[FIXED B519] Excessive missile firing... (Full Version)

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SSN754planker -> [FIXED B519] Excessive missile firing... (11/12/2013 2:34:25 AM)

I have noticed that if two missiles are fired at a target....the first missile hits and destroys the target...your platform will immediately fire another missile, wasting it.

Ive tested this with planes and with ships, both exhibit the same behavior.

Is there a fix in the works for this? It would seem to me that this should be a pretty high priority bug/wrong behavior that needs fixing, as it could affect scenarios where weapons have a finite limit.



ExMachina -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/12/2013 3:33:45 AM)

The AI still needs a lot of work here. Not only the problem you point out, but the AI will also invariably fire defensive missiles at hopeless targets(e.g. inbound vampires that are going to impact well before the SAMs can possible get there). Worse, is when the AI wastes missiles and weapons' illumination on the not-the-most-immediate threats, and I end up losing ships for lack of weapons and/or targeting ability (KaBOOM!)

I've long since taken over micromanaging all my weapons allocations. However, every new patch I'll turn it back over to the AI to see if any improvements have been made...



RabidMortal -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 4:01:45 AM)

quote:

Is there a fix in the works for this? It would seem to me that this should be a pretty high priority bug/wrong behavior that needs fixing, as it could affect scenarios where weapons have a finite limit


Yes. I've already noticed that the game does not handle missiles well.

quote:

I've long since taken over micromanaging all my weapons allocations


Me too. While part of me doesn't mind micro-ing, it can get annoying in bigger scenarios.



Dimitris -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 6:15:15 AM)

Thanks for reporting this, we'll investigate it.



Dimitris -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 6:17:15 AM)

So essentially what you are asking about is an AI clause that goes like "don't fire any new weapon at this target if another weapon is already about to impact on it".

The question then becomes, what constitutes the "about to impact" threshold? 5 seconds away? 10? 15? 30?



navwarcol -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 6:57:38 AM)

I am thinking that if there is something introduced to stop this behavior (which is doctrinally correct to some extent) then the first person whose missiles miss the target, and who next loses his ship because a second salvo was not fired, would report that as a bug also though.



CaptCarnage -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 8:51:48 AM)

Why isn't it a good idea to fire multiple missiles? How can you know that your missile will hit? Fire a few, preferably in waves - sounds like a good doctrine to me.

About defensive missiles: I don't understand the problem - they are fired at inbound missiles that are effectively out of range? I haven't had that situation yet. In fact, the AI will never fire to something out of range and also in manual override it won't let me.



coolts -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 9:27:47 AM)

Firing one missile at rMax to make the target go defensive and lose the initiative, then a closer launch, hopefully within the no escape zone, is pretty standard tactics, (if you have a longer stick). Assume your first shot is not going to hit.

It's better now than earlier builds (beta). Aircraft would shoot their bolt all at once and be winchester pretty damn fast. I never used to auto target and had to micromanage all the time. Now pilots are more frugal, but i would like the option to prioritise ammo conservation, or more realistic, have ammo usage tied to pilot experience levels and side doctrine.



SSN754planker -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 10:25:50 AM)

Im fine with platforms firing 2 missiles at a target, what i have questions about is when a unit fires 2 missiles at a target, the first missile hits and kills the target, then the unit fires a third missile immediately after the kill, thereby wasting the missile.



coolts -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 10:27:19 AM)

That's either a bug or a very sweaty trigger finger.



CaptCarnage -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 12:04:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SSN754planker

Im fine with platforms firing 2 missiles at a target, what i have questions about is when a unit fires 2 missiles at a target, the first missile hits and kills the target, then the unit fires a third missile immediately after the kill, thereby wasting the missile.


Yeah I wouldnt be fine with that either - altough I haven't experienced it myself yet.



ExMachina -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 12:27:25 PM)

quote:

Im fine with platforms firing 2 missiles at a target, what i have questions about is when a unit fires 2 missiles at a target, the first missile hits and kills the target, then the unit fires a third missile immediately after the kill, thereby wasting the missile.


That's close to what I've noticed, but not exactly what the log reports. What I've noticed is that is a friendly unit fires a *simultaneous* pair, if the *first* missile resolves w/o a HIT then a third missile is immediately fired before the second missile (of the first pair) resolves just a milliseconds later. Usually, the result is that the inbound vampire is destroyed by second of the first two missiles, and the third missile ends up just dropping into the sea--a modest delay on the firing of followup shots would go a long way to make this behavior go away.

quote:

About defensive missiles: I don't understand the problem - they are fired at inbound missiles that are effectively out of range?


The reverse: the AI will fire defensive missiles at ANY missile that's within range, even when the chances of intercepting it before impact are zero (so, when the inbound vampire hits it's target, the defensive missile is still several nautical miles away) This happens most often when two friendly groups of ships are operating in moderately close proximity.

And as aleady noted, this kind of "target anything" approach has ultimately (on at least two occasions for me) actually ended up put my *firing ship* in jeopardy because its weapons and weapons' directors were preoccupied in a wild goose chase elsewhere.




thewood1 -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/13/2013 12:28:55 PM)

I have seen this a few times, but it seems to work most of the time. I have wondered if it has something to do with time compression. That is the only time I have seen it.

My main issue is that multiple units in a group fire two missiles at the same target. This seems to happen a lot in ASuW engagements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SSN754planker

Im fine with platforms firing 2 missiles at a target, what i have questions about is when a unit fires 2 missiles at a target, the first missile hits and kills the target, then the unit fires a third missile immediately after the kill, thereby wasting the missile.



Quellist -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/14/2013 11:50:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

So essentially what you are asking about is an AI clause that goes like "don't fire any new weapon at this target if another weapon is already about to impact on it".

The question then becomes, what constitutes the "about to impact" threshold? 5 seconds away? 10? 15? 30?


Any plans/thoughts on opening this (i.e AI - Weapons allocation and "TAC AI") up to the mod part of the community? Through external DLLs, like I think some Quake versions did it, or through other means. Assuming it is viable at all given your design choices.



SSN754planker -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/14/2013 2:10:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

So essentially what you are asking about is an AI clause that goes like "don't fire any new weapon at this target if another weapon is already about to impact on it".

The question then becomes, what constitutes the "about to impact" threshold? 5 seconds away? 10? 15? 30?


That would seem to fix the problem Sunburn. maybe just a clause that gives a 2 second delay. Just long enough for the first and second missiles to have a chance to hit before a third (and potentially wasted) missile is fired.



Hannable -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/14/2013 6:15:29 PM)



It would also be helpful if the game could do a quick computation to see if a SAM will arrive to hit an SSM before the SSM impacts its own target. That way you don't have ships wasting missiles on impossible targets.

Would it be possible to someday set firing arcs? Say you have a VLS system with a 360 degree firing arc. Around 5 nautical miles off the starboard beam is another ship being targeted by SSMs. If we could set the firing arc of the 1st ships's VLS system to 90 degrees forward, our ship would not fire SAMS at incoming vampires off to the starboard side.



thewood1 -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (11/14/2013 7:17:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hannable

Would it be possible to someday set firing arcs? Say you have a VLS system with a 360 degree firing arc. Around 5 nautical miles off the starboard beam is another ship being targeted by SSMs. If we could set the firing arc of the 1st ships's VLS system to 90 degrees forward, our ship would not fire SAMS at incoming vampires off to the starboard side.


Awesome idea...but be careful. I can imagine the number of times I forget about arcs and get hammered for it.



Dimitris -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (4/26/2014 4:37:30 PM)

Fixed in Build 519: The shooter holds fire if the target has incoming weapon(s) with ETA of 5 secs or less.

(We have a much more elegant solution in the works but this works OK as a stopgap.)



Rongor -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (4/26/2014 8:42:20 PM)

nice!
might stop also that shooting of a third missile when one missile of a first pair missed. That also can be annoying.

It seems the AI wants to maintain two missiles inbound at all times until target is destroyed or outside range.



Dimitris -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (4/26/2014 8:57:54 PM)

Yes, that was the primary motivator.

It doesn't matter much when you're firing off e.g. a 64-cell VLS, but when you have for example only 8 ready-fire SAMs (e.g. numerous NATO ships with one Mk25/29 RIM-7 launcher), that extra shot means a lot.



Figeac -> RE: Excessive missile firing... (4/28/2014 12:42:44 PM)

quote:

Fixed in Build 519: The shooter holds fire if the target has incoming weapon(s) with ETA of 5 secs or less.


Sure this is already implemented? I'm still seeing the old behavior (always two missiles per target, no matter if there is already one about to impact).



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