replied that I would like them to pursue more modern scenarios. So, why is it OK for others to request WW 2 but it's some sort of breach of forum ettiquette for me to request they don't.

It's not that I don't want any WW2 games, it's just that resources and time are limited. here we have some developers who have a great game and an interest in an unusual timeframe for gaming. I would rather they expand that than move into WW2. Others want WW2...fine. It's an open forum. My discussion about the other games was to highlight the same issue, that many WW 2 fans seem to want every military game engine made into a WW2 game. Fine, every minute spent by a developer doing that is a minute they could have been pursuing wars that aren't as popular.

These guys will make want they want...I was simply making a request like others have as to my preference. Aren't you over reacting a bit?



Mad Russian -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 2:24:39 AM)

And all your opinions are weighted the same. We take all comments at face value. We have looked at all the factors about where the series will go. Including where we might make the most money. At this time, cash alone, is not the incentive driving this bus.

Don't get me wrong, money is nice!!! [sm=happy0005.gif]

It's just not what's driving the bus at the moment. We think we can do as well, supporting the series with content, as we can going to some of the possibly more popular venues that have lots of coverage. But, we're wargamers as well, and we would like for the entire gambit of history from 1939 into the future to be covered. The issue is, of course, time and resources. The response you guys have given FPC have opened some doors and opportunities.

So, we'll see. At the moment we are trying to get as much content in your hands, and the tools for you create your own content if you get tired of waiting for us, as we can. [sm=happy0029.gif]


Besides taking a little break before starting down that intense road of Charles breaking everything in site and the rest of us fixing them as fast as we can!! [:-]

Good Hunting.

MR



Monkie -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 5:31:02 AM)

Back to the original post, I played "Test of Wills" first time as the Soviet player and all I could think was "where the heck is the American getting all of these TOW firing Bradleys!" Fog of war can easily make the enemy seem like a 10 foot tall giant that never stops fighting.



trebcourie -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 5:59:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeCK

No you may not


Don't test me.



76mm -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 6:33:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
Besides if you really like this game engine you should be really wanting them to do a WW2 game to bring in the money so they can carry on and make those other Conflicts.


Wodin, you've got it all wrong! There is a huge untapped market for games on Indo-Pakistan conflicts...or the devs should bring out games for which there are only a handful of buyers...or something...

In any event, in addition to all of the additional modern content that the devs have already said they plan to bring out, with the scenario editor, anyone interested in recreating their favorite modernish conflict will be able to do so, so I don't really understand what the fans of modern games are complaining about. I've already said that I think this will be an excellent engine for the Arab-Israeli wars.

And as to using this engine to replay Kursk and Normandy for the umpteenth time--if that's the best you can come up with for WWII gaming, no wonder you don't want to play them!



Mad Russian -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 10:22:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

And as to using this engine to replay Kursk and Normandy for the umpteenth time--if that's the best you can come up with for WWII gaming, no wonder you don't want to play them!


You've obviously never played one of my Kursk or Normandy scenarios!! [sm=Tank-fahr09.gif]

Good Hunting.

MR



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 12:42:02 PM)

I think some folks here need to take their meds...seriously. We have a very cool modern wargame here, the foundation for a new system that can simulate a wide range of conflicts. Its focus right now is on modern stuff, but the developer has indicated a willingness to expand to a lot of different areas as desired and as possible. Everyone should be relatively happy, no?

As gamers, it matters not one whit to many of us whether a particular topic is more marketable than another. That matters to developers and publishers, sure, but it's been made abundantly clear by the variety subjects covered even by games only from Slitherine/Matrix that if your expectations are reasonable, pretty much anything from the Zulu Wars to, yes, Indo-Pakistan conflicts (c.f., Command scenarios) are viable. And as weird as it might seem, there are some of us who would rather play a hypothetical battle between China and Russia than Huertgen Forest or the siege of Budapest. Me, I play pretty much whatever, though I've always loved modern stuff. And I also love variety. I think it's fabulous AGEOD has games on the Russian Civil War and the Spanish Civil War, even though I'm not likely to play them any time soon. I'm nappy Paradox does stuff on the Victorian era. I love that there are games on Rorke's Drift and WWI and all sorts of stuff.

This idea that unless a wargame focuses on WWII, or at least gives WWII equal time, it isn't worthy or isn't viable or something seems rather odd. It's even odder that some folks seem to take this lack of focus on WWII as a personal affront....



wodin -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 2:03:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat



This idea that unless a wargame focuses on WWII, or at least gives WWII equal time, it isn't worthy or isn't viable or something seems rather odd. It's even odder that some folks seem to take this lack of focus on WWII as a personal affront....


Who says that? The fact is the money and sales are with WW2..that wouldn't be disputed by Slitherine or any developer. No one is taking affront that this is a modern game..what I take affront to is people telling the developers NOT to do a WW2 game. I have no interest in many modern conflicts but I wouldn't tell the developers with a "Please don't do blah blah blah" as I know other wargamers do want to see wargames cover blah blah blah theater\war.

The only reason those who want to see a WW2 version at SOME point are speaking out is because of the posts by players who are telling the Dev's not to do a WW2 game. The wargamers who want to see a WW2 version haven't implied other wars wouldn't be as good or the Dev;s should do a WW2 version right this minute or anything like that. Your pointing the finger at the wrong people here.



gexmex -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 2:10:18 PM)

Why stop at WWII/III? Could this not be easily adapted to simulate some of the great Roman campaigns of antiquity? I should think legionnaires would count as dismounted infantry, obviously. Substitute some chariots for BTRs or something. You could have some ballista and scorpion batteries dueling it out over the grunts' heads. Or you could do some kind of time travel thing. Who wouldn't want to mount some Hellfires on a war elephant? [8D]



wodin -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 2:16:53 PM)

Aaarrgghh..no one is saying stop at WW2..just can we also aswell as the other Post WW2 versions or even pre WW2 at some point have a WW2 version.

I do know they designed the game around WW2 onwards warfare..so not sure how much would need to be chnaged for ancients..I imagine alot of work with regards to how they fight and formations and leaders would def need to be in game to influence the battles. Still I'm happy to see this engine branch out anywhere;)
quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex

Why stop at WWII? Could this not be easily adapted to simulate some of the great Roman campaigns of antiquity? I should think legionnaires would count as dismounted infantry, obviously. Substitute some chariots for BTRs or something. You could have some ballista and scorpion batteries dueling it out over the grunts' heads. Or you could do some kind of time travel thing. Would wouldn't want to mount some Hellfires on a war elephant? [8D]



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 2:34:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat



This idea that unless a wargame focuses on WWII, or at least gives WWII equal time, it isn't worthy or isn't viable or something seems rather odd. It's even odder that some folks seem to take this lack of focus on WWII as a personal affront....


Who says that? The fact is the money and sales are with WW2..that wouldn't be disputed by Slitherine or any developer. No one is taking affront that this is a modern game..what I take affront to is people telling the developers NOT to do a WW2 game. I have no interest in many modern conflicts but I wouldn't tell the developers with a "Please don't do blah blah blah" as I know other wargamers do want to see wargames cover blah blah blah theater\war.

The only reason those who want to see a WW2 version at SOME point are speaking out is because of the posts by players who are telling the Dev's not to do a WW2 game. The wargamers who want to see a WW2 version haven't implied other wars wouldn't be as good or the Dev;s should do a WW2 version right this minute or anything like that. Your pointing the finger at the wrong people here.



Other posters have definitely acted as if they are affronted, at least, that's how I read it. And, you also have to consider that there are limits to what can be done. If you do A, you can't always do B. Limited resources, limited personnel, limited time. So, yeah, if it's a zero-sum game, it's perfectly fine to say "don't do A because I want you to do B." You're assuming they can do A and B. I'm hoping they can do A and B. They might not be able to do A and B. In that case, I want A, which necessarily precludes B. That's not an unreasonable approach.

And yes, I do feel there is sense of entitlement that many fans of WWII games seem to have. There are vastly more WWII gamers it seems than any other types, and sometimes I think this disparity breeds a sort of arrogance that equates all military simulation games with WWII games by default. That's how it comes across often, at least.

But this whole conversation is kind of silly, as it's been said that a variety of theaters and eras is under consideration, including WWII. So everyone should be happy eventually.



gexmex -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 2:40:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Aaarrgghh..no one is saying stop at WW2..just can we also aswell as the other Post WW2 versions or even pre WW2 at some point have a WW2 version.

I do know they designed the game around WW2 onwards warfare..so not sure how much would need to be chnaged for ancients..I imagine alot of work with regards to how they fight and formations and leaders would def need to be in game to influence the battles. Still I'm happy to see this engine branch out anywhere;)
quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex

Why stop at WWII? Could this not be easily adapted to simulate some of the great Roman campaigns of antiquity? I should think legionnaires would count as dismounted infantry, obviously. Substitute some chariots for BTRs or something. You could have some ballista and scorpion batteries dueling it out over the grunts' heads. Or you could do some kind of time travel thing. Would wouldn't want to mount some Hellfires on a war elephant? [8D]




I'm sorry wodin, I was only trying to be silly and not really wade into the debate. [:(] twas a poor attempt at humor in a serious discussion.

I am [sm=sign0003.gif], I know.



Mad Russian -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 3:21:32 PM)

I'm moving the discussion of where the series is going to it's own thread.

Thanks for playing.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3454109

Good Hunting.

MR



76mm -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 3:29:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat
Other posters have definitely acted as if they are affronted, at least, that's how I read it.

hmmm, since only Wodin and I have posted on this issue, and you're not talking about Wodin...for the record I guess I am more amused/confused than affronted when people say that the devs should not, must not bring this engine to WWII because there is already WitE, or Panzer General, or [insert other completely different game of your choice].

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat
And, you also have to consider that there are limits to what can be done. If you do A, you can't always do B. Limited resources, limited personnel, limited time. So, yeah, if it's a zero-sum game, it's perfectly fine to say "don't do A because I want you to do B." You're assuming they can do A and B. I'm hoping they can do A and B. They might not be able to do A and B. In that case, I want A, which necessarily precludes B. That's not an unreasonable approach.

dunno, I'm not sure that any approach which assumes fixed resources and therefore a zero-sum game is very reasonable--a successful game (especially one with a robust scenario editor, etc.) should soon attract more resources, be it more money, more programmers, more modders, more scenario designers, more map designers, or whatever. That doesn't mean that the devs will be able to do everything overnight but they should be able to do more than they are doing now.



wodin -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 6:13:07 PM)

No worries mate;)
I'm a n#bhead more often than not at times..
@Wombat..I think as I said we are only affronted because of posts telling the Dev's not to do WW2..thats it really.

Anyway as mentioned it is silly..I just got abit wound up over it like someone was pi##ing all over my cornflakes;)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Aaarrgghh..no one is saying stop at WW2..just can we also aswell as the other Post WW2 versions or even pre WW2 at some point have a WW2 version.

I do know they designed the game around WW2 onwards warfare..so not sure how much would need to be chnaged for ancients..I imagine alot of work with regards to how they fight and formations and leaders would def need to be in game to influence the battles. Still I'm happy to see this engine branch out anywhere;)
quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex

Why stop at WWII? Could this not be easily adapted to simulate some of the great Roman campaigns of antiquity? I should think legionnaires would count as dismounted infantry, obviously. Substitute some chariots for BTRs or something. You could have some ballista and scorpion batteries dueling it out over the grunts' heads. Or you could do some kind of time travel thing. Would wouldn't want to mount some Hellfires on a war elephant? [8D]




I'm sorry wodin, I was only trying to be silly and not really wade into the debate. [:(] twas a poor attempt at humor in a serious discussion.

I am [sm=sign0003.gif], I know.



mikeCK -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 10:43:05 PM)

Edit: deleted.



Mad Russian -> RE: A test of wills (10/31/2013 10:44:39 PM)

Hell is fine now.

Unless of course you're talking about Hell's Crossroads! If you are that's a different issue all together. The best I can do for you there is wish you good luck and...

Good Hunting.

MR



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