Convoys Clarification

Convoys Clarification (Full Version)

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Dr. Foo -> Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 12:15:24 AM)
1. If I am not using the optional rules limiting oversea supply are my units overseas in supply regardless of enemy naval units in the zone? 2. If the above is true, then do I only use convoys to move resources? 3. The number on the top left of the convoy (the convoy point) is that equal to the number of resources being transported? Such as, is a 5 convoy is transporting 5 resources? Or does the number of hexes with a resource icon play a role, say there are two resources and I have five convoys am I transporting 5, 2, or just one resource with 5 convoy points? 4. If there is only one resource in the zone am I wasting convoys if I put more than one in the zone? I assume you would want some redundancy in case one is sunk but would it be a waste to place say, 8 points in a zone with one resource. Thanks for looking and any feedback is greatly appreciated. [&o]

warspite1 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 4:19:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo 1. If I am not using the optional rules limiting oversea supply are my units overseas in supply regardless of enemy naval units in the zone? 2. If the above is true, then do I only use convoys to move resources? 3. The number on the top left of the convoy (the convoy point) is that equal to the number of resources being transported? Such as, is a 5 convoy is transporting 5 resources? Or does the number of hexes with a resource icon play a role, say there are two resources and I have five convoys am I transporting 5, 2, or just one resource with 5 convoy points? 4. If there is only one resource in the zone am I wasting convoys if I put more than one in the zone? I assume you would want some redundancy in case one is sunk but would it be a waste to place say, 8 points in a zone with one resource. Thanks for looking and any feedback is greatly appreciated. [&o] warspite1 1. 2.4.2 Tracing Supply. You cannot trace a supply path into a sea area that contains an enemy CV, SCS or aircraﬅ unit with an air-to-sea factor unless it also contains a surface naval unit or aircraﬅ unit with an air to-sea factor, controlled by any major power or minor country at war with that enemy unit. 2. Yes (unless playing the limited overseas supply) 3. You can transport one resource per convoy point. So if you have a chain of convoys from the source to the destination and each sea box has 5 convoy points, you are only transporting 2 resources if that is all that is contained in the source. Remember you can "pick-up" resources along the way if the convoy path goes past more resource sources, up to the maximum (in this case) of 5. 4. The convoy points are limited and precious (esp for CW and Japan) in a "hotspot" I would tend to keep any surplus in a nearby port rather than at sea where they risk getting sunk.

henri51 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 1:48:59 PM)
Then I presume that if you have a line of convoys of different levels (say they are all 5 and one is level 1), then the number of resources you can transport is equal to the smallest convoy in the line (one resource in this case)? If true this would imply that one should have the number of convoys in different sea zones as equal as possible, while taking into account possible redundancy (i.e. if there is only one convoy in a zone and it is destroyed, the supply line is cut).

warspite1 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 1:50:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: henri51 Then I presume that if you have a line of convoys of different levels (say they are all 5 and one is level 1), then the number of resources you can transport is equal to the smallest convoy in the line (one resource in this case)? If true this would imply that one should have the number of convoys in different sea zones as equal as possible, while taking into account possible redundancy (i.e. if there is only one convoy in a zone and it is destroyed, the supply line is cut). warspite1 Correct - in this case you have one resource being received at the destination.

Dr. Foo -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 2:39:49 PM)
Good information. Thank you warspite1.

Ingtar -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 5:47:43 PM)
One other point that I could not tell if you understood from the posts: you can right click, choose naval units, and either split or merge convoys. You are not forced to keep the starting denominations.

Dr. Foo -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 5:59:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ingtar One other point that I could not tell if you understood from the posts: you can right click, choose naval units, and either split or merge convoys. You are not forced to keep the starting denominations. Yes, I do know that CP can be split. What I'm having trouble with is making the determination of how many points are too many or too low to assign to each leg of the pipeline.

Edfactor -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 6:55:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: henri51 Then I presume that if you have a line of convoys of different levels (say they are all 5 and one is level 1), then the number of resources you can transport is equal to the smallest convoy in the line (one resource in this case)? If true this would imply that one should have the number of convoys in different sea zones as equal as possible, while taking into account possible redundancy (i.e. if there is only one convoy in a zone and it is destroyed, the supply line is cut). That depends on exactly where that 1 CP sea zone is located of course.

warspite1 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 7:05:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edfactor quote: ORIGINAL: henri51 Then I presume that if you have a line of convoys of different levels (say they are all 5 and one is level 1), then the number of resources you can transport is equal to the smallest convoy in the line (one resource in this case)? If true this would imply that one should have the number of convoys in different sea zones as equal as possible, while taking into account possible redundancy (i.e. if there is only one convoy in a zone and it is destroyed, the supply line is cut). That depends on exactly where that 1 CP sea zone is located of course. warspite1 Why is that?

Orm -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 7:15:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo quote: ORIGINAL: Ingtar One other point that I could not tell if you understood from the posts: you can right click, choose naval units, and either split or merge convoys. You are not forced to keep the starting denominations. Yes, I do know that CP can be split. What I'm having trouble with is making the determination of how many points are too many or too low to assign to each leg of the pipeline. This is a CW convoy pipeline that I made that has no extra CP out at sea. Each point is used to transport a resource or oil. [image]local://upfiles/29130/2B142460D4BE4FB084D5C56ECF94AA30.jpg[/image]

warspite1 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 7:18:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo quote: ORIGINAL: Ingtar One other point that I could not tell if you understood from the posts: you can right click, choose naval units, and either split or merge convoys. You are not forced to keep the starting denominations. Yes, I do know that CP can be split. What I'm having trouble with is making the determination of how many points are too many or too low to assign to each leg of the pipeline. This is a CW convoy pipeline that I made that has no extra CP out at sea. Each point is used to transport a resource or oil. [image]local://upfiles/29130/2B142460D4BE4FB084D5C56ECF94AA30.jpg[/image] warspite1 Orm what are the 2 CP from S.China to the Cape Basin transporting? Is it the oil from NEI? What about the Burma, Indian resources? The 5 in Gulf of Guinea - are these picking up the South African and Northern Rhodesian? If so, to which port do they go from?

Orm -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 7:53:01 PM)
Yes, the three "extra" CP in Gulf of the Guinea pick up the three CW resources in the south part of Africa. The minor ports I use is Benguella in Angola (Portugal) or Boma in Belgian Congo. The 2 CP in S China Sea transport the oil to Singapore. Or to India with help from the CP in Bay of Bengal. This depends on whether I will transport the two resources from Malaya to India or not. I transport two resources from India to UK. The Burma oil is used for reorganization or saved in Burma.

warspite1 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 8:11:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Orm Yes, the three "extra" CP in Gulf of the Guinea pick up the three CW resources in the south part of Africa. The minor ports I use is Benguella in Angola (Portugal) or Boma in Belgian Congo. The 2 CP in S China Sea transport the oil to Singapore. Or to India with help from the CP in Bay of Bengal. This depends on whether I will transport the two resources from Malaya to India or not. I transport two resources from India to UK. The Burma oil is used for reorganization or saved in Burma. warspite1 Thank-you. Ahhh! so if you save oil in Burma the only restriction on its use (for reorganisation) is that the unit(s) needs to trace a railway supply path (length not a factor)? So would be useful for an Eastern/Pacific Fleet?

Dr. Foo -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 8:21:32 PM)
Wow, I hope that one day I'll have a firm grasp on this, but right now I just wish there was an auto-convoy option or some simplified convoy rules for newbies. I'll get it, these installations really help. [&o]

warspite1 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 8:39:53 PM)
I have a French Convoy point showing as disorganised. Can it still transport Oil?

Orm -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 8:40:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Orm Yes, the three "extra" CP in Gulf of the Guinea pick up the three CW resources in the south part of Africa. The minor ports I use is Benguella in Angola (Portugal) or Boma in Belgian Congo. The 2 CP in S China Sea transport the oil to Singapore. Or to India with help from the CP in Bay of Bengal. This depends on whether I will transport the two resources from Malaya to India or not. I transport two resources from India to UK. The Burma oil is used for reorganization or saved in Burma. warspite1 Thank-you. Ahhh! so if you save oil in Burma the only restriction on its use (for reorganisation) is that the unit(s) needs to trace a railway supply path (length not a factor)? So would be useful for an Eastern/Pacific Fleet? No. It is even better than that. The Burma oil can be used to reorganize all over the world. Cut from RAC: 13.5.1 Oil .... You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length. [Clarification. Only oil in friendly territory may be used. This means that oil in Persia and Venezuela can not be used if it resides in neutral territory - Jan. 30, 1997.

Orm -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 8:43:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I have a French Convoy point showing as disorganised. Can it still transport Oil? A CP at sea should not be disorganized. But it should still be able to transport oil. But I can't think of any reason it should be disorganized.

warspite1 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 8:46:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Orm Yes, the three "extra" CP in Gulf of the Guinea pick up the three CW resources in the south part of Africa. The minor ports I use is Benguella in Angola (Portugal) or Boma in Belgian Congo. The 2 CP in S China Sea transport the oil to Singapore. Or to India with help from the CP in Bay of Bengal. This depends on whether I will transport the two resources from Malaya to India or not. I transport two resources from India to UK. The Burma oil is used for reorganization or saved in Burma. warspite1 Thank-you. Ahhh! so if you save oil in Burma the only restriction on its use (for reorganisation) is that the unit(s) needs to trace a railway supply path (length not a factor)? So would be useful for an Eastern/Pacific Fleet? No. It is even better than that. The Burma oil can be used to reorganize all over the world. Cut from RAC: 13.5.1 Oil .... You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length. [Clarification. Only oil in friendly territory may be used. This means that oil in Persia and Venezuela can not be used if it resides in neutral territory - Jan. 30, 1997. warspite1 Right - sorry I got my railway and basic mixed up. One more question on this please - if I have two fleets e.g. Med and Pacific and saved oil in Burma + Cairo. Both fleets can trace a basic supply path to both oil cities. However, only my Eastern Fleet needs reorganising. Can I ensure that the Burma oil is used for that purpose and NOT the Cairo oil - or is there no control over this aspect?

warspite1 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 8:49:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I have a French Convoy point showing as disorganised. Can it still transport Oil? A CP at sea should not be disorganized. But it should still be able to transport oil. But I can't think of any reason it should be disorganized. warspite1 There you go. I have been transporting oil from Canada to Bordeaux for ages now, and the saved oil shows in Bordeaux - but I have been able to use none of it [&:] [image]local://upfiles/28156/D9F56B73AA7842ACAB0F8B1995A4AF28.jpg[/image]

Orm -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 8:53:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I have a French Convoy point showing as disorganised. Can it still transport Oil? A CP at sea should not be disorganized. But it should still be able to transport oil. But I can't think of any reason it should be disorganized. warspite1 There you go. I have been transporting oil from Canada to Bordeaux for ages now, and the saved oil shows in Bordeaux - but I have been able to use none of it [&:] [image]local://upfiles/28156/D9F56B73AA7842ACAB0F8B1995A4AF28.jpg[/image] Have you traded the oil to France? Edit: I now can think of one reason the CP should be disorganized but it should not affect the transport capacity. [:)]

warspite1 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 8:58:45 PM)
Yes - see below [image]local://upfiles/28156/74F2F48ECAD94546B5CB987E51C1D360.jpg[/image]

warspite1 -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 9:01:31 PM)
And there is the oil saved on map and in the PP [image]local://upfiles/28156/59F3E3383BCE4970BD74DCD9E50BEA88.jpg[/image]

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 9:53:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I have a French Convoy point showing as disorganised. Can it still transport Oil? A CP at sea should not be disorganized. But it should still be able to transport oil. But I can't think of any reason it should be disorganized. How about if it started its move in port out-of-supply?

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 9:56:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Orm Yes, the three "extra" CP in Gulf of the Guinea pick up the three CW resources in the south part of Africa. The minor ports I use is Benguella in Angola (Portugal) or Boma in Belgian Congo. The 2 CP in S China Sea transport the oil to Singapore. Or to India with help from the CP in Bay of Bengal. This depends on whether I will transport the two resources from Malaya to India or not. I transport two resources from India to UK. The Burma oil is used for reorganization or saved in Burma. warspite1 Thank-you. Ahhh! so if you save oil in Burma the only restriction on its use (for reorganisation) is that the unit(s) needs to trace a railway supply path (length not a factor)? So would be useful for an Eastern/Pacific Fleet? No. It is even better than that. The Burma oil can be used to reorganize all over the world. Cut from RAC: 13.5.1 Oil .... You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length. [Clarification. Only oil in friendly territory may be used. This means that oil in Persia and Venezuela can not be used if it resides in neutral territory - Jan. 30, 1997. warspite1 Right - sorry I got my railway and basic mixed up. One more question on this please - if I have two fleets e.g. Med and Pacific and saved oil in Burma + Cairo. Both fleets can trace a basic supply path to both oil cities. However, only my Eastern Fleet needs reorganising. Can I ensure that the Burma oil is used for that purpose and NOT the Cairo oil - or is there no control over this aspect? The use oil form will list all the units that need to be reorganized on the left and all the oil 'sources' on the right. You select an oil source and then reorganize which ever units you want from the list on the left. The Players Manual has examples of this and describes what all the buttons are for.

brian brian -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/17/2013 10:23:05 PM)
To reorganize a unit that requires oil (with the Oil Rule in play), the unit has to trace to an oil resource AND a primary supply source. So it's fairly counter-intuitive in that, for the USA for example, it doesn't gain you anything to store oil right at Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor is either in supply communication with a USA primary supply source on the mainland, or it isn't. So you might as well only save oil in the same countries that have primary supply sources for your units.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/18/2013 12:14:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brian brian To reorganize a unit that requires oil (with the Oil Rule in play), the unit has to trace to an oil resource AND a primary supply source. So it's fairly counter-intuitive in that, for the USA for example, it doesn't gain you anything to store oil right at Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor is either in supply communication with a USA primary supply source on the mainland, or it isn't. So you might as well only save oil in the same countries that have primary supply sources for your units. Not true.

brian brian -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/18/2013 12:36:23 AM)
could you expand on that Steve? I am thinking only of the Final Reorganization phase. A unit can trace through secondary sources to trace to a primary of course. I'm not sure what you are thinking there. Some day I'll learn to play this game. Perhaps I am just used to always playing with the Limited Isolated Re-Organization option turned on. We started using that as a House Rule even in 4th edition. [That optional rule requires being able to trace a supply path of any length to re-organize at the end of the turn.] You can reorganize during a turn via Re-org points from HQ, ATR, at-sea TRS/AMPH, or HQs with an Offensive Chit, but at that point you don't trace to Oil or even a supply source to do that.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/18/2013 2:06:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brian brian could you expand on that Steve? I am thinking only of the Final Reorganization phase. A unit can trace through secondary sources to trace to a primary of course. I'm not sure what you are thinking there. Some day I'll learn to play this game. Perhaps I am just used to always playing with the Limited Isolated Re-Organization option turned on. We started using that as a House Rule even in 4th edition. [That optional rule requires being able to trace a supply path of any length to re-organize at the end of the turn.] You can reorganize during a turn via Re-org points from HQ, ATR, at-sea TRS/AMPH, or HQs with an Offensive Chit, but at that point you don't trace to Oil or even a supply source to do that. With Isolation turned on (an optional rule) then a non-HQ unit would need to trace to a primary supply source. But that could be an HQ that was a primary supply source for the turn (by burning a Supply Unit). In the Use Oil phase, the HQ would then be listed as an oil point resource, even if the non-HQ unit were isolated from primary supply sources in its home country. So the non-HQ would be able to be reorganized even if it needed oil to reorganize. I'm probably being picky here but having written the code for all of those combinations and permutations, I prefer to be precise. I'm very leery of generalizations about WIF rules anyway, and the oil rules in particular. EDIT: For an example, consider a disorganized German armor unit in the United Kingdom next to an HQ which just used a Supply Unit to become a primary supply source for the turn.

brian brian -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/18/2013 3:23:23 AM)
ahh, thanks. No Isolated Re-Org is a rule I have never ever played without, not used to the concept of not having it. I did waste a part of a game setting up extra convoys to move US Oil to Pearl Harbor once though. Seemed like the thing to do....but it wasn't, since we were playing with No Isolated Re-Org. Not that handy with Supply Units either.

Dr. Foo -> RE: Convoys Clarification (11/19/2013 12:24:45 AM)
When setting up convoys, if there are resources to ship, will the game automatically place them into the pipeline or do I need manually do that in Production Planning?

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