What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (Full Version)

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Footslogger -> What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 1:46:46 AM)

Interesting of how life would have been under nazis.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTy8yHXt7Q0


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Yaab -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 5:55:03 AM)

Didn't Germans occupy Guernsey and Jersey islands?



crsutton -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 1:50:14 PM)

A what-if history and not a very good one at that. Nobody knows. One thing for sure, in spite of having the best army in the world, the German Navy was pitifully small and neither the army navy or air force had had the training, doctrine or equipment to mount anything other than minor amphibious operations. Given the time frame needed, the operation would have been on a shoestring and would have just as likely ended in a German disaster. Now that would be a much more reasonable what-if to contemplate.[;)]



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 2:41:10 PM)

The British would had put their entire navy to prevent a D-day scenario. Even with complete air superiority, the Germans would have had a very hard time trying to sink so many battleships and cruisers. The Lufftwaffe didn't design torpedo bomber and their torpedoes were faulty in 1940, but more important, they did not train for naval operations. So, they had nothing close to the performance of hard core veteran Japanese Betty bombers.

They had Stuka dive bombers and Heinkels/ Junkers/ Dorniers level bombers. The former would had wounded, but not sunk the fleet. The later would had done very little against fast moving targets.

Preventing the invasion was the core, "do or die" mission of the RN. And the British would had accepted any losses in ships, to avoid it





TulliusDetritus -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 3:02:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

The British would had put their entire navy to prevent a D-day scenario. Even with complete air superiority, the Germans would have had a very hard time trying to sink so many battleships and cruisers. The Lufftwaffe didn't design torpedo bomber and their torpedoes were faulty in 1940, but more important, they did not train for naval operations. So, they had nothing close to the performance of hard core veteran Japanese Betty bombers.


If you read Churchill's WW2 memoirs (as I did) you will notice that was NOT the British plan. The British were sceptical about the Royal Navy stopping, destroying the first German amphibious landings on British soil [;)]

The plan was to strike after the initial landings had been done (4, 6 divisions?). THEN the Royal Navy would block any attempt to ressuply the German forces in Britain.

The result is the same, but the approach is totally different.

Again, they were not thinking about preventing a D-Day scenario because the units were too far to intervene (Scotland).

And the German aviators sunk MANY allied ships (even really fast ones like DDs). They were truly dangerous, feared by the British themselves [8D]



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 3:26:30 PM)

I didn't know it was their strategy to wait a bit.... but 4 to 6 divisions? no way... maybe 1 or 2 divisions and go very lightly equiped as the Japanese did early war (against tremendously light resistance)

it took the Allies significant resources and years or planning, trainning, preparing, etc. to achieve a 5-division invasion in 1944

And of couse German dive-bombing were top notch, but battleships were very tough targets; unless torpedoes are in the equation



TulliusDetritus -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 3:36:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I didn't know it was their strategy to wait a bit....


The British did NOT want to wait. Their guts were telling them to stop them on D-Day itself. They were forced to adopt this strategy ("wait a bit"). Yes, even the mighty Royal Navy could not stop those landings. I mean, the British themselves believed that. And those people knew perfectly what naval power means... ergo... [:)]

It is true that the torpedos are the deadly weapon (and the Germans lacked them). But well placed bombs can knock out a big ship for some weeks or months [8D] And the Germans were really good at that. For practical purposes, if these ships leave the area and the invasion goes unmolested the result is again the same.



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 3:53:55 PM)

Well I am thinking there was also this tremedous fear of level bombers as anti-shipping weapons, and this was proven wrong only by mid 1942. So it is also possible that the British were overstimating the risks to their fleet.

In the scenario of Great Britain's survival at the stake, I bet they would just keep their damaged ships fighting until the end.







TulliusDetritus -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 4:08:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Well I am thinking there was also this tremedous fear of level bombers as anti-shipping weapons, and this was proven wrong only by mid 1942. So it is also possible that the British were overstimating the risks to their fleet.

In the scenario of Great Britain's survival at the stake, I bet they would just keep their damaged ships fighting until the end.


For starters, I think the Germans had 0% chances of successfully invanding the British Isles [8D] Period.

As for fighting to death (the big ships)... hummm... *politics, my friend* Churchill -again in his WW2 memoirs- says here and there (more than once that is) that if events were going really wrong, he needed an *intact* Royal Navy to put on the negotiation table. He could not forget what happened with the French Fleet after the French surrendered.

So what would have prevailed? Pure military choices (a la Japanese => everyone dies) or politics? This we will never know. But we know Churchill (the Prime Minister after all) mentioned this political option. To press the Americans? Maybe.



HexHead -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 4:20:05 PM)

Churchill's government (a 'national' gov't under British procedures - there was no election, recall, Churchill succeeded to the PM's post) had made it about as clear as one can make it that there were to be no negotiations with the Hitlerite cabal.

Something about Naziism being eradicated from the face of the earth, IIRC. The RN was, if necessary, to remove to the western hemisphere to keep a fleet-in-being intact.

Not a bargaining chip. I've read the six-volume work more than once and some volumes thrice or more. Don't take a single sentence, musing about possibilities, as an actual policy.

As far as actuality?

"Not bloody likely, mate."



HexHead -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 4:26:02 PM)

ADDENDUM TO ABOVE

From the remake of Battle of Britain (ca. 1970)(paraphrased):

[Bern- the British embassy]

Enter German diplomat (Curt Juergens):

GD: Why don't you surrender? You can't possibly face all of Europe alone.

Brit. Diplo. (Ralph Richardson): If you're so bloody sure of yourself, why don't you come across then? The last little corporal that tried it came a-cropper.

***

Damn straight.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 4:48:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

Churchill's government (a 'national' gov't under British procedures - there was no election, recall, Churchill succeeded to the PM's post) had made it about as clear as one can make it that there were to be no negotiations with the Hitlerite cabal.

Something about Naziism being eradicated from the face of the earth, IIRC. The RN was, if necessary, to remove to the western hemisphere to keep a fleet-in-being intact.


But eradicated by whom exactly? Not by the British. Why did they mobilize so few divisions (this always striked me: The British Empire was no small country. They had many resources)? Political decision taken very soon [;)] As if... somehow... sooner or later someone else might "eradicate" them. Namely the Red Army and eventually the Americans...

Read Churchill again. He mentions something like "we would hate to give the ships... but...". Ok, let's pretend he never said it. But we have to pay attention to a pure rhetorical piece: the eradicate speech thing. And this despite the British were TOTALLY uncapable of eradicating the Germans alone in the first place [:D]

This is the crude real world, politics, not Walt Dysney, mate [8D]



HexHead -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 5:06:22 PM)

I think your shades of meaning & understanding are a bit off. In 1940, the central point was not BWAHAHA, we gotcha sucker, but that the UK would not surrender or negotiate with those thugs. Also, there was no way the UK was going to hand over the Home Fleet to get a better deal. (A) there was no deal & would be no deal, (B) the UK wasn't stupid and most certainly wasn't going to hand over a force capable of giving the USN a run for its money.

That said, I'm done on this thread. I find the whole subject to be disquieting, and I don't like disquiet & upset with tiffin.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 5:22:46 PM)

Not a better deal. But to make sure the Americans would NEVER allow the British to fall [;)] Because er... nasty consequences might *follow* When desperate you use desperate tactics. Not surprising.

This is a what-if and LOL I hate what-ifs!



Encircled -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 6:12:54 PM)

I think the book "Dunkirk, fight to the last man" by Hugh Sebag Montifiere (spelling?) has a couple of pages taken from cabinet meetings and I think (going from memory here) the cabinet talked about possible peace, but it never really took off. I'm fairly sure though that they were willing to listen to an approach through Mussolini, but didn't do anything more than that.

Having seen the German army plan for Seelion, and the much smaller German Navy plan for it, it wasn't really an option for the Germans.



Amoral -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 7:19:46 PM)

Churchill in his memoirs talks about how he threatened the americans with a scenario where the british fleet would fight under Nazi flag in order to scare them into further lend lease payments.

It basically went:
Of course _I_ would never negotiate with the hitlerite thugs, but one can easily imagine a scenario where the nazis invade and install a Quisling government. And that puppet gov't might hand over the fleet. And then where would you be?



HexHead -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 7:27:54 PM)

He wasn't 'threatening' anyone. Reminding a would be ally of possible consequences, due to circumstances that would have long passed out of your control, is not a threat. It is what we in the business call 'a frank assessment.'



Amoral -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 7:52:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

He wasn't 'threatening' anyone. Reminding a would be ally of possible consequences, due to circumstances that would have long passed out of your control, is not a threat. It is what we in the business call 'a frank assessment.'


Before he sent that memo, he had already concluded that the situation was impossible. That it would never happen because his government would hand over the fleet to Canada or one of the other Dominions if the US had not entered the war when such a decision became necessary. It was not a frank assesment, it was a boogeyman.



HexHead -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 8:11:21 PM)

"The situation" is unclear to me. I don't think it was a 'boogeyman', nor was it a threat. It was HM PM letting the US know that dire consequences could obtain, but only if a horrific defeat had happened; not that it would obtain, but that prudence would dictate that the possibility not be discounted entirely.



AW1Steve -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 8:24:58 PM)

Germany barely was successful in taking Norway by sea. Even Hitler didn't have too much hope for taking the UK by sea. As he once said, "On land I am a lion , at sea, a coward". The allies nearly failed in several invasions in spite of having nearly total air supremacy , specialized landing craft and ships, lots of training and experience , and absolute MARITIME supremacy (think Anzio). A German attempt to carry out Sea lion would make Dieppe look like a church social.



HexHead -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 8:27:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Germany barely was successful in taking Norway by sea. Even Hitler didn't have too much hope for taking the UK by sea. As he once said, "On land I am a lion , at sea, a coward". The allies nearly failed in several invasions in spite of having nearly total air supremacy , specialized landing craft and ships, lots of training and experience , and absolute MARITIME supremacy (think Anzio). A German attempt to carry out Sea lion would make Dieppe look like a church social.


and without the coffee & donuts.



AW1Steve -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 8:31:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Germany barely was successful in taking Norway by sea. Even Hitler didn't have too much hope for taking the UK by sea. As he once said, "On land I am a lion , at sea, a coward". The allies nearly failed in several invasions in spite of having nearly total air supremacy , specialized landing craft and ships, lots of training and experience , and absolute MARITIME supremacy (think Anzio). A German attempt to carry out Sea lion would make Dieppe look like a church social.


and without the coffee & donuts.


If the Germans HAD coffee it would be ertzhad coffee! [sm=vomit-smiley-020.gif]



spence -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/25/2013 10:18:28 PM)

quote:

Germany barely was successful in taking Norway by sea.


And the Kreigsmarine took pretty severe losses doing so. There were relatively few escort type ships to protect the invasion fleet from RN light ships.

The video assumes a pretty optimistic schedule conquering Britian: roughly 40 days from invasion to the fall of London. Seems to depend on a rather lackadaisical defense or one in which the British population basically didn't care who was running the show.

The Luftwaffe was unable to inflict unacceptable losses on the RN when it evacuated the forces sent to Greece or again when it evacuated the forces on Crete. Admittedly evacuations don't win wars but in each case the Uk/Commonwealth forces got away to fight another day. Further, the RN fought through the Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine to get the convoys through to Malta and Murmansk (most of the time). When fighting for the life of the homeland I think it is delusional to expect that the RN was not going accept horrendous losses to sink a German invasion. Germany had no great wealth of invasion shipping (and had to withdraw such shipping as it did have from the maintenance of the general European economy).



Feltan -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/26/2013 2:30:25 AM)

Yeah, yeah, yeah ......

BUT, if the Germans had been successful -- do you realize how much Monty Python would have sucked! The Krauts have no real sense of humor.

Regards,
Feltan



witpqs -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/26/2013 3:09:04 AM)

In the name of (stereotupical) efficiency, the poor Brits would have had to make due with the German pre-war joke.

"My dog has no nose."

"How does he smell?"

"Awful!"



JeffroK -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/26/2013 6:20:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Yeah, yeah, yeah ......

BUT, if the Germans had been successful -- do you realize how much Monty Python would have sucked! The Krauts have no real sense of humor.

Regards,
Feltan

But they would have had a better Soccer team!



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/26/2013 8:12:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Yeah, yeah, yeah ......

BUT, if the Germans had been successful -- do you realize how much Monty Python would have sucked! The Krauts have no real sense of humor.

Regards,
Feltan

But they would have had a better Soccer team!


[image]local://upfiles/1313/611CF95A983340FA9D0DACCC3671E3FE.gif[/image]



But shht! There are Krauts on this forum - so don't mention the war!




castor troy -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/26/2013 9:26:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I didn't know it was their strategy to wait a bit.... but 4 to 6 divisions? no way... maybe 1 or 2 divisions and go very lightly equiped as the Japanese did early war (against tremendously light resistance)

it took the Allies significant resources and years or planning, trainning, preparing, etc. to achieve a 5-division invasion in 1944

And of couse German dive-bombing were top notch, but battleships were very tough targets; unless torpedoes are in the equation



couple of 500kg bombs on a BB will mission kill it. It's not always about sinking it, even if it only comes down to a certain number of bombs and fires plus other damage may sink the ship. And everything else in terms of ships can be sunk with bombs of that size. The Luftwaffe was probably a bigger threat to the RN than the Kriegsmarine was.



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/26/2013 10:56:05 AM)

Stukas carried 250kg bombs. so we are talking Junkers, Heinkels or Dorniers... as far as I know these were all "glide" bombers so easier (bigger target) to kill than real dive bombers.
And hitting a warship "cost" many planes. the Luftwaffe would had started the campaign with many losses from the Battle of Britain. not to mention the need to support the ground troops if a beachhead was achieved

The Luftwaffe would had certainly damaged the RN; significantly more than the Kriegsmarine. But as Spence mentioned, their record on Greece, Malta, Norway and convoys (Murmansk and Malta) was never crippling.. capable of inflicting damage but never to fully stop the RN.












Encircled -> RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain? (11/26/2013 11:04:07 AM)

We'd have had a better football team?

Hell, we should have surrendered!



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