Is Ai cheating? (Full Version)

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astharoth -> Is Ai cheating? (1/22/2003 12:01:56 PM)

a question i must ask because each time i play ai plans always
seem to be working will mine is always stoped by something

ex: all my plane from PM was down du to condition while rabaule
can lauch a huge attack to gili gili

ex: my plane attack minor ship in TF while there hit my main ship

ex: even if i set plane to attack in huge number, they always end up small compare to the jpn that lunch huge attack from there
TF

so is ai cheating to increase the difficulty???????

the last ex: the JPN foolishly(i thought it was foolish) plans to move his Air TF betwwen PM and Gili Gili early in the game
i had my Air TF docked at PM and even if it was set to not react
my tf started to react to the other TF. Next turn my Air tf was at
3 hexes to his Tf and around 6-7 hexes from PM so ive started
to set all my planes(and they all where at 20 less fatigue)to mount a huge attack against his air TF (wheater was partial cloudy)i had 150 plane in my air tf + 200 plane at PM

i hit like 3 bombs with all my plane while they severly damage my
Supply TF and severly damage my air tf

2 bomb 1 torpedo against there air TF

12 bomb 11 torpedo vs my Transport TF
12 bomb 7 torpedo vs my Air TF

every time i play its the same **** **** they come from me and they wipe me out like a vermine

i dont feel im setting it wrong but my planes doesn't come in group like they are doing, they seems to be very very innacurate
compare to Ai and don't always choose the best target

last thing, is it me or Jpn seems to have more thougher ship in
2.2 compare to 2.0 now i can barelly sink an AP. in 2.0 i was able to sink an AP with 1 21inch torp now i cant sink it with 2 1000lbs+
2 21inch torp




Grumbling Grogn -> (1/22/2003 12:53:37 PM)

I think it is the pilots exp myself.

Since I have started avoided major carrier battles with the IJN until I can build up my pilots exp and reach a parity level in the number of CVs I have had much, much better luck in my individual engagements.

In my current game I have been playing cat and mouse until mid August and just now decided it was time to face the IJN CVs. I waited until he had all of his commited for three days of strikes against my bases...

And then chased his arse back to Truk kicking his behind the entire way! :D :p Only got 1-2 CVs but I sank a LOT of his transports and shot down well over 100 of his CV based air crews (he is going to miss those exp. pilots in the coming months). :cool:

Just my two cents.




astharoth -> (1/22/2003 1:05:09 PM)

yeah Xp must make some kind of difference but to that point?
i am not far in my game and i wonder about the starting xp of
there pilots\ship compare to us one, one thing is sure, is that there was on there 1st mission when they hit me, mine was at there 3rd 4th mission or so




Skyfire7631 -> (1/22/2003 4:39:43 PM)

Well, I don't know. The only thing that seems really suspicious to me is subs.

Whenever I set a sub on computer control, even near a major enemy TF, it ends up doing absolutely stupid things, like going to Rabaul, or patroling in an uninteresting area.

Computer's subs, to the contrary, manage to find quite easily (or so it seems) my major TFs, and plant a torpedo in, usually, a CA (no CV hit up to now).

So, I wonder if computer subs, and my own computer-controlled subs are treated the same way ?

Regards.




Grumbling Grogn -> (1/22/2003 9:10:50 PM)

I won't claim to be the most knowledgeable about air combat I have read/heard that pilot experience makes a HUGE difference.

I know in the US there are programs where older, more experience pilots flight against/spar against younger pilots. The older pilots use older, slower aircraft yet they routinely win a vast majority of the competitions.

Many of the Japanese pilots by this stage of the war had already been inactive combat for several years (in China).

(btw, Subs on computer control are worthless IMHO. :) )




Feinder -> (1/22/2003 10:55:20 PM)

Experience can make a BIG difference. The IJN bomber crews start with an average experience of about 85-90, whereas the USN bomber crews start in the low 70s. That directly affects the number of hits you're going to score. Even 6 - 8 IJN planes that get thru your CAP are likely going to hit something. The USN pilots, with exp of around 70-75 however, are going to put alot of holes in the water before before you see a satisfying explosion on Shokaku.

There are checks and balances tho to USN vs. IJN airgroups :


Pros for IJN
1. Nothing beats IJN exp ratings at start. His fighters and bombers have excellent crews. His fighters are going to kill your planes 2 to 1 or even 3 to 1 ratios. His bombers can be lethal, as even a few as 6 bombers that make it thru CAP and Flak are likely going to hit something.

2. USN carriers start with the F4F3, and only 21 of them to boot. Historically, this was a lesson learned at Coral Sea, MORE FIGHTERS = GOOD. The F4F3s don't pair that well vs. the Zero, and the USN pilots are initially mediocre compaired the IJN exp ratings. And you've only got 21 planes in each of the squadrons, so the USN at start, is really running at 75% capacity with sub-par aircraft and mediocre pilots.

Pros for USN
1. It doesn't take that long to recieve the F4F4s (about a month for the first squadron to refit), it will seem like forever tho. But F4F4s have 2 extra 50cals, which amounts to a 50% increase in firepower. You'll notice a big difference in effectiveness over the F4F3s.
2. The USN squadrons fill out fairly quickly to 36 planes. You've got to wait for the F4F4s to replace a squadron first, but once you've got CVs with 36 fighters it helps alot. The IJN CVs only field 24 fighters (or less), so this will give you an advantage as you can put up more CAP than he can (and you'll need it because he has more bombers on his CVs and better pilots to start).
3. USN bombers seem to be generally more durable. It has been my obseration that USN bombers are morely to survive CAP and Flak and at least able to make their runs, than their IJN counterparts. Not to say they'll hit anything if their experience is low, but you can't hit anything if you never make a run.
3. RADAR. Radar helps to keep your CAP in the right place at the right time. That means that over the course of several attacks, you're less likely to have the number of your fighters reduced after several attacks due to loss of cohesion.
4. Attrition. Those IJN fighters might be knocking yours down in a 2 to 1 ratio, but this is actually working in your favor (eventually). Kill the IJN experienced pilots, and it'll just get easier. A 2 to 1 ratio against you (initially) is acceptable. 3 to 1 is too high, you're doing something wrong. Obviously, better than 2 to 1 works well too.

Ok, so I went on a tagent. But experience does make a big difference in the performance of each pilot. A fighter pilot of 85 exp in a A6M5 is (likely) going to kill the pilot in an F6F with only 60 exp. And a bomber pilot with 80+ experience is alot more likely to put his bomb on target than than one with only 60 exp.

-F-




Mr.Frag -> (1/22/2003 11:02:18 PM)

I really wonder about this question myself at times.

I play both scenario 17 and scenario 19.

I have at times had the VERY skilled pilots in 19 perform far far worse then the poorly skilled pilots in 17.

It really seems to me that the AI side gets a little bit of a skills boost, because I play both sides, and logic would dictate that reversing which side the computer plays would not impact effectiveness of the tools (airplanes/ships/flak/etc) used, as they are the same tools, yet both ways, the computer's CV pilots seem to be extra lucky ;) at landing massive blows, punching through CAP, shooting down raids, etc.

I think there has to be some modifier in effect here. (I always play on Historical skill level in all my games)




The Gnome -> (1/22/2003 11:05:24 PM)

I've noticed the AI seems to know exactly when I stand down CAP. Example:

PM has been getting creamed by bombers from Rabaul. I move in a strong fighter presence and set my CAP. The strikes stop coming. Fatigue sets in and I stand my crews down on a t-storm turn. That turn the bombers reappear. Go back to a save, set one squadron to fly and no strike comes.

This behaviour happened throught my AI game (not just in the above example) in 2.2, playing the Allies v. IJN in scenario 17.

So in answer to the original post: Yes, the AI appears to take its shots and cheat (unless there is some way for me to tell whether my opponent is flying CAP that turn).




Feinder -> (1/22/2003 11:12:43 PM)

Yes Gnome,

You're definately correct in that respect. It -definately- knows if there's CAP or LCAP on a TF or base. Convoys between Cairns and PM will get hit by Bettys/Nells at extreme range if there's nothing overhead. But if you replay the turn and put a couple of even the Worthless Wirraways overhead, he'll find something else to attack. I wouldn't mind if they attacked with the Wirraways overhead, that's what they're for. I just wish it would be consistant. It seems that (esp level bombers) check to see if there is CAP over the target, and if so, it selects a different target. It would be better if either the LB strike was forced to fight thru the CAP, or simply aborted (but at least the strike wouldn't be selecting a different target with no CAP).

-F-




Grotius -> (1/23/2003 6:49:39 AM)

Since the AI controls our (human) Naval Attack missions as well as AI Naval Attack missions, don't we also benefit when the AI "sees" that the target has CAP and finds a new target? Or does the AI confer this "retargeting benefit" only on the AI player?

Also, at the risk of hijacking this thread, am I the only one who actually finds the AI challenging? I mean, I can whup the AI if I play as the Allies, but I have my hands full as the IJN in Scenario 17. Maybe I just suck. :rolleyes: (Hey! Don't agree so fast!)




Joel Billings -> (1/23/2003 2:26:18 PM)

My understanding is that in all of the combat formulas, if you play at the historical level of difficulty there is no cheating going on for the AI (at least we didn't intend any). The AI only gets a bonus when you play on the harder settings.

As for the subs, I don't know if the mechanism that moves the subs for the computer player is different from the one that moves the human subs controlled by the computer.

As for knowing about CAP, yes the computer does know about enemy CAP and trys to evaluate it vs. friendly escorts when picking targets (for both the computer and the human player, equally). Of course if you give a specific target to an air unit, your planes will ignore the enemy CAP and try to attack the target.

We have found a bug with the way the computer was evaluating it's escorts vs. the enemy CAP (it wasn't comparing exactly what we thought it should compare) and this will be changed in a future patch. This problem impacted the computer and human players equally.

Joel




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