The Idiocy of no digital edition (Full Version)

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DBeves -> The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 7:57:21 PM)

As someone else has already pointed out the cost of the game in uk is around £65.

Now I am quite willing to pay that for this game - but the thing I am not willing to pay is half as much again to post me a physical copy I dont want and a set of paper books I dont want. I am quite happy not to have them and pay the same as everyone else for the digital game. Matrix can keep the books as spares and save me the postage.

Can I do this ? No . thats the idiocy of not offering a digital edition.



AxelNL -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 8:12:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

As someone else has already pointed out the cost of the game in uk is around £65.

Now I am quite willing to pay that for this game - but the thing I am not willing to pay is half as much again to post me a physical copy I dont want and a set of paper books I dont want. I am quite happy not to have them and pay the same as everyone else for the digital game. Matrix can keep the books as spares and save me the postage.

Can I do this ? No . thats the idiocy of not offering a digital edition.


It is how it is - but as a proud owner (bought it at Essen) of the books I can tell you they are very high quality. I am reading them at my leasure away from the screen. Learning more than a quick look-up would do, in fact I would never read them on the screen. Well-written as well.



DBeves -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 8:16:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

As someone else has already pointed out the cost of the game in uk is around £65.

Now I am quite willing to pay that for this game - but the thing I am not willing to pay is half as much again to post me a physical copy I dont want and a set of paper books I dont want. I am quite happy not to have them and pay the same as everyone else for the digital game. Matrix can keep the books as spares and save me the postage.

Can I do this ? No . thats the idiocy of not offering a digital edition.


It is how it is - but as a proud owner (bought it at Essen) of the books I can tell you they are very high quality. I am reading them at my leasure away from the screen. Learning more than a quick look-up would do, in fact I would never read them on the screen. Well-written as well.


Fine - and I dont mind having the books - but as I point out - and what was different for you - is that you didnt have to pay for them twice - which given the fact I have to have them posted at half the cost of the game is what I am doing. Its the logic of that I dont understand. Why not offer a digital version - which I would get anyway - for the same cost - but without the physical so I dont have to pay a stupid price to get them delivered ?.



Centuur -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 8:17:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

As someone else has already pointed out the cost of the game in uk is around £65.

Now I am quite willing to pay that for this game - but the thing I am not willing to pay is half as much again to post me a physical copy I dont want and a set of paper books I dont want. I am quite happy not to have them and pay the same as everyone else for the digital game. Matrix can keep the books as spares and save me the postage.

Can I do this ? No . thats the idiocy of not offering a digital edition.


It is how it is - but as a proud owner (bought it at Essen) of the books I can tell you they are very high quality. I am reading them at my leasure away from the screen. Learning more than a quick look-up would do, in fact I would never read them on the screen. Well-written as well.


I agree. The tips on play which are in them are especially valuable for newbies to read. I sometimes even pick up the volume and continue reading. They are not the tough rule book you might expect them to be...



AxelNL -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 8:21:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves


quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

As someone else has already pointed out the cost of the game in uk is around £65.

Now I am quite willing to pay that for this game - but the thing I am not willing to pay is half as much again to post me a physical copy I dont want and a set of paper books I dont want. I am quite happy not to have them and pay the same as everyone else for the digital game. Matrix can keep the books as spares and save me the postage.

Can I do this ? No . thats the idiocy of not offering a digital edition.


It is how it is - but as a proud owner (bought it at Essen) of the books I can tell you they are very high quality. I am reading them at my leasure away from the screen. Learning more than a quick look-up would do, in fact I would never read them on the screen. Well-written as well.


Fine - and I dont mind having the books - but as I point out - and what was different for you - is that you didnt have to pay for them twice - which given the fact I have to have them posted at half the cost of the game is what I am doing. Its the logic of that I dont understand. Why not offer a digital version - which I would get anyway - for the same cost - but without the physical so I dont have to pay a stupid price to get them delivered ?.



I bought the whole set for 150,- at Essen. I think you will pay around that as well, maybe a bit less....
(and I do not count the gas Centuur used to get us there)



Centuur -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 8:24:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves


quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

As someone else has already pointed out the cost of the game in uk is around £65.

Now I am quite willing to pay that for this game - but the thing I am not willing to pay is half as much again to post me a physical copy I dont want and a set of paper books I dont want. I am quite happy not to have them and pay the same as everyone else for the digital game. Matrix can keep the books as spares and save me the postage.

Can I do this ? No . thats the idiocy of not offering a digital edition.


It is how it is - but as a proud owner (bought it at Essen) of the books I can tell you they are very high quality. I am reading them at my leasure away from the screen. Learning more than a quick look-up would do, in fact I would never read them on the screen. Well-written as well.


Fine - and I dont mind having the books - but as I point out - and what was different for you - is that you didnt have to pay for them twice - which given the fact I have to have them posted at half the cost of the game is what I am doing. Its the logic of that I dont understand. Why not offer a digital version - which I would get anyway - for the same cost - but without the physical so I dont have to pay a stupid price to get them delivered ?.



I bought the whole set for 150,- at Essen. I think you will pay around that as well, maybe a bit less....
(and I do not count the gas Centuur used to get us there)


Gas? Diesel! And you forgot the entrance fee at the door of Spiel, parking fee, lunch, etc. etc.... Diner with your wife and kid was very nice... [:D]



Akula23 -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 8:40:28 PM)

Have to agree, surely by insisting that people purchase a physical edition (In a seperate forum post, Matrix have stated that 20-40% of there client base want physical copies (So 60-80% of us dont), they are limiting their sales potential.

Personally I won't be purchasing this game until it comes as a purely digital download, as I will not be forced to purchase products I do not want or need.

That sort of sales strategy is very archiac.



DBeves -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 8:47:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Akula23

Have to agree, surely by insisting that people purchase a physical edition (In a seperate forum post, Matrix have stated that 20-40% of there client base want physical copies (So 60-80% of us dont), they are limiting their sales potential.

Personally I won't be purchasing this game until it comes as a purely digital download, as I will not be forced to purchase products I do not want or need.

That sort of sales strategy is very archiac.


Yes - but its not even that. I am saying I will pay the same price as the physical game. Its not being forced to buy the books - I dont need them - its being forced to pay UPS to bring them too me I dont agree with.



bo -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 8:55:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Akula23

Have to agree, surely by insisting that people purchase a physical edition (In a seperate forum post, Matrix have stated that 20-40% of there client base want physical copies (So 60-80% of us dont), they are limiting their sales potential.

Personally I won't be purchasing this game until it comes as a purely digital download, as I will not be forced to purchase products I do not want or need.

That sort of sales strategy is very archiac.


I feel you have a right to your opinion Akula23 and I respect it, and money spent is a concern for all of us no matter where we live. I thought that AxelNL explantion was right on, this games rules need to be read unless you were a board game player. There is nothing more irritating to me then reading rules on a bright screen sitting in a not so comfortable chair.

At least with the rule books I can relax anywhere and peruse them. Just an opinion, but you do have one other option, and that is do not buy the game if that annoys you. I also think you will have a very long wait for just the download.

Bo



Greyshaft -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 9:51:14 PM)

So if you don't want the manuals then ebay them (sold WITHOUT the game) and just keep the digital download + DVD for yourself... I'm sure you'll have lots of interest.



CSSS -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 10:00:42 PM)

You will NEED the Manuals. I have played this game for 30 years , and it WOULD be Idiocy NOT to release it as they have!



Mynok -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 10:08:26 PM)


At some point one would hope they could get Slitherine involved in the distribution process so that shipping is less of a cost for at least Europeans. But this is absolutely the right choice in format.



Greyshaft -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 10:08:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CSS

You will NEED the Manuals. I have played this game for 30 years , and it WOULD be Idiocy NOT to release it as they have!


I quite agree that you need the manuals. I'm just trying to persuade the moaning minnies who don't want the manuals that they have other options than just complaining on these Forums.



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 10:34:51 PM)

Just got on a few minutes ago.  This was a suprise.  Let me get this right....for 100 bucks you get a boxed game/manuals and a free download of the "Game" it's self?  I need to know this before I buy. [:)]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 11:05:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Just got on a few minutes ago.  This was a suprise.  Let me get this right....for 100 bucks you get a boxed game/manuals and a free download of the "Game" it's self?  I need to know this before I buy. [:)]

Yes.



dougb -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 11:44:54 PM)

I was pretty annoyed to find out that the only shipping option to Canada was Fed Ex. They're extremely expensive at over $40 and that doesn't include the fact that I'll be dinged for the customs charges as well. While the Postal system is pricier than it once was it is still cheaper ( as long as you're willing to wait a couple of weeks) and packages often escape any charges at the border. I order all my boardgames this way.

Doug



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 11:51:58 PM)

Thanks.....bought and DLing now.[:D]
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Just got on a few minutes ago.  This was a suprise.  Let me get this right....for 100 bucks you get a boxed game/manuals and a free download of the "Game" it's self?  I need to know this before I buy. [:)]

Yes.




PipFromSlitherine -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/7/2013 11:53:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dougb

I was pretty annoyed to find out that the only shipping option to Canada was Fed Ex. They're extremely expensive at over $40 and that doesn't include the fact that I'll be dinged for the customs charges as well. While the Postal system is pricier than it once was it is still cheaper ( as long as you're willing to wait a couple of weeks) and packages often escape any charges at the border. I order all my boardgames this way.

Doug

Custom charges may well be levied, but may not. It is entirely outside of anyone's control and you might get lucky. Part of the reason for using a specific carrier was (IIRC) the size and weight of the package.

Cheers

Pip



icitrom_y -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/8/2013 1:36:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine


quote:

ORIGINAL: dougb

I was pretty annoyed to find out that the only shipping option to Canada was Fed Ex. They're extremely expensive at over $40 and that doesn't include the fact that I'll be dinged for the customs charges as well. While the Postal system is pricier than it once was it is still cheaper ( as long as you're willing to wait a couple of weeks) and packages often escape any charges at the border. I order all my boardgames this way.

Doug

Custom charges may well be levied, but may not. It is entirely outside of anyone's control and you might get lucky. Part of the reason for using a specific carrier was (IIRC) the size and weight of the package.

Cheers

Pip



Shipping with any of the carriers such as UPS and FedEx is a well-known problem here in Canada. That Canada Post, acting as the importer instead, often just doesn't charge the consumption taxes nor a brokerage fee is an added bonus.

The real issue is the predatory additional brokerage and related fees that the carriers charge, UPS being the worst of the lot. Many (many!) Canadians simply will not purchase products from the US when there is no USPS shipping option.

Right now, you guys wanted $62 for shipping via FedEx and that's before all the upcoming brokerage fees. I would not have purchased MWiF except I live close to the Canada-US border and sometimes, exactly like in this case, have products shipped to a US receiving agent. Shipping to there was $12.

The carriers have gotten in so much hot water over this including court cases going up to the Supreme Court of Canada, that I think they see the writing on the wall. Now, they offer "higher" services that cost a little bit more but with none of the brokerage fees. Only their bottom-end services, the cheapest, still include the separate brokerage fees.

I guess you guys will have to figure out how many MWiF sales you missed out on in Canada because surely a 40% premium means lost sales. Which, if you have plenty of market in the US alone, you don't care. But, as MWiF is so niche, your market is spread all over the world.
.



Greyshaft -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/8/2013 4:02:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: icitrom_y
I guess you guys will have to figure out how many MWiF sales you missed out on in Canada because surely a 40% premium means lost sales. Which, if you have plenty of market in the US alone, you don't care. But, as MWiF is so niche, your market is spread all over the world.



Against all of that you have to consider how much extra paperwork/negotiation/distraction Matrix would need to endure to attempt what you ask. Maybe they would get a few extra sales (dozens?) but internal management labor costs would soon burn up that profit and then some. I don't like all of what Matrix does but I always ask myself "Is what I want revenue-neutral for Matrix?". If not, then I might make the point in the Forums but I don't complain if it doesn't happen.



mlees -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/8/2013 4:07:31 AM)

Bought my copy. Whew! Now that I finally have it, I'll probably get run over by a bus.

[:)]



76mm -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/8/2013 4:43:34 AM)

was looking at this game until I realized I have to order a physical copy.

I don't want a physical copy. I don't want to pay for postage for a physical copy.

I will of course read the manual in pdf form on my iPad, like for every other game I've bought in the last five years.

Please get with the 21st century, until then no interest...



icitrom_y -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/8/2013 5:05:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft


quote:

ORIGINAL: icitrom_y
I guess you guys will have to figure out how many MWiF sales you missed out on in Canada because surely a 40% premium means lost sales. Which, if you have plenty of market in the US alone, you don't care. But, as MWiF is so niche, your market is spread all over the world.



Against all of that you have to consider how much extra paperwork/negotiation/distraction Matrix would need to endure to attempt what you ask. Maybe they would get a few extra sales (dozens?) but internal management labor costs would soon burn up that profit and then some. I don't like all of what Matrix does but I always ask myself "Is what I want revenue-neutral for Matrix?". If not, then I might make the point in the Forums but I don't complain if it doesn't happen.


I believe that's what I said, or at least meant to say. I.e. if it makes economic sense I think one ought to oblige in order to maximize profits.

I say that based on Canada being the US' largest export trading partner in the world, triple that of China. Without having done the research and number crunching, I just assumed that lost sales in Canada would be a significant dollar amount. At a 40% premium for shipping, the lost sales must be a serious number.

Moreover, it's weird, because I do get a bunch of stuff from some US gaming companies and individuals (via the USPS) and they don't seem to have a small army of workers handling shipping to Canada. The form is a sticker about 2" x 1". It takes me all of 10 seconds to fill in the weight and value when exporting to the US.

From what I gather, it seems to be all about sending some guy to the post office with an SUV or mini-van and dropping off the shipments. I think companies just prefer dealing with one fulfillment centre, their prices be damned. With thousands of shipments, I do see the logic. I'm not sure I see it with the numbers here. If I were the business owner, I'd be doing it on my way home. I bet I could fit a couple of hundred units into my car everyday.

I may well be all wrong but I've looked into it and I really don't see the hardship. Take for example, Multiman Publishing, who sends me packages to Canada all the time for $12-$15 in shipping.

I dunno. $62 for shipping, I wouldn't have purchased MWiF if I hadn't been driving across the border anyway.
.



Hertston -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/8/2013 8:29:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Custom charges may well be levied, but may not. It is entirely outside of anyone's control and you might get lucky. Part of the reason for using a specific carrier was (IIRC) the size and weight of the package.


Crap. While us punters may talk about getting 'lucky' and such, the vendors ought to be concerned with complying with the law of the respective countries, don't you think? In the case of the UK, 'custom charges' are not payable, but the 20% VAT is. It remains payable whether the package passes unmolested through the system or not, and whether it is paid (and I'm no saint either!) remains totally inside the purchaser's control. Which makes ever more inexplicable why this is shipping to Europe from the US. Slitherene is based where, exactly ??

All that aside, the price here is actually reasonable IMHO; in contrast to 'Command' (no way, a 'premium' release - yet) for example. WiF might actually make my Christmas list, rather against expectations.

And all that aside.. on the paper manual thing. Don't need them in hardcopy - that's what many of us have tablets for. They are actually MORE convenient that trying to hold open a precariously balanced book with one hand while trying to use a mouse with the other!





wodin -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/8/2013 11:37:39 AM)

I think people form the UK need to be warned that if it gets stopped at Customs and it comes from the States you could be facing a big fee. UPS wanted £30 for Command Ops..and last week I was charged £10 for an £18 item..granted only £2 for Customs but Royal Mail threw a £8 charge onto it. SO it seems you also get charged by them aswell. Someone mentioned it maybe around $20 which is abit misleading from my experience. This is the reason I wont buy it..now if it was download only and I see no reason for it not to be as the manuals come in PDF and many have E Readers it just makes no sense at all. I cna only presume ADG wnated it this way to keep the price high so the boardgame was still going to be sold.



DSWargamer -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/8/2013 12:07:38 PM)

I love my tablet, I mean I have two of them, clearly I like them.

My 10 inch is a bit large though, and I use my Nexus 7 in my purse. My Asus Transformer tends to sit on my desk pretending to be a TV screen most of the time.

But if you could look behind me, you'd see my real thoughts on tablets, the shelving with all the books in HARDCOVER, because sometimes, the real thing is all I want. And not cheap economical softcover but the initial release in hardcover, and not marked down hardcover, the full price version. Not a book club version either.

99% of the reason I bought a tablet, is because carrying all my rolegame books to a friends house to play the game was killing my back, not to mention with some games just plain impossible. That, and in some cases, some hobbies, the books appear, and are gone inside of a year, so if your target was released 10 years ago, you likely can forget finding it. Tablets help reading pdfs of books you are never going to own as physical due to lack of product existing at all.

But inasmuch as tablets are handy, they are also not the re invention of the process. Even turned the pages of one? You want to go from page 10, to page 190, to page 350, then back to 41 then to 150. That's not normally something I like doing with a tablet. They're powerful, but not perfect. And thumbing pages is a good deal simpler.

I don't think this is about 'keeping the price high' so the board game remains in sale. Maybe not such an illogical notion, but I don't think it carries any weight.
Just like a pdf is not a book, a computer screen is not a paper map either.
I would prefer to play the real map and push real counters. But fortunately I am not forced to.
And fortunately no one is being forced to buy any of this either.

It's nice that ADG has permitted Slitherine Group to market this at all eh. They were not required to.

As for all the grief of being in the UK, hmm how to say this. It's not ADGs fault you live there eh. Hey, we all know how thrilling it is to live in Aus when it comes to buying things there from elsewhere. If you don't like the conditions, you might want to bring it up with your local not worth their income politicians. It's there fault eh.



Maesphil74 -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/8/2013 12:15:17 PM)

quote:



But inasmuch as tablets are handy, they are also not the re invention of the process. Even turned the pages of one? You want to go from page 10, to page 190, to page 350, then back to 41 then to 150. That's not normally something I like doing with a tablet. They're powerful, but not perfect. And thumbing pages is a good deal simpler.


So you find tablets not perfect for reading pdf manuals? Great; you get the physical option. Nice for you.


I think my ipad mini or ipad2 is just perfect for reading pdf manuals (all hail to the 'search function') next to the keyboard. Great; I'll get the download only then. Ah, wait a second here, ****. Not so nice for me.


Choice/Options/diversifying your offered products.
Ah, well whatever.



Erik Rutins -> RE: The Idiocy of no digital edition (11/8/2013 1:28:25 PM)

Hi guys,

I agree the shipping outside the US is higher than we would like. Granted it is a large and heavy package, but I'm bummed that we could not get the shipping costs lower. We worked with our partners on this and these are the lowest charges we could get. The shipping is 100% pass-through cost for us, we don't get any of it, it just covers the shipping. We do expect to have a European warehouse open in February/March which will reduce the cost somewhat, we've typically had a European warehouse throughout our history but lost our previous one earlier this year and it's taken longer than we were hoping to get a new one online. So for the time being, this is the best we can do. On the plus side, the international shipping is trackable and by air.

Living in the US, personally I've always been amazed how much more expensive it is for me to ship something just across the border to Canada than to ship it within the US borders, even if the difference in geographic location is only a few miles.

Regards,

- Erik



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