On the fence (Full Version)

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henri51 -> On the fence (11/11/2013 12:37:22 PM)

I have played both sides of "The Russian Campaign" to death back in the old days. That was much later than my start in Wargaming in 1962 with Avalon Hill's Gettysburg". Then I played most of the games that came with Strategy and Tactics Magazine, always playing both sides with cardboard counters.I was not a big fan of monster games like Third Reich (I would set them up and my mind would boggle as I stared at the map for an hour before going on to something else), although I played it (I even played Advanced Squad Leader, not to mention Panzer Bush (errr Blitz) and similar games, always playing both sides with cardboard counters).

I have never played World in Flames, although its name kept popping up now and then. Now here it is a computer game without an AI. I have not played both sides of a computer game for maybe 20 years, maybe not since the "War in Russia" days.

I am a bit puzzled by this game: the forum seems to be either perplexed people like me or former afficionados of the cardboard version of WiF. I have got into the habit of going to Youtube to see reviews or gameplays of new games (that is how I got around to buying "Command:Air and Naval Warfare" last week(, but the only video on this game is about the cardboard version [:(].

I could be wrong, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the game aims at maniacs of the board game (Hey you can get a nine-foot long map of the game - where the heck is anyone not living in a castle going to find the space to lay that out?).

I have looked at some AARs to get a feeling for the game, but it looks at first sight like a normal counters wargame. People are saying it is very complex, but how can I get a feeling for that? Is it complex because it has a lot of counters and the map covers a lot of territory, or is it complex because there are very complicated rules about everything that require a photographic memory to remember all the rules,or perhaps it is both?

And the price?[X(]. I am trying to find reasons whey I should pay this much for the most expensive wargame of all time without an AI. Maybe for the videos? Maybe the forums need more information focused for players who know nothing about the original game...



Cataphract88 -> RE: On the fence (11/11/2013 1:12:49 PM)

I too am very interested in this game (but put off by the high shipping/customs fees to the UK [sm=00000018.gif]), and would like some information about it.

[sm=terms.gif]Here goes:

1) Is the computer version of 'World in Flames' any good? Is this a must buy game?

2) Will the AI be supplied in a future free patch, or will it be sold as part of an expansion, or will it only be included in a possible 'WIF 2'?

Many thanks for any information received.



76mm -> RE: On the fence (11/11/2013 1:16:40 PM)

Hi henri, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you but pulled the trigger and bought the game a couple of days ago. Here is a link to a thread I started with kind of the same questions:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3462127

I still haven't played yet, because I'm wading through the manuals and the video tutorials. I am generally only interested in the largest campaigns/scenarios in the largest games, so am not intimidated at all by a big game.

But this game is something else altogether...not size-wise but holy crap it has a very lengthy turn process with dozens of phases and sub-phases and sub-sub-phases, etc. and very complicated procedures for resolving naval combat, etc.

I guess it will become second nature after a while, but at first glance it is pretty intimidating. I guess I'll find out soon enough if the game is complicated and fun or complicated and tedious. I honestly cannot imagine playing this as a boardgame where I expect that players would spend 90% of their time arguing about the rules, whereas hopefully here the computer will referee things quite nicely. I bought the game because any game that came out in the 1980s and is still going strong must be doing something right.

And by the way, the map is not 9 feet wide, it is 21 feet wide and 9 feet tall!



76mm -> RE: On the fence (11/11/2013 1:17:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cataphract88
2) Will the AI be supplied in a future free patch, or will it be sold as part of an expansion, or will it only be included in a possible 'WIF 2'?


I seem to recall reading that it will be sold as an add-on.



Centuur -> RE: On the fence (11/11/2013 1:21:24 PM)

You are asking an honest question. First let me say that World in Flames in itself is for me by far the best strategic war game ever made. Now, you probably say: so what...

World in Flames is one of those games where you need a whole room to set the game up in, reserve that room for a couple of years, and start playing with your group every weekend. Now that it is on a computer (even without an AI) we don't need the whole room (except when you want to have house rules involved and such).
Apart from this, the rule book of the board game, being relative small, was food for rule lawyers. The computer doesn't need those. You can or you can't.
Both of these things means that the game at this moment is very attractive for the board gaming society, especially when multiplayer netplay will become available in the future.
The real grognards will probably have a huge basement to put those very nice looking maps to good use. They are a side effect of the development of the game. During beta testing, some of those asked Matrix: "can't you print those, they are great looking". So why not? If you don't want them, you don't need to buy them. They are a nice addition for those people who want to play around with the cardboard counters...

Sure, the base of World in Flames is a normal counters wargame. What makes it stick out against a lot of other things are a couple of things:
First: there is the concept of impulses within a turn. If you start a turn you don't know how much impulses you will get (that depends on weather and the almighty die roll). This means that, providing your units don't get disrupted due to your actions (or your enemies), you might be able to move them quite a lot in one turn. Theoretically, German Armor could walk from Warsaw to Moscow in one turn (well, if the USSR let you...).
Second: Every impulse you have to make the decision what to do. Use the air force, navy, land or somewhat of everything or do nothing and pray that this horrible turn of events will end now (bonus on the die roll).
Third: the simple way the developers have put the economics in play. You have resources, which you need to move to factories to produce your weaponry. This means maintaining convoy chains, capturing rail lines, prevent the enemy from bombing your oil resources or factories.
Fourth: the naval system. No naval combat is the same due to the search and find rolls (with surprise attached).

The rules are complicated. The game is too, because of all it's possibilities and decision making a player has to do. However, the game also gives you the possibilities to learn how to play. There are the tutorials, the video's and the two small scenario's (Barbarossa and Guadalcanal) which are excellent to learn how to move the pieces around and how things have to be done. In the manuals (which are indeed quite large but very well written) there is advice on good play which can be used for newbies.
After that, start a global war for a couple of turns. Best of all: if you don't like the outcome, cheat by restoring the game...
There are help files available in every form which pops up on screen. The sequence of play is followed by the computer and the button panel will get a little used to at first, but after that I've come to find the buttons I need very easily.

Now, if you want to start directly with global war and don't know anything else yet, than you are in for a nasty surprise. But if you've willing to put some hours in it, I think that you will get a pleasant surprise.








Neilster -> RE: On the fence (11/11/2013 1:32:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cataphract88

I too am very interested in this game (but put off by the high shipping/customs fees to the UK [sm=00000018.gif]), and would like some information about it.

[sm=terms.gif]Here goes:

1) Is the computer version of 'World in Flames' any good? Is this a must buy game?

2) Will the AI be supplied in a future free patch, or will it be sold as part of an expansion, or will it only be included in a possible 'WIF 2'?

Many thanks for any information received.

Hello mate. The game is expensive but it will offer years of enjoyment. The boardgame was absolutely brilliant and this takes almost all the tedium out and leaves the fun bits (while speeding up gameplay tremendously). If you want the best strategic WW2 game with a time-tested and highly refined system then I think it's a must-buy.

The AI will be a paid for add-on but I wouldn't expect it to be too expensive. Before that there is going to be a lot of functionality added for free (more optional rules, more scenarios, up to 6 multiplayer, PBEM). Having said that, the game is very suitable for solitaire.

The game is complex but the computer does most of that for you while you concentrate on your strategic and operational/tactical goals. A lot of the subtlety comes from the interaction between the large number of unit types, varied terrain, the global nature of operations, your control of production and the game systems for air/land and naval war.

The Seven Moments of Wow thread is worth checking out, as are the AARs.

Cheers, Neilster



Peeking Duck? -> RE: On the fence (11/11/2013 1:51:36 PM)

Also, to those who've never played WiF, the moniker of 'complex game' may not be the same here. Whereas in WitP, complex refers to micro-management at the smallest level, WiF is complex in that you must correctly plan your operations far in advance or otherwise risk coming up short. To me, that is the beauty and challenge of the WiF system.



Neilster -> RE: On the fence (11/11/2013 1:57:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peeking Duck?

Also, to those who've never played WiF, the moniker of 'complex game' may not be the same here. Whereas in WitP, complex refers to micro-management at the smallest level, WiF is complex in that you must correctly plan your operations far in advance or otherwise risk coming up short. To me, that is the beauty and challenge of the WiF system.

Yes. There are actually often not all that many units to move but a lot of thought must go into what type of Action (Land, Air, Naval or Combined) to take each impulse (part of a turn) for each major power and what to do with those units. Also, total control of production is very fun (but a heavy responsibility). Those aircraft carriers take two years to build.

Cheers, Neilster



willbowe -> RE: On the fence (11/11/2013 2:06:37 PM)

World in Flames is the only wargame I have ever seriously gotten into, unless you count Diplomacy. I dabbled with a few Avalon Hill games and a couple of Matrix titles like Battles in Normandy, and while they were perfectly fine in their way, I found nothing in them that had me coming back for more. What this comes down to is that I can't conceive of any gaming experience more satisfying than a simulation of the greatest war ever fought, and WiF achieves this with a magnificent balance of complexity and playability. Yes, there's a lot going on in the game, but not counting optional rules that you can very easily dispatch with, none of it can reasonably be said to be there purely for its own sake - the game is as complex as it needs to be to replicate every truly important feature of the war. And the game will lure you in. The air and (especially) land systems really aren't that hard to master, and you will very quickly find the Barbarossa mini-scenario highly enjoyable in its own right. The naval system and the attendant matter of convoys are where the real challenge lies, but once Barbarossa has you hooked you will be motivated to take it on.

I have spent the last decade yearning for the day of MWiF's arrival, making a monthly ritual of checking on this site to read Steve's progress reports with the steadily mounting fear that the project was simply too much and that it would never see the light of day. I can hardly describe how excited I am now that it has, as I simply haven't been able to play the game at all in many years. Keeping the boardgame in one piece for the requisite period of several months had always been a huge logistical challenge, assuming you were even able to find an opponent who was up for it. It's also an indescribable advantage to have the computer taking care of all the book-keeping and rules lawyering for you.

With all that said, my advice to Henri, Cataphract and others in the same boat is to hold off for a while, probably until the AI arrives. The program in its present form is rough around the edges, and those who don't love it already might not have as much patience when confronted by bugs. However, I'm perfectly confident that the game isn't far away form being in an entirely satisfactory state.



Omnius -> A Good Deal (11/11/2013 3:36:55 PM)

For those who have never played World in Flames the board game then you'll love this computerized version. The old WiF board game was difficult to play since it is so complex and complicated, however with the program handling all aspects of bookkeeping this once complex, complicated game has gotten a whole lot easier to play. The new worldwide map is stunning compared to the old board game maps that always left a lot to be desired as far as different map scales making movement different for different maps.

While the game is pricey it is worth the money and the wait. I tried the old original ADG computer game by Marinacci but it just wasn't good enough to really enjoy, especially the production resource planning and shipping that the stupid program always kept rethinking. MWiF is far superior to any other strategic WW2 game, especially Time of Fury which is nothing but Time of Futility and nothing but a cheater's paradise - the absolute worst WW2 strategic game ever conceived..

Omnius



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: A Good Deal (11/11/2013 4:08:38 PM)

My best sales pitch for MWIF is the 7 Moments of Wow thread at the top of the forum. Each 'Moment' has 10 screenshots. The 7 moments cover:
1 - Players Manual
2 - Learning aids
3 - Maps
4 - Forms
5 - Units
6 - Strategic considerations
7 - Playing (over the board & internet)



baloo7777 -> RE: A Good Deal (11/11/2013 4:33:25 PM)

That's it!!! I am purchasing this game...Oh why do you keep throwing roadblocks in the form of weekly deals I have to buy first?!![&:] By buying it now, I can learn the rules and follow along with the forum threads...and understand them even.[:D]



jhdeerslayer -> RE: A Good Deal (11/11/2013 7:56:21 PM)

I've been on the fence too. Really only played (way back when) board games solitaire but have stayed away from that concept for PC games. I'm betting PBEM will be useful when it is available and add a human element. I don't think a game like this will ever have an AI that is tolerable - other than for learning. I played WiF a few decades ago or so (80's?) but honestly don't remember it all that well. I do remember something was unique about it when compared to SPI, AH, etc.

Well guess I should pull the trigger tonight then... Maybe I'll bring the rule book out in the woods with me as hunting season starts soon. :-)



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: A Good Deal (11/11/2013 10:20:51 PM)

Still complex!  At least for me.  But I'am old.



scout1 -> RE: A Good Deal (11/11/2013 11:14:53 PM)

Well, there's a boat load of reasons against me getting this at this time .......

But, reason at times falls by the wayside......

Downloading now ....[:)]



oldbaldwargamer -> RE: A Good Deal (11/11/2013 11:18:30 PM)

On the fence too....have had witp for many, many years but never played it..wanted to but did not...but I LOVE monster war games, at least the thought of them...so I will probably get this..once I sell something.



FroBodine -> RE: A Good Deal (11/11/2013 11:34:47 PM)

Hahaha! We will all succumb to the dark side. It is inevitable. I can't wait to figure this game out and really get into it!



bo -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 12:01:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jglazier

Hahaha! We will all succumb to the dark side. It is inevitable. I can't wait to figure this game out and really get into it!



Remember jg, you only have to California falls into the Pacific ocean [:D] look people if you need help or ideas how to do this or do that post it and we will be glad to help and I am probably older than Titan and have already forgot what I have learned here in testing [:(]

Bo



paulderynck -> RE: On the fence (11/12/2013 12:03:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

I have played both sides of "The Russian Campaign" to death back in the old days. That was much later than my start in Wargaming in 1962 with Avalon Hill's Gettysburg". Then I played most of the games that came with Strategy and Tactics Magazine, always playing both sides with cardboard counters.I was not a big fan of monster games like Third Reich (I would set them up and my mind would boggle as I stared at the map for an hour before going on to something else), although I played it (I even played Advanced Squad Leader, not to mention Panzer Bush (errr Blitz) and similar games, always playing both sides with cardboard counters).

I have never played World in Flames, although its name kept popping up now and then. Now here it is a computer game without an AI. I have not played both sides of a computer game for maybe 20 years, maybe not since the "War in Russia" days.

I am a bit puzzled by this game: the forum seems to be either perplexed people like me or former afficionados of the cardboard version of WiF. I have got into the habit of going to Youtube to see reviews or gameplays of new games (that is how I got around to buying "Command:Air and Naval Warfare" last week(, but the only video on this game is about the cardboard version [:(].

I could be wrong, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the game aims at maniacs of the board game (Hey you can get a nine-foot long map of the game - where the heck is anyone not living in a castle going to find the space to lay that out?).

I have looked at some AARs to get a feeling for the game, but it looks at first sight like a normal counters wargame. People are saying it is very complex, but how can I get a feeling for that? Is it complex because it has a lot of counters and the map covers a lot of territory, or is it complex because there are very complicated rules about everything that require a photographic memory to remember all the rules,or perhaps it is both?

And the price?[X(]. I am trying to find reasons whey I should pay this much for the most expensive wargame of all time without an AI. Maybe for the videos? Maybe the forums need more information focused for players who know nothing about the original game...

I could have written your first paragraph just substituting '65 for '62 and Battle of the Bulge for Gettysburg. But in the late 80's I discovered WiF and got hooked. Definitely in the "maniac" category (well not the maps - Actually guys have posted about wall mounting them and using a metallic backing and then buying magnetic counter holders. However if I play Japan I doubt I’d ever try to invade Australia – too hard on the back at my age. Arctic campaigns are likely out for me too. I'd need one of those little 3-step ladders that I inevitably step off of on the wrong side.)

Anyway there are lots of threads here about why the game is addictive, so I'll just address the complexity question.

Based on your "wargamer resume" I'd expect you would have no difficulty with the complexity of the game.




jomni -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 12:08:35 AM)

On the fence as well. Pretty adverse to playing a war game by myself . which is the only way to play this at its current state.

I do not buy the hours of enjoyment reasoning because there is a big chance that this game will collect dust for me.



oldbaldwargamer -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 12:14:16 AM)

Well, my wife buys shoes, lots and lots of shoes. She admits she only wears 30% of them. So, if I buy some wargames every once in awhile and only play 30% of them, at least I enjoy the fact I bought them. I bought Steel Beasts Pro and still haven't really played that. But at least I have it if I ever want to dive into it...I assume it will be the same with this!



henri51 -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 2:36:06 AM)

Let me add as I pointed out in a new thread that when I wrote the original post of this thread, I thought that the seven "WoW" screens were the first set of screens in the first message of that thread, and only found out afterwards that there are a lot of other screens after the numerous fan comments. So those like me having a hard time figuring out what this game is about can get a pretty good idea by scrolling and reading through that thread.

I was reading the threads by some hardcore WiF players who are disappointed that this game does not have all the capabilities of the board game. I have yet to see a game that has been computerized that had all the features of the original game (remember the furor when they tried to computerize Squad Leader a couple of times?). Since I have never played the original, I don't think that will be a big issue for me.

My philosophy has always (I think) been that if I get a week's play out of a game, I have got my money's worth - and believe me, there are games that I have not played for more than an hour or two...). With this game (if I bite the bullet and buy it) chances are that I will still be trying to figure out the manual after the week...



FroBodine -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 3:08:28 AM)

Amen, henri! My feelings exactly. This is a game to enjoy! It's very complex, but the functionality is really pretty easy for each step. Making the whole game come together to play it well, that's another story. But, I don't think I will struggle with actually playing the game, my struggles will come from making the right moves.

I think this is the major difference between other monster games, e.g. War in the Pacific and War in the East, where people are struggling just to understand how to play the damn game.



alexvand -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 3:37:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

On the fence as well. Pretty adverse to playing a war game by myself . which is the only way to play this at its current state.

I do not buy the hours of enjoyment reasoning because there is a big chance that this game will collect dust for me.


You can play against other humans via netplay right now. Only 2 player at the moment, but multiplayer will follow.

although I would recommend playing solo for a while to learn the game.



jomni -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 4:04:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

On the fence as well. Pretty adverse to playing a war game by myself . which is the only way to play this at its current state.

I do not buy the hours of enjoyment reasoning because there is a big chance that this game will collect dust for me.


You can play against other humans via netplay right now. Only 2 player at the moment, but multiplayer will follow.

although I would recommend playing solo for a while to learn the game.


OK who wants to play with me? 8 to 9 pm GMT+8. I don't have the game but I just want to see if there will be potential opponents. I suspect there are a only a few in my timezone.



Neilster -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 4:11:41 AM)

That would encompass a lot of Aussies and there are a lot of Aussie WiF freaks. Like me, for example [:)]

Cheers, Neilster



jomni -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 4:17:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

That would encompass a lot of Aussies and there are a lot of Aussie WiF freaks. Like me, for example [:)]

Cheers, Neilster



Ok I'm pretty much closer to pulling the trigger.



BletchleyGeek -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 4:28:38 AM)

Here reports a prospective WiF player living in Melbourne :-)



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 4:40:11 AM)

And I know of 1 living in Indonesia and 1 at least in Singapore.



ozpom -> RE: A Good Deal (11/12/2013 5:29:15 AM)

another oz player here , Newcastle NSW



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