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Schnaufer -> Resources (11/22/2013 9:22:18 AM)
Unless the Axis can grab lots of resources and oil is the game just a pain in the butt for them ? Looking at the chart in Vol. 1, even if the Axis conquers Russia, unless the US can be kept out of the war it will be very hard to win a battle of attrition ? Thanks for the help. Have a good one all [:)]

Admiral Delabroglio -> RE: Resources (11/22/2013 10:00:51 AM)
The allies have more resources, indeed. However, most of the time, Germany can conquer the NL, Belgium, France. Also, the Euro Axis can either conquer Spain, take Gibraltar and make the CW fight for Suez shipping reinforcements the long way, or occupy some of Russian Europe. If lucky or skilled and fast, it can do both. Japan can grab one or two(?) extra Chinese resources, the Burma oil, the Malayan resources and the NEI oil. If things go ill for the CW, Japan can even conquer Australia + New Caledonia, or India. The USA and Russia can come back, but they are racing against time. If the Axis manages to delay them enough, the axis will win. So, the Axis has two to two and a half years to grab a place in the sun and establish a defensive perimeter. Then, make the allies pay for every hex. A battle of attrition is a slow process. Same for Japan. If Japan manages to fight air naval battle in US invasion targets, Japan can destroy or damage US transport or amphibious ships and delay the US. The US out produces every axis country (perhaps not all of them together) but requires time to bring those build points to battle. Best regards

Centuur -> RE: Resources (11/22/2013 11:59:29 AM)
And don't forget: the Axis don't have to conquer the world. They have to survive with a couple of victory cities under there control at the end of J/A 1945 game turn...

Extraneous -> RE: Resources (11/22/2013 12:12:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Centuur And don't forget: the Axis don't have to conquer the world. They have to survive with a couple of victory cities under there control at the end of J/A 1945 game turn... Or during the Peace Step win an Automatic Victory.

Centuur -> RE: Resources (11/22/2013 12:19:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Extraneous quote: ORIGINAL: Centuur And don't forget: the Axis don't have to conquer the world. They have to survive with a couple of victory cities under there control at the end of J/A 1945 game turn... Or during the Peace Step win an Automatic Victory. I've never seen that one in a game happening...

Redan -> RE: Resources (11/22/2013 12:48:01 PM)
This is a game. Every single WW2 game is loaded heavily in favor of the Axis. I don't remember ever seeing one that had, say, any optional rules favoring France. Maybe allowing them to freely enter Belgium. All the games assume that by taking Indonesia the Japanese had oil...They didn't..Had to fill up in Brumei because the oil straight out of the ground was high enough grade to pump straight into the ships. The Dutch did a pretty good job blowing up refineries in advance of the invasion. Japan against US was like California at War with rest of US, and the rest of the US had a duplicate California. (where did I read that?) Games have to be rigged a lot of times. I measn, the krauts never took Moscow or Leningrad, did they? Or Suez... Japan did not seize much of India, or Ceylon, or Madagascar...or Australia. Six months into the War they were pretty much doomed at Midway. Had no system to replace pilots... Army & Navy didn't speak to each other... Game balance is why there are so many pro axis junk options. Sea Lion? I think not.

Numdydar -> RE: Resources (11/22/2013 3:50:57 PM)
I agree some games are geared toward the Axis, but the majority I would say are not specificly giving the Axis any advantages, but we, the players, are using hindsight to use the resources of the Axis more efficiently. Since the Axis has designed things for a war while the Allies had not, with our hindsight the Axis has major advantages that the historical counterparts did not. Like no need to wait for spring weather to attack the lowlands or France as an example. Obviously, Redan has not played WitP AE [:)] since he stated that '...ALL the games assume by taking Indonesia the Japanese had oil.' In Ae you will get oil for taking the DEI, but it normally takes a LONG time to repair the wells and lots of supplies need to be shipped in to do it that are needed for other things, like running a war [:D]. So i can assure that ALL games are not as Radan states as I am pretty sure they have not played every WWII game out there [:)] Sorry Radan, I do not mean to pick on you but saying ALL games do a certain thing when I know for a fact not all of them do not, I had to respond.

henri51 -> RE: Resources (11/22/2013 6:40:04 PM)
quote: Sorry Radan, I do not mean to pick on you but saying ALL games do a certain thing when I know for a fact not all of them do not, I had to respond. Yeah, and Age of Dragons does not favor the Axis either [:D] Henri

Numdydar -> RE: Resources (11/22/2013 11:25:23 PM)
Somehow I do not think Age of Dragons is the type of war game he was refering to [:)]

Redan -> RE: Resources (11/22/2013 11:40:11 PM)
I agree with you. Numdydar. I was just exaggerating to make a point. I have played AE a lot, but never played the Japanese. Maybe I should have said all WW2 games CAN be loaded heavily in favor of the Axis.

sunlit uplands -> RE: Resources (11/22/2013 11:53:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Redan This is a game. Every single WW2 game is loaded heavily in favor of the Axis. I don't remember ever seeing one that had, say, any optional rules favoring France. Maybe allowing them to freely enter Belgium. Even if France had setup defensive positions in Belgium, I think the Wermacht would have still steamrolled them.

Numdydar -> RE: Resources (11/23/2013 2:16:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Redan I agree with you. Numdydar. I was just exaggerating to make a point. I have played AE a lot, but never played the Japanese. Maybe I should have said all WW2 games CAN be loaded heavily in favor of the Axis. Unfortunately, it can be hard to determine if the game system itself is biased or if our hindsight is the issue. German generals at the time had no idea if the attack on France would work or not. But since we know how weak France is, we can rush in, even in bad weather to get the additional resources for the rest of the war. Plus go into the Balkans, etc. So it is a chicken and egg situation [:)]

Centuur -> RE: Resources (11/23/2013 9:11:10 AM)
Now, I don't know if you have been paying attention with regards to the AAR's which have been made, but I can tell you that France isn't a walk over at all. Sure, it will fall, but be prepared to get losses with the Germans. No wrong setup of units here, as was done in WWII when the French put a lot of units in and behind the Maginot line. No sir. If you don't get a long SO 1939 turn with good weather, you are in for a tough fight.

Orm -> RE: Resources (11/23/2013 9:51:57 AM)
I've seen several games where France held out until US entered the war and Axis surrendered without ever taking out France. France surviving 1940 is not all that uncommon. And Germany often needs to spend two offensive chits to get to Paris.

jesperpehrson -> RE: Resources (11/23/2013 10:53:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunlit.uplands quote: ORIGINAL: Redan This is a game. Every single WW2 game is loaded heavily in favor of the Axis. I don't remember ever seeing one that had, say, any optional rules favoring France. Maybe allowing them to freely enter Belgium. Even if France had setup defensive positions in Belgium, I think the Wermacht would have still steamrolled them. Actually if you play WIF with the Leaders in Flames expansion you can try it out. One of the french leaders let you stack a full stack in a neutral countrys capital. That makes the Dyle-line pretty darned defensible. I have seen it once and it made the conquest of France a living hell for the German. They did in the end I think but it took a tree-pronged attack over the alps, the Maginot and the Dyle.

Greyshaft -> RE: Resources (11/23/2013 6:21:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: capitan ... it took a tree-pronged attack over the alps, the Maginot and the Dyle. "tree-pronged attack" = visions of hordes of German infantry marching westward armed with sharpened sticks [:D]

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Resources (11/23/2013 7:12:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greyshaft quote: ORIGINAL: capitan ... it took a tree-pronged attack over the alps, the Maginot and the Dyle. "tree-pronged attack" = visions of hordes of German infantry marching westward armed with sharpened sticks [:D] Isn't that how MacBeth was defeated?

alexvand -> RE: Resources (11/23/2013 8:20:47 PM)
Going back to the OP. I think your definition of "win" doesn't quite fit this game. In this game the Axis will be defeated. That's a given. (Except very rare wild swings of luck or outright incompetence on the Allies part.) The key question of the game for the Axis is this: Can you do better than the Axis historically did? This is measured by control of objective hexes. If you control more objectives than the Axis did historically at the end of game time, then you win. The massive economic engine that is the USA will eventually swamp the Axis. It just remains to be seen how long it takes.

Zorachus99 -> RE: Resources (11/23/2013 10:04:24 PM)
I'm not sure I completely agree. If the USSR is knocked out of the game, a huge force-pool exits the map. I'd be rather uncertain of the fate of the game. I've only played into 1945 a few times, but in one game Me-262's were flying convoy protection in the Sea of Japan, desperately trying to save the Japanese, to no avail. I should have taken a picture of the 12-5 SS with Rundstedt army group in China relieving the Japanese units to return to the home country, all in a desperate attempt to stave off the American Navy & Marines. Epic.

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