A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (Full Version)

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wodin -> A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/22/2013 6:08:21 PM)

I seem to always agree with Tim whether it be a a review or his thoughts generally on the Wargaming scene.. here is his message to Slitherine and demo's.



http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/the-flare-path-hurls-demo-charges/#more-177311



Aurelian -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/22/2013 9:54:56 PM)

If he was that astute, he would understand why they don't do demos.

But instead, he'd rather complain.



Boomer78 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/22/2013 10:05:03 PM)

I agree with some of the sentiment about demos, but I wonder why RPS decided to make a case against Matrix/Slitherine. It's not like any major distributor does demos any more. The last demo from a major dist. I remember playing was for the first Crysis, way back in like '08 or something.

I do miss demos. I also miss non-DRM gaming, single player focused campaigns, and RPGs that actually put thought into their stories. Demos would be only the 297th thing I've become cynical about in the gaming industry... and certainly, taking specific issue with Matrix seems a little petulant and heavy handed. But coming from the RPS beta males, should we expect anything else?



Ranger33 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/22/2013 10:12:02 PM)

I know Matrix has their reasons, but as a consumer I would appreciate demos for everything. I know that I wouldn't have bought back into the Combat Mission series after the awful CMSF release if they had not put out an updated demo with missions from all the modules. I picked up the modules and everything else in the series since then based on that single demo experience.



awbergs -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/22/2013 11:03:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Boomer78

I agree with some of the sentiment about demos, but I wonder why RPS decided to make a case against Matrix/Slitherine. It's not like any major distributor does demos any more. The last demo from a major dist. I remember playing was for the first Crysis, way back in like '08 or something.

I do miss demos. I also miss non-DRM gaming, single player focused campaigns, and RPGs that actually put thought into their stories. Demos would be only the 297th thing I've become cynical about in the gaming industry... and certainly, taking specific issue with Matrix seems a little petulant and heavy handed. But coming from the RPS beta males, should we expect anything else?


Tim Stone primarily writes about sims and wargames at RPS, and since as Matrix/Slitherine (edit: and others, I would assume) insist wargames are a niche market, he approached the issue on those terms by limiting the discussion to some of the other well-known names in niche strategy and wargaming. The question of demos is also a frequent one with Matrix/Slitherine. Tim did interviews with the other developers to get their thoughts, then compared them to public comments from Matrix/Slitherine.

To me it just seems like decent journalism, though of course I can see where you're coming from with your feeling that Matrix/Slitherine is being singled out -- the opinions of the other developers have certainly done that.

I buy games from Matrix/Slitherine and enjoy them, mostly, but I've been careful about what I buy. There are plenty of games though that I won't buy without playing a demo because of the price point. So, there's more money that they could mine from me if demos were available for specific games here.

I'm guessing if it really is a prohibitive cost to produce a demo, Matrix/Slitherine games are just that different in the code somehow. I suppose I can only give them the benefit of the doubt. I work in software and have my own understanding of it, but I don't work for Matrix/Slitherine, so I can't know.

I assume "beta males" is an insult directed at the RPS writers? Or is it the community at large? Maybe just Tim Stone? Was there something specific about the article that prompted that? What do you mean by a "beta male"?

I also didn't really pick up on a petulant tone, but again, opinions differ.



Alchenar -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/22/2013 11:18:46 PM)

I think the main difference (as Tim notes in the article) is that other publishers have gone for other routes in addressing the access problem for games: ie. we don't get demos as often as we used to, but in exchange I get to see a 50% sale after a couple of months and likely a 75% sale not long after that. If I don't want to buy a AAA game at full price then I'll get offered it at a rate later that makes it an acceptable gamble later on.

Tim's point is that if you don't want to go down that route then the only thing really left for you is to provide a demo, and that article is a pretty comprehensive demolition of the arguments against making one.



Boomer78 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 12:33:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: awbergs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Boomer78

I agree with some of the sentiment about demos, but I wonder why RPS decided to make a case against Matrix/Slitherine. It's not like any major distributor does demos any more. The last demo from a major dist. I remember playing was for the first Crysis, way back in like '08 or something.

I do miss demos. I also miss non-DRM gaming, single player focused campaigns, and RPGs that actually put thought into their stories. Demos would be only the 297th thing I've become cynical about in the gaming industry... and certainly, taking specific issue with Matrix seems a little petulant and heavy handed. But coming from the RPS beta males, should we expect anything else?


Tim Stone primarily writes about sims and wargames at RPS, and since as Matrix/Slitherine (edit: and others, I would assume) insist wargames are a niche market, he approached the issue on those terms by limiting the discussion to some of the other well-known names in niche strategy and wargaming. The question of demos is also a frequent one with Matrix/Slitherine. Tim did interviews with the other developers to get their thoughts, then compared them to public comments from Matrix/Slitherine.

To me it just seems like decent journalism, though of course I can see where you're coming from with your feeling that Matrix/Slitherine is being singled out -- the opinions of the other developers have certainly done that.

I buy games from Matrix/Slitherine and enjoy them, mostly, but I've been careful about what I buy. There are plenty of games though that I won't buy without playing a demo because of the price point. So, there's more money that they could mine from me if demos were available for specific games here.

I'm guessing if it really is a prohibitive cost to produce a demo, Matrix/Slitherine games are just that different in the code somehow. I suppose I can only give them the benefit of the doubt. I work in software and have my own understanding of it, but I don't work for Matrix/Slitherine, so I can't know.

I assume "beta males" is an insult directed at the RPS writers? Or is it the community at large? Maybe just Tim Stone? Was there something specific about the article that prompted that? What do you mean by a "beta male"?

I also didn't really pick up on a petulant tone, but again, opinions differ.


RPS does material I sometimes agree with, but their contradictions and moral grandstanding is more than I can bare most of the time. The recent pieces they've done on sexism in the gaming industry has really smacked of hypocrisy. Not only do they condone and promote the same kind of 'meathead' boy toy gaming, they also don't have a lot of leverage when it comes to proselytizing about social issues.

They preview, review, and enjoy the hell out of wargames and shooters, then turn around and try to brow beat gamers into thinking they're homicidal misogynists for playing Call of Duty or Mortal Kombat. Their writers are constantly taking politically correct stances on issues... I guess solely for the purpose of being with the PC 'in crowd.' So I suppose boobs and bullets are ok, so long as you're an academic blogger or game reviewer, but if you just enjoy those type of games for the adrenaline rush as a regular ole' gamer, you must be some sort of sexist dinosaur from a bygone age in need of social re-education.

If you want more specifics, I'll grab some links for ya and we can dig deeper into it.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 1:59:28 AM)

The p.c. crowd are the perpetually offended. So when you hear about those 'offended', on any subject, it's always the same people. Always. Almost to the last, they're not against any kind of 'ism', they just prefer it directed at those not in their fold.

No one guaranteed you, or anyone else including me, a life free of offensiveness.

Sexism in video games? I didn't know rps went that route. That crowd won't be happy until every video game protagonist are skinny jean wearing, purse wielding, metrosexual males and the asexual heroine who comes to his rescue.



Boomer78 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 5:19:10 AM)

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09/19/to-boycott-pax-or-not-to-boycott-pax/

^ That's what really kicked off the controversy a few months ago. RPS has done several articles on racism and sexism in gaming, but when they decided to Jesus Christ themselves, it blew up in their faces.

RPS decided to take their leftist campus crusade and actually boycott PAX because of their much maligned stance on sexism in the gaming industry. It's too much. They've taken issue with one of the fundamental elements to an entire market. Many different people have tried to bring gaming around to women, and it has almost always failed. Girls just don't play games in the numbers that guys do. Game studios know this, so they try and reach their market with what their demographic wants, and what boys want is boobs and guns. They don't really want touchy feely family crisis games like Gone Home. And yet, time after time, these sort of social issues are shoved down their throats, because the soft plushy writers at RPS feel it's important enough to make a stand on.

To me this is just a modern digital version of the SDS. You take an ideology, morph it into a marketable movement, and thrust it deep into the public forum, smashing through convention, reason, and make conflict where no conflict existed before... and not truly for any kind of egalitarian mission, but often... like so many human endeavors, for self interest and political ambition.

And it makes me want to puke.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 5:59:33 AM)

Lol. Look at the comments. All the fellow travelers are all falling over themselves to be the most tolerant of the ever moving target. The only thing they are intolerant of is anybody that doesn't completely agree with them.

The comments barely get to the third post before Joan er John Funk starts on the oh so trendy 'straight white male' bit. Poor Joan. She's so upset because dad got him a football instead of the bedazzled encrusted purse he wanted.

The perpetually offended. lol.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/re-that-heroes-of-the-storm-interview/





ComradeP -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 7:05:47 AM)

I don't really mind the lack of a demo, although I'm still convinced they increase with sales and don't buy the argument that they're difficult to design for wargames with lower levels of complexity, I do see the point that the combination of no demo and maintaining a high price can mean fewer people will buy wargames. To me, that has always been the primary difference between Matrix and other publishers: until the weekly deals were introduced very recently, Matrix didn't lower prices.

I don't mind paying full price for wargames, but I can certainly see the point that people don't feel like paying full price for a wargame from the early 2000's.



gradenko2k -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 7:20:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
If he was that astute, he would understand why they don't do demos.

But instead, he'd rather complain.


Did you even read the article? He specifically addresses each point of "demos aren't worth it because ...".

And yeah, maybe demos wouldn't be necessary if a consumer wouldn't have to blow upwards of 40 dollars on a game sight unseen (and no amount of LP/manual preview/AAR is going to take the place of actually driving the game), but it's pretty clear that Matrix/Slitherine isn't going down that particular route either.



Zap -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 7:31:28 AM)

You tube Demos are what Matrix are using now if I'm not mistaken. I have found out what I need to know about a new release through those



Aurelian -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 7:53:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
If he was that astute, he would understand why they don't do demos.

But instead, he'd rather complain.


Did you even read the article? He specifically addresses each point of "demos aren't worth it because ...".

And yeah, maybe demos wouldn't be necessary if a consumer wouldn't have to blow upwards of 40 dollars on a game sight unseen (and no amount of LP/manual preview/AAR is going to take the place of actually driving the game), but it's pretty clear that Matrix/Slitherine isn't going down that particular route either.


I read enough. When he has walks the walk, (how many games has he published again?), I'll listen. But I'm not going to listen much to someone who, for example, whines about the price of a game that just came out.

If it isn't demos, it's price. Not interested on his opinions on either.



aaatoysandmore -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 8:02:42 AM)

To me and for me demos sometimes open the door for enough of the game that I don't need or want the full product. Like for instance the Doom series games demos. Just one lil chapter is enough for me. I think it was Battlefront that put out a demo for Global Conflict Gold and let me play a pretty long time, which was enough time to make me not want to buy the full version. So I think in some cases demos are detrimental to sales of the full game and in other cases (like some of you guys) good for sales. It's one of those catch 22 type things.....damned if you do and damned if you don't.....you can't win for losing. Basically I've got a drawer full of demos I never play. They were fun at the time but not worth the purchase of the whole game.



Boomer78 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 8:12:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Lol. Look at the comments. All the fellow travelers are all falling over themselves to be the most tolerant of the ever moving target. The only thing they are intolerant of is anybody that doesn't completely agree with them.

The comments barely get to the third post before Joan er John Funk starts on the oh so trendy 'straight white male' bit. Poor Joan. She's so upset because dad got him a football instead of the bedazzled encrusted purse he wanted.

The perpetually offended. lol.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/re-that-heroes-of-the-storm-interview/





Dear lord. I got about halfway through the comments and my head went dizzy and I had to go lie down for while.

And that's why I have to take gaming journalist sites with a huge grain of salt. When they play and review games, I listen. When they decide to sit down on Oprah's couch and belch out a bunch of rhetorical nonsense, usually just for the purpose of having something else to write about... I check out.



gradenko2k -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 8:39:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
I read enough. When he has walks the walk, (how many games has he published again?), I'll listen.

You might be surprised to find out that critiquing something does not, in fact, require that you yourself have done said thing as a prerequisite.



Alchenar -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 9:35:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
I read enough. When he has walks the walk, (how many games has he published again?), I'll listen.

You might be surprised to find out that critiquing something does not, in fact, require that you yourself have done said thing as a prerequisite.


Mate, he's already stated that he isn't going to engage with what Tim wrote, and for the same reasons he isn't going to engage with what you wrote. It's not worth trying to have an adult conversation with him.



z1812 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 12:02:35 PM)

Without commenting on how Demos effect the gaming business generally, I can say that for me they make a positive difference. Matrix has lost potential sales to me because most often they don't offer them.




vonRocko -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 1:20:03 PM)

I can only speak for myself, but Matrix/slitherine have lost more than a few sales with me because they have no demo to try, but they know best.[&:]



warspite1 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 1:31:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

I can only speak for myself, but Matrix/slitherine have lost more than a few sales with me because they have no demo to try, but they know best.[&:]
warspite1

I bet any money they have also benefited from sales that would not have happened if a demo was available too - so its swings and roundabouts. I certainly have a couple I can name...



wworld7 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 1:37:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Without commenting on how Demos effect the gaming business generally, I can say that for me they make a positive
difference. Matrix has lost potential sales to me because most often they don't offer them.



Matrix (or any publisher) that doesn't create a demo KNOWS some sales are lost as a result. Assuming creating one is
possible a critical (but NOT only) issue comes down to "Is the return on investment (ROI) worth it to create one?".

It is not one size fits all.

Yet, this topic keeps coming up over and over again because some people don't like the facts of this situation.



Jakse -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 2:42:02 PM)

To be on the topic of demos and not whining about women and minorities having opinions, I bought Command Ops due to: a sale and a demo. Just saying.



z1812 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 2:42:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Without commenting on how Demos effect the gaming business generally, I can say that for me they make a positive
difference. Matrix has lost potential sales to me because most often they don't offer them.



Matrix (or any publisher) that doesn't create a demo KNOWS some sales are lost as a result. Assuming creating one is
possible a critical (but NOT only) issue comes down to "Is the return on investment (ROI) worth it to create one?".

It is not one size fits all.

Yet, this topic keeps coming up over and over again because some people don't like the facts of this situation.


Yes, and we can all decide how we spend our dollars.



warspite1 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 2:45:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Without commenting on how Demos effect the gaming business generally, I can say that for me they make a positive
difference. Matrix has lost potential sales to me because most often they don't offer them.



Matrix (or any publisher) that doesn't create a demo KNOWS some sales are lost as a result. Assuming creating one is
possible a critical (but NOT only) issue comes down to "Is the return on investment (ROI) worth it to create one?".

It is not one size fits all.

Yet, this topic keeps coming up over and over again because some people don't like the facts of this situation.


Yes, and we can all decide how we spend our dollars.

warspite1

And the Queen's GBP Sterling [;)]



DSWargamer -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 3:52:44 PM)

It's interesting, considering all the talk of how there are no demos, just how many demos I can find.

Battle Academy, has a demo.
Panzer Corps has a demo.
Conflict of Heroes has a demo.
Unity of Command has a demo.

These are all very definitely wargames, and each one was substantially different from the other in design too.

I gave up after briefly confirming I wasn't imagining it. Yep, they are all demos.

Why is it, people persist in claiming Slitherine Group has no does no demos?

Some games might not have a demo. But to just state matter of factly that there are none, is factually wrong.



Perturabo -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 5:03:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Without commenting on how Demos effect the gaming business generally, I can say that for me they make a positive difference. Matrix has lost potential sales to me because most often they don't offer them.

Same here. And I started wargaming with demo disks. Ok. Not really, I started wargaming with cassette rips on C64. But taking in account that they were poor rips with one mission only, there wasn't much difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

I can only speak for myself, but Matrix/slitherine have lost more than a few sales with me because they have no demo to try, but they know best.[&:]
warspite1

I bet any money they have also benefited from sales that would not have happened if a demo was available too - so its swings and roundabouts. I certainly have a couple I can name...

Wouldn't bad purchases resulting from lack of demos result in lower trust towards the publisher and thus later decreased sales? Or maybe man isn't a learning animal?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Lol. Look at the comments. All the fellow travelers are all falling over themselves to be the most tolerant of the ever moving target. The only thing they are intolerant of is anybody that doesn't completely agree with them.

The comments barely get to the third post before Joan er John Funk starts on the oh so trendy 'straight white male' bit. Poor Joan. She's so upset because dad got him a football instead of the bedazzled encrusted purse he wanted.

The perpetually offended. lol.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/re-that-heroes-of-the-storm-interview/

Disdain for ridiculous armour comes from fellow realismfags. Though I have no idea why they gang up on these grotesque low-brow MMO games instead of buying and playing noble and monocled wargames.

One thing that I find interesting that they are meaning the really sinister and manipulative stuff that goes on with these games. All sexual teasing and fetishism isn't to keep women down but to make gamers addicted to these game. I knew one guy that was working on a MMO game and quit when they told him to browse psychological textbooks for fetishes so that the game would be more addictive.

Judging by what he wrote later, John Funk is a straight white male himself. Just because he is one, it doesn't mean that he can't be upset when other people are treated as worse than him.

By the way, butch soldiers are something rather new that came with hormone-filled chickens and steroids. When I look at WWI/WWII photos, most of soldiers seem to be skinny metro-sexual guys. And most of them came from farmer/physical worker background. Real females in military/police also aren't clothed like strippers when on duty. Again, it's a question of realism versus unrealism.
On the other hand, it annoys me when they insist that female characters shouldn't have lower physical stats than male ones. Though taking in account what kind of games they play, the inaccurate gender equality is the smallest problem or taking in account the premise of these games not a problem at all - just as the sexually aggressive female characters.

Another thing that I find problematic about RPS is stuff like this:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09/05/hotline-miami-devs-reconsidering-sexual-assault-scene/
It's a fascinating example of a complete lack of self awareness from a fan of extremely violent games. Because there's nothing disturbing about going around and killing people, right? Personally, I find Hotline Miami sickening and disturbing. I don't write articles about how the developers should be more sensitive about violence. Instead of it, I play it every day.
By the way, I checked out what do they mean by "triggering". It turned out that I get something like this by playing normal violent video games. Unlike what rape victim lobby claims, getting murdered certainly isn't a pre-requisite for suffering lasting trauma from real life non-sexual violence.

Additionally, what creeps me out about this people how obsessed they are with manipulating the masses through culture to fit their specific agenda. To most of normal people "rape jokes" are a part of black humour - that is humour base on stuff that is usually horrible and disgusting. To the rape victim lobby, they are designed to make rape socially acceptable.
Then they can watch a sketch about a bunch of guys bullying, beating up and murdering people in the name of ecology as a humour but when rape is added, it suddenly becomes unacceptable and suddenly becomes a promotion of rape as a male bonding ritual. What the hell is wrong with these people?



upen -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 5:34:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Boomer78

I agree with some of the sentiment about demos, but I wonder why RPS decided to make a case against Matrix/Slitherine. It's not like any major distributor does demos any more. The last demo from a major dist. I remember playing was for the first Crysis, way back in like '08 or something.


Major distributors aren't selling games for $80 4+ years after release.

Also many games that are outside the mainstream do demos so people can try them out first. Nearly everything Paradox puts out has a demo and other strategy games from major studios (XCOM comes to mind) also have demos. There are several games Matrix sells that I would probably buy if I could just try playing them first but since that's not an option I'll take my money elsewhere. I sank $150+ into the Combat Mission games from Battlefront based solely on their demos.



Toby42 -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 5:50:48 PM)

YAWN!! [8|]



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone... (11/23/2013 6:14:28 PM)

I could care less of what Joan Funk is. Her opinion is no better than anyone else.



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