RE: Helicopters in FPC (Full Version)

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Mad Russian -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (12/29/2014 2:45:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Clark

I wouldn't get too worked up about outputs from the tactical resolution engine - as a minimum, I'd suggest everyone do the obvious:

- Play either solitaire with no AI, or hotseat.
- Turn off limited orders.
- Edit the scenarios to remove forces handled poorly by the game engine.
- Edit the database as required to meet your own political or emotional needs.

I think it's useful to remember the ideological basis of the game, before raising comparisons to real-world experience. Red Storm is explicitly NOT a military-grade or realistic simulation; it's an entertainment software product specifically designed as a Russian Power Fantasy. The scenarios and equipment databases are specified to resolve every possible ambiguity as much as possible in the favour of the Soviets, and the overarching setting is basically 30-foot-tall Russian Supermen vs prostrate American victims. I definitely see the virtue in the approach taken by the game designers; Measuring Military Power by Epstein assumes a similarly extreme worst/best case scenario, although in that case it's more as an epidemiological hedge than what's seen here. Comparisons to the real world are neither appropriate nor ultimately helpful; if you're using the default database, you really deserve what you're getting. Either way, this is still the most entertaining video game I've bought in the last year; as long as your expectations are realistic, you'll definitely get excellent value for your money.




The Orders of Battle are taken from official sources for all nations involved. The equipment stats are taken from a myriad of sources to get as close to what may have been their actual performance. Long hours were spent on deployment locations and movement rates to create the scenarios. What you got is, as close as we could come to, what we thought would have possibly happened given the overall story line of the basic premise for an attack.

Along with that simply remember that Hitler too was downplaying Soviet combat capabilities.

Play the game however you like or change it if you want. We created it so you can do either.

Good Hunting.

MR



LuckyJim1010 -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (12/29/2014 6:52:06 PM)

I think it would be interesting to give MBT's the ability to engage Helicopters with main guns just to what diference it would make.
But I apprciate that transales into a lot of code changes.
As to the 'Superman Soviet', I am not sure where that comes from.
If I had quit the scenario when the game had told me to I would have decimated Ivans forces for the loss of 2 or 3 tanks.
Plus the heavy arty had 2 TOT's on the PBI of the Red Army just outside Nordheim, I actually wept at the Humanity of it all [:)]



Deathtreader -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (12/29/2014 11:25:16 PM)

Hi,

Correcting the Warrior's stats implies there will be a version 2.09, correct?

Rob.



CapnDarwin -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (12/30/2014 12:53:34 AM)

Rob,

We will discuss a 2.09 at some point this week in a Dev call. We will need to see what, if anything else needs dealt with too. The next problem is dealing with the fact we are cutting over to working the 2.1 branch of code and back stepping into the 2.0x may be tricky as well. As soon as we know more I'll pass along the info.



Lowlaner2012 -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (12/31/2014 11:42:22 AM)

Hi there Capn Darwin, hope you had a good Xmas and will hae a good new year :)

Surely the Warrior sensor mistake can be fixed with a Hotfix at some point...



CapnDarwin -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (12/31/2014 1:51:10 PM)

True, it could be a hot fix only depending on the need to fix other things. It does force a data rebuild on the scenarios. We will know more once we come out of the holidays.



Lowlaner2012 -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (12/31/2014 2:06:09 PM)

Thanks for getting back to me, I have not noticed any other problems... although I am not th most observant of people :-)

I played the first mission of the American campaign last night and had a blast....



delete1 -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/2/2015 9:12:35 AM)

+1 Capn Darwin! Thats probably his NATO hurt ego speaking out loud. I would not take him too seriously. As Mad Russian have already said, Clark can mod his user data file so he can have "his version" of whats a serious cold war simulation is supposed to be. Perhaps a Rambo game version for his liking! One NATO rifle man wiping out the entire red army…:)!
This game is absolutely great. You guys have done an outstanding job! I like how you simulate the differences (doctrine and equipments) from all the nations involved. Nice to see and feel that each side has its weaknesses and strengths. Using the right tactics, you can blast the opponent with either NATO or the Pact. I am now playing more and more with the Soviet side. Very tough! You are always in the advance, more exposed, facing the enemy well sealed in the defense. You have to plan way ahead, try to position your troops the best way you can and even thou be prepared to take heavy losses in the process! Not an easy task! I think I am turning into a NATO specialist killer! Hehehe…
Looking forward 2.1 version. Have a nice 2015 you all! Lots of success and accomplishments!



Mad Russian -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/2/2015 1:59:10 PM)

Daniel, welcome to the series!!

Thanks for the kind words, we appreciate when all of you share your gaming experiences with us.

I play a lot from the Soviet side because I feel they are the hardest to get right. There is a misconception that the Soviets usually win but it's been our experience that the opposite is true. That NATO will win more often with the same level of game play on both sides of the tank barrel. So, I work at getting the Soviet mix where they at least have a chance to win.

For those that think the Soviets are supermen I would suggest they try playing them in the scenarios as well. [8D]

Good Hunting.

MR



delete1 -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/3/2015 8:18:51 PM)

Thank you for your welcome Mad Russian! The level of support and attention you guys offer to your customers is superb. Should be a reference in the market!

Have a couple of friends that will be joining the series soon.

Really enjoying the game! Hard as hell, indeed, with the soviets! I also feel that is harder to get it right with them. For me the path for proficiency in this game would be: Tutorial, NATO scenarios and for the real and final test...the Warsaw Pact scenarios! :) So exposed. Mines everywhere...those pesky thermal sensors from NATO dogs!! :) Have to get close, have to get close...undetected, undetected...my God! hehehe...and the rain...always at the most critical situations that annoying rain appears and my beloved Frogfoot cant take off to crush that dammit Challenger that is killing me!!!...oh boy! I can tell you...I do have a huge respect now for the Soviet commanders. Besides all that...failure is not an option Comrade! Holly Jesus....:)

I get myself imagining all this in real life. Games like this increases even more my admiration and respect for all involved in the military. Independently of the country.

Mad Russian, how odd would be to play NATO scenarios with the Soviet side? Is it somehow playable, or should I avoid it? Just wondering...I will look for some custom made soviet ones and try in the future to build some on my own. The problem with the second option is that I have a very superficial knowledge at military units and formations. I looked at the game list units and got really overwhelmed! Will try to learn with time. Still have lot to learn with the scenarios in game...that will keep me busy for a while! :)

Anyway, great game, hope you guys have the resources to expand this game for years to come!



Mad Russian -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/3/2015 10:21:45 PM)

Mi-24 Hind.

In NATO circles, the export versions, Mi-25 and Mi-35, are denoted with a letter suffix as "Hind D" and "Hind E" respectively.

Iran–Iraq War (1980–1988)

The Mi-25 saw considerable use by the Iraqi Army during the long war against Iran. Its heavy armament was a key factor in causing severe damage to Iranian ground forces during the war. However, the Mi-25s lacked an effective anti-tank capability, as they were only armed with obsolete 9M17 Skorpion missiles. This led the Iraqis to develop new gunship tactics, with help from East German advisors. The Mi-25s would form "hunter-killer" teams with French-built Aérospatiale Gazelles, with the Mi-25s leading the attack and using their massive firepower to suppress Iranian air defenses, and the Gazelles using their HOT missiles to engage armored fighting vehicles. These tactics proved effective in halting Iranian offensives, such as Operation Ramadan in July 1982.

This war also saw the only confirmed air-to-air helicopter battles in history with the Iraqi Mi-25s flying against Iranian AH-1J SeaCobras (supplied by the United States before the Iranian Revolution) on several separate occasions. Not long after Iraq's initial invasion of Iran, in November 1980 two Iranian SeaCobras crept up on two Mi-25s and hit them with TOW wire-guided antitank missiles. One Mi-25 went down immediately, the other was badly damaged and crashed before reaching base. The Iranians pulled off a repeat performance on 24 April 1981, destroying two Mi-25s without incurring losses to themselves.

The Iraqis hit back, claiming the destruction of a SeaCobra on 14 September 1983 (with YaKB machine gun), then three SeaCobras on 5 February 1984 and three more on 25 February 1984 (two with Falanga missiles, one with S-5 rockets). After a lull in helicopter losses, each side lost a gunship on 13 February 1986. Later, a Mi-25 claimed a SeaCobra shot down with YaKB gun on 16 February, and a SeaCobra claimed a Mi-25 shot down with rockets on 18 February. The last engagement between the two types was on 22 May 1986, when Mi-25s shot down a SeaCobra. The final claim tally was 10 SeaCobras destroyed and 6 Mi-25s destroyed. The relatively small numbers and the inevitable disputes over actual kill numbers makes it unclear if one gunship had a real technical superiority over the other. Iraqi Mi-25s also claimed a total of 43 kills against other Iranian helicopters, such as Agusta-Bell UH-1 Hueys.

In general, the Iraqi pilots liked the Mi-25, in particular for its high speed, long range, high versatility and large weapon load, but disliked the relatively ineffectual weapons and lack of agility. The Mi-25 was also used by Iraq in chemical warfare against Iranians and Kurdish civilians in Halabja.

Good Hunting.

MR



delete1 -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/4/2015 1:52:16 AM)

Wow...astonishing...

Got the message Sir! Getting those Hinds ready to fly Comrade! :)

ps: Can you suggest me where do I find more war events descriptions like this? Specifically engagements between Russian and western equipments. Dont know why Russian hardware have always had a special, very deep and dormant, interest on my part. Even though I dont know much about them. Regarding Russian helicopters and jets might be something in its silhouette that amaze me...

Half of my family is from US…have a couple of cousins entering the US army…will try to keep my Russian interest dormant for now…hahaha…



MaxDamage -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/4/2015 1:16:20 PM)

I just dont get it why the soviets have lower morale. Soviet/russian morale was high in every 20 century war. If you heard about Stalingrad or Kursk. I cant find an explanation for this.



Mad Russian -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/4/2015 1:47:16 PM)

Why the Soviets have a lower morale in what?

Good Hunting.

MR



MaxDamage -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/4/2015 2:58:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Why the Soviets have a lower morale in what?

Good Hunting.

MR

I ve been scrolling through the user documents on all game's factions and the soviet faction has the lowest morale for some reason. While this is all highly debatable, i cant agree with that. I agree Wger morale must be high because it all takes place in Germany but there are also east german troops alongside the soviets and by the way the soviets were in Germany in 1945 already and didnt show any lack of morale back then. I think both british and american morale should be lower then soviet and Wgerman. They knew they were outgunned and as some people mentioned were going to "shoot hinds with tank main gun" which i dont know how to describe other then desperation.

EDIT Ok, got that figured in steam thanks.



CapnDarwin -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/4/2015 4:44:33 PM)

The training and morale values in the data reflect an average of the countries entire forces. Not just the A-team. This is a subjective value for sure, but you have to look at all types of troops commandoes down to conscripts. It is up to the scenario designer to go in and adjust those values to better reflect the forces in a scenario. If you are clashing average units (B/C grade forces) you are ready roll.

As stated on Steam, Mad Russian modified all those soft values for each scenario in the game based on the situation for the scenario. [8D]



Tazak -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/4/2015 4:47:35 PM)

Maxdamage, read "The Liberators: My Life in the Soviet Army" by Victor Suvorov, the soviet army was in the majority conscript based army which historically have been plagued by poor morale. The Soviets in 1945 had just defeated the germans after nearly 4 years of war so you'd expect their morale at the time to be high, after post war reductions and the start of 2-3 year conscript period, fast forward 20-30 years and you'll find morale will be lower than profession armies (look at the Falklands war in 1982).

The west germans operated a mix of limited conscription and volunteer service but given they are fighting for their homeland so you'd expect them to have good morale.

As to the British, we knew it would be a tough fight but the general consensus was we would give the soviets a tough time so morale was never going to be a problem unlike MOD procurement procedures. I cant comment on the US forces as we were too far north to bump into them often.



MaxDamage -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/4/2015 7:18:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tazak

Maxdamage, read "The Liberators: My Life in the Soviet Army" by Victor Suvorov, the soviet army was in the majority conscript based army which historically have been plagued by poor morale. The Soviets in 1945 had just defeated the germans after nearly 4 years of war so you'd expect their morale at the time to be high, after post war reductions and the start of 2-3 year conscript period, fast forward 20-30 years and you'll find morale will be lower than profession armies (look at the Falklands war in 1982).

The west germans operated a mix of limited conscription and volunteer service but given they are fighting for their homeland so you'd expect them to have good morale.

As to the British, we knew it would be a tough fight but the general consensus was we would give the soviets a tough time so morale was never going to be a problem unlike MOD procurement procedures. I cant comment on the US forces as we were too far north to bump into them often.

Suvorov defected to the UK from the soviet Union. Basically its a traitor. if you know something about traitors, its that they arent trustworthy. Especially in regards to thoise whom they betray. In the UK he got those bonus points for writing anti soviet. If you wanted to bring up a decent source just dont do this lol. I have read lots of memoirs and rememberings from the soviet veterans from ww2 in native language and i have a pretty good grip on the subject. People actually interview them all the time lately while they are still alive and there are sites where you can read it all openly. Most of the veterans say that they felt they will win the war in any case even in the 1941 they always had this faith. Thats a HIGH morale.



Kommissar -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/4/2015 11:00:45 PM)

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Soviet Army is made up various different republics and ethnic groups. Some of them are not going to be all that keen to fight in the first place. There is also a language problem in that many of the conscripts are not necessarily Russian or have a thorough grasp of Russian while most of the officers will likely be of Russian ethnicity. This leads to communication problems which are only exacerbated in something as extreme as a combat environment. When you can only understand the most basic of commands from an officer you can only understand a little, this will only add even further confusion and negatively affect morale.



MaxDamage -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/4/2015 11:34:37 PM)

This may be an exxageration about the language barrier in soviet army. It happened in ww2 i ve heard a bout it a couple of times but those were hastily conscripted units, kinda last resort situation and it would be impossible in the units which take part in the game.



Mad Russian -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/5/2015 1:13:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxDamage

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tazak

Maxdamage, read "The Liberators: My Life in the Soviet Army" by Victor Suvorov, the soviet army was in the majority conscript based army which historically have been plagued by poor morale. The Soviets in 1945 had just defeated the germans after nearly 4 years of war so you'd expect their morale at the time to be high, after post war reductions and the start of 2-3 year conscript period, fast forward 20-30 years and you'll find morale will be lower than profession armies (look at the Falklands war in 1982).

The west germans operated a mix of limited conscription and volunteer service but given they are fighting for their homeland so you'd expect them to have good morale.

As to the British, we knew it would be a tough fight but the general consensus was we would give the soviets a tough time so morale was never going to be a problem unlike MOD procurement procedures. I cant comment on the US forces as we were too far north to bump into them often.

Suvorov defected to the UK from the soviet Union. Basically its a traitor. if you know something about traitors, its that they arent trustworthy. Especially in regards to thoise whom they betray. In the UK he got those bonus points for writing anti soviet. If you wanted to bring up a decent source just dont do this lol. I have read lots of memoirs and rememberings from the soviet veterans from ww2 in native language and i have a pretty good grip on the subject. People actually interview them all the time lately while they are still alive and there are sites where you can read it all openly. Most of the veterans say that they felt they will win the war in any case even in the 1941 they always had this faith. Thats a HIGH morale.


And where do you live?

Good Hunting.

MR



Kommissar -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/5/2015 5:26:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxDamage

This may be an exxageration about the language barrier in soviet army. It happened in ww2 i ve heard a bout it a couple of times but those were hastily conscripted units, kinda last resort situation and it would be impossible in the units which take part in the game.


That might not be factor in the initial divisions in the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany, but casualties in a modern war between two major powers/groups like NATO and WarPac would quickly escalate. Assuming NATO puts up a half way competent defense, I doubt it would take all that long before the Soviets would have to throw in secondary and tertiary units in which that language problem may become a factor. Some ethnic groups are well Russified and this wouldn't be a problem, but some are not.

That being said, I really haven't paid much attention to Soviet morale values in game. I don't find it much of a factor in terms of preventing me from playing the Soviets effectively. I tend to stay away from any long range duels with NATO forces and if I have to commit a direct attack over unfavorable ground, I try to attack on multiple vectors to prevent effective concentration of fire and increase chances one of the groups can close in and even up the odds. The bigger challenge is when there is no real room for maneuver. In those situations, the NATO player (if he has properly positioned his forces) can inflict some pretty serious damage and delay on any attacking force.



MaxDamage -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/5/2015 8:48:22 AM)

Im from Russia.



MaxDamage -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/5/2015 9:00:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kommissar


quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxDamage

This may be an exxageration about the language barrier in soviet army. It happened in ww2 i ve heard a bout it a couple of times but those were hastily conscripted units, kinda last resort situation and it would be impossible in the units which take part in the game.


That might not be factor in the initial divisions in the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany, but casualties in a modern war between two major powers/groups like NATO and WarPac would quickly escalate. Assuming NATO puts up a half way competent defense, I doubt it would take all that long before the Soviets would have to throw in secondary and tertiary units in which that language problem may become a factor. Some ethnic groups are well Russified and this wouldn't be a problem, but some are not.

That being said, I really haven't paid much attention to Soviet morale values in game. I don't find it much of a factor in terms of preventing me from playing the Soviets effectively. I tend to stay away from any long range duels with NATO forces and if I have to commit a direct attack over unfavorable ground, I try to attack on multiple vectors to prevent effective concentration of fire and increase chances one of the groups can close in and even up the odds. The bigger challenge is when there is no real room for maneuver. In those situations, the NATO player (if he has properly positioned his forces) can inflict some pretty serious damage and delay on any attacking force.

That during ww2 when the USSR was still young. Later 95+ % people were educated to speak russian in elementary schools.



delete1 -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/5/2015 3:41:10 PM)

MaxDamage, I think I understand your point.

For me, I have a tendency to question generalized concepts. History descriptions and News are biased and one sided, no matter the source. At least thats the way I confront everything I read. One thing that I try to do is to read different sources, especially from the parties involved in a particular subject.

In this discussion, for example, I would read the "Liberators: My Life in the Soviet Army" by Victor Suvorov as suggested by Tazak as well as any source you might suggest me (I have read lots of memoirs and rememberings from the soviet veterans from ww2 in native language and i have a pretty good grip on the subject). The only problem here is that I will have a hard time reading russian...:), but that way I would come up with a better idea of the situation, reading and learning from opposite points of view and experiences.

One thing that is certain is that life is not black and white as normally everybody put it. It is a huge range of an infinite tones of gray...

Regarding the game, we can edit it to our liking. I will do that for the Soviet side as soon as I get a better proficiency in the game and the 4th tutorial is released. :) Even thou, in respect of the OTS team hard work, I do feel that the team came up with a very reasonable representation of a Cold War gone Hot situation in 89. I know that they have mentioned that they have collected a huge amount of documents and informations from a variety of different sources. Thats not a easy task to do!

Best Regards to you all,



IronMikeGolf -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/5/2015 3:59:57 PM)

I think the morale discussion is worthy of its own discussion thread



Tophat1815 -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/5/2015 4:12:09 PM)


Maxdamage,you keep referencing WWII but the 70's,80's and 90's are 25 to 50 years after "the great patriotic war". Soviet forces on the rampage getting revenge on the Nazi's for gutting the western Soviet Union(and its occupied east European territories) are far in the past when these "modern" scenarios take place.

However soviet category A,B and C formations are going to have different morale values. How superior or inferior to various west European/US/Canadian forces is open to debate. Need to go by scenario time period. Also each unit/formation is different as well,for both sides. I really need to purchase this game,belated xmas gift for me..[sm=tank2-39.gif] How MadRussian worked the morale for the various scenarios alone now has me intrigued.



Mad Russian -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/5/2015 6:28:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

How MadRussian worked the morale for the various scenarios alone now has me intrigued.



That was the easy part. I took our morale for when I was there and basically used that for everyone involved. I figured everybody would be about the same in the opening rounds. Not exactly the same and each unit has a morale set up or down to how I felt an entire units morale would be. So, there is no blanket morale applied to a side in any of the scenarios/campaigns I created.



Good Hunting.

MR



Mad Russian -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/5/2015 7:38:33 PM)

More Russian Helo's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPLtMMe6L-A

All this is all great and wonderful but that double rotor setup looks like it would have a huge signature on the field and would be much harder to put into covered positions.

Good Hunting.

MR



MaxDamage -> RE: Helicopters in FPC (1/5/2015 8:11:22 PM)

You mean the sheer height of the helicopter with dual rotors? But if you do the longbow-style setup for the helo's sensors on top of the rotors thats not even a disadvantage anymore.

I dunno from what ive heard ka 50 can strafe sideways 90-100 kmh while maintaining its nose pointed at one spot, can pretty much rotate 360 degrees while flying at one direction at pretty high speeds and generally do big stunts. Also, from what i heard ka29 is a much more stable firing platform when compared to hind and also i heard that mi8 in afghanistan had trouble with flying in mountaineous sparse air while kamovs would have little trouble.

Generally, dual rotor seems to give improved flight characteristics to a helicopter i think this includes things like climb rate and max altitude. All that could give certain advantages in both air to air and air to ground and just transport role.



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