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graf spee -> rules reference needed (11/20/2013 2:21:30 PM)

Hi,
I'm looking for a rule reference (RAW or RAC) for a few things in the players manual vol 1.

1)p.27 about ground support missions
"For each quantity of tactical factors equal to the enemy defensive combat factors you add the same bonus that a ground strike would have achieved bij disorganizing the unit."???


2)p31 about reorganizing
"fighters are cheaper to reorganize than other air units"???

Thanks



Centuur -> RE: rules reference needed (11/20/2013 2:35:11 PM)

1. Is best answered with an example, since this is in reality a combination of a couple of rules (ground strike, ground support and land combat resolution)

Ex.: If the defending clear hex has 5 combat factors and you have a 5 factor Stuka available, you get an extra odds shift if you use it for ground support in a land combat. If you use it for ground strike, you've got 50% chanche to disorganised the enemy unit, which gives a bonus in land combat equal to an odds shift. If you want to attack the hex anyhow, using the plane for ground strike isn't good play in this case...

2. This has to do with the using of oil (when playing with this rule). Planes which are build in 2 turns only cost 0,1 oil to reorganise, other planes costs double. See the form under "Help, Unit costs and characteristics").




jhdeerslayer -> RE: rules reference needed (11/20/2013 2:53:39 PM)

For # 2 - I found a reference where fighters cost half the reorg cost as compared to bombers. I find using "Find" helpful in the Adobe manuals for these things. I thought there was a "reorg" cost chart too somewhere but can't find it right now.



Extraneous -> RE: rules reference needed (11/20/2013 3:47:55 PM)

From the RAW

11.18.4 Reorganizing
You can only reorganize a unit that started the step face-down. This means you can’t reorganize an ATR that flew an air supply mission in this step.

It costs 1 reorganization point to reorganize a land unit in a land action, an aircraft unit in an air action, or a naval unit in a naval action. In all other cases it costs 2 points to reorganize each unit.



jhdeerslayer -> RE: rules reference needed (11/20/2013 4:04:26 PM)

Players Manual Vol 1, Section 3.4.2.3

Reorganize fighters

Reorganization was discussed earlier in this section. Seriously consider reorganizing your best fighters, as because fighters are cheaper to reorganize that other air units (you reorganize two fighters for the same reorganization cost as a single multi-engine bomber), and fighters are crucial.



paulderynck -> RE: rules reference needed (11/20/2013 4:31:06 PM)

There is an option called variable reorganization that makes some bombers cost double the reorganization points compared to normal. That is in the (11.18.4) Reorganization step following land combat.

Fighters normally cost the same to re-org as other aircraft in this step.

The reference to half cost is for oil consumption during end of turn reorganization. Not all fighters are half cost, only the ones that cost 2 build points to build (assuming you're playing with pilots - 4 otherwise).



jhdeerslayer -> RE: rules reference needed (11/20/2013 4:32:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

There is an option called variable reorganization that makes some bombers cost double the reorganization points compared to normal. That is in the (11.18.4) Reorganization step following land combat.

Fighters normally cost the same to re-org as other aircraft in this step.

The reference to half cost is for oil consumption during end of turn reorganization. Not all fighters are half cost, only the ones that cost 2 build points to build (assuming you're playing with pilots - 4 otherwise).


Thanks Paul - one has to be careful!



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: rules reference needed (11/20/2013 5:41:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: graf spee

Hi,
I'm looking for a rule reference (RAW or RAC) for a few things in the players manual vol 1.

1)p.27 about ground support missions
"For each quantity of tactical factors equal to the enemy defensive combat factors you add the same bonus that a ground strike would have achieved bij disorganizing the unit."???


2)p31 about reorganizing
"fighters are cheaper to reorganize than other air units"???

Thanks


The Reorganize Units section of the Players Manual (volume 2, 8.7.2.43) has several paragraphs extracted/paraphrased from RAC. Most of the 8.7.2 sections begin with Background from Rules as Coded. Within those opening paragraphs are many cross references to sections in RAC. For example, in 8.7.2.43 there are references to RAC 9.4.13, 22.4.2, 9.4.12, and 9.2.20.

The 8.7.2 sections are about the forms used to make decisions. I made a serious attempt to have those sections centralize the information/rules about each form's decision. Usually you only need to read the section to understand what the rules are. But in some cases you might want to read what RAC itself says, hence the references.

Make life easy for yourself, start with the Players Manual when you have a question. My purpose in writing it was to save players from the trouble of having to search through RAC to find all the rules related to a decision (or topic).



Dabrion -> RE: rules reference needed (11/20/2013 8:32:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: graf spee
1)p.27 about ground support missions
"For each quantity of tactical factors equal to the enemy defensive combat factors you add the same bonus that a ground strike would have achieved bij disorganizing the unit."???


RAW 11.16.4 (second paragraph of the "Support" section):
"You ignore any tactical factors (after modification) flown by the
attacking side that exceed the total (modified) combat factors of the
attacking land units. Similarly, you ignore any (modified) tactical
factors on the defending side that exceed the total (modified) combat
factors of the defending land units."

This is a meta principle that also applies to shore bombardment (though independently, so you can support with GS and SB each up to the modified strength of the units, tripling effectiveness of the units involved)

quote:

ORIGINAL: graf spee
2)p31 about reorganizing
"fighters are cheaper to reorganize than other air units"???


This seems interpreted in conjunction with other rules as there is no such basic rule. (side note: I dont play with the AfA option 14 oil rule or Option 36/45). Probably refers to the oil cost as per the unit chart. But then it rather applies to 2-turn aircraft (so LND2/NAV2 as well, go Stuka go!)

P.S.:
Just read both passages in Players Manual Vol. 1, p27 & p31. Frankly, they dont make much sense to me at all.. But I read them out of context and dont know what rule/optional set they apply to. Seemingly it is 1D10 CRT and AfA Oil.. both are outdated and irrelevant concepts (noone plays them anymore). I would advise you not to play either; wait for another oil rule implementation (2008 Annual and its incarnations); always play divisions+2D10.



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