[FIXED B557] Refuel air operations (Full Version)

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thbrix -> [FIXED B557] Refuel air operations (11/30/2013 10:27:53 AM)

Hi, i see there are other post regarding air refueling and RTB logic. So if my observations are known stuff, you can disregard this post.

I have tested Air refueling and RTB logic, and it seems to me there is a bug. The bug is that the logic don't work on groups, but it works on an individual member level. I will try to explain.

* if i set "Use refuel" on a group, refueling will NOT take place, the group will RTB. Sometimes they make it to the airfield, sometimes they crash. Maybe we need a higher BINGO limit? seems like the logic aims for 0kg fuel at the homebase?

* if i press NUM9, and set "Use refuel" on the individual members of the group, refueling works. It works although the group-doctrine indicates "no refuel" hereafter.

* if "use refuel" is set to the individual group member (to get it to work), you cant order "RTB", without setting "use refuel" to "no", this also have to be done to the individual member.

Hope you can use this info to something.

My test scenario is attached.

Best regards




thbrix -> RE: Refuel air operations (11/30/2013 11:08:51 AM)

I can supply with the following testresults...

If i put 3 tankers in a refueling support mission with the 1/3 rule, things can go very bad. When the active tanker itself is RTB, in the same time your airassets needs refuel. The tanker will crash because of the "to late" RTB-time, and the airassets will also crash because the tanker is RTB before another tanker is in place. Thats a lot of losses!

So maybe the 1/3 rule, should work differently, so the active tanker stays in track until the next tanker is in place. This logic would also make sense, when setting up CAP patrols.

So to sum it up:

1. "Use refuel" should work on grouplevel.
2. "RTB" should work, disregarding "Use refuel" is set.
3. "RTB" should use higher BINGO levels, so "out-of-fuel" crash will not occur.
4. 1/3 rule should have no gaps.

As a bonus i would really appreciate the the dissolved group reassembles after refuel.

Best regards.







mikmykWS -> RE: Refuel air operations (11/30/2013 10:19:55 PM)

Logged. Thanks for the time, effort and thought but into this one. We'll take a look.

Thanks!

mike



Dimitris -> RE: Refuel air operations (12/2/2013 12:54:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thbrix
So maybe the 1/3 rule, should work differently, so the active tanker stays in track until the next tanker is in place. This logic would also make sense, when setting up CAP patrols.


If that happens then the departing tanker will not have enough fuel to get back to base.



thbrix -> RE: Refuel air operations (12/2/2013 1:10:05 PM)

I dont have insight in the current logic, but if i presume that:

* you know the distance from base to Area of operation, and
* you know the fuelburn for that distance on cruise-speed

Then you know, when its time to launch tanker2, so it can be in place, when tanker1 reaches BINGO. That way, tanker1 can reach home. I would set BINGO to include a fair reserve.

Of course the BINGO-calculations should be ongoing, in case you change the distance.






El Savior -> RE: Refuel air operations (12/2/2013 4:09:09 PM)

Or can bingo fuel set higher on tankers only?



thbrix -> RE: Refuel air operations (12/2/2013 4:14:48 PM)

What do you mean by that El Savior?



El Savior -> RE: Refuel air operations (12/2/2013 4:31:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thbrix

If i put 3 tankers in a refueling support mission with the 1/3 rule, things can go very bad. When the active tanker itself is RTB, in the same time your airassets needs refuel. The tanker will crash because of the "to late" RTB-time, and the airassets will also crash because the tanker is RTB before another tanker is in place. Thats a lot of losses!


I was referring to tankers crashing b'coz having too little reserve fuel. If bingo fuel can be changed by type, maybe RTB can be set higher for them. So tankers will get RTB sooner and more fuel left in tanks. I havent seen tankers going down in my scenarios, but I use them so little so hard to say anything more.



thbrix -> RE: Refuel air operations (12/2/2013 6:14:55 PM)

As i see it, its a simple calculation, which can be used for all planes.

See my attached spreadsheet to see what i mean.






thbrix -> RE: Refuel air operations (12/5/2013 12:42:01 PM)

Hi Sunburn

Have you had the time to review my suggestion for a solution? I am curious to hear, if this a possibility? thx.



Dimitris -> RE: Refuel air operations (2/4/2014 8:17:24 PM)

Not yet, sorry. Please allow some more time.



Dannyp19 -> RE: Refuel air operations (2/4/2014 9:29:29 PM)

Ive posted this before. But the refuel doctrine is not working correctly.

Example

I always set my side refueling doctrine to NO. But it doesn't matter if I launch an individual plane its refuel doc. is always YES.

If I launch a group, the group doctrine is NO, but go to unit mode and each plane in the group individually its refuel doc. is YES.

Same thing with missions

On a Group or Mission level the refuel Doc. inherits, but on an INDIVIDUAL LEVEL regardless if its in a group, on a mission, or flying solo it will not inherit the NO refuel doc.

This happens regardless of the scenario. IIRC this was fixed in an earlier build but its cropped back up again.

The refueling in Command will not work if they wont obey my COMMAND to not refuel!!

Ive said this before also. Refueling IRL is not a case of flying gas stations waiting for customers to pull up and refuel. Ill bet it takes as much planning if not more to plan refueling stages of missions and patrols than the strike/patrol missions themselves.

Getting aircraft to follow my orders is more of a priority than BINGO calcs. for refueling right now for me. I can micromanage refueling till that gets done.

Right now I just don't use refueling when possible. When I do I group a few tankers with the mission and follow the strike package they will refuel on there own but I usually lose a few tankers.







Dimitris -> RE: Refuel air operations (8/24/2014 8:27:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dannyp19

Ive posted this before. But the refuel doctrine is not working correctly.

Example

I always set my side refueling doctrine to NO. But it doesn't matter if I launch an individual plane its refuel doc. is always YES.

If I launch a group, the group doctrine is NO, but go to unit mode and each plane in the group individually its refuel doc. is YES.

Same thing with missions

On a Group or Mission level the refuel Doc. inherits, but on an INDIVIDUAL LEVEL regardless if its in a group, on a mission, or flying solo it will not inherit the NO refuel doc.

This happens regardless of the scenario. IIRC this was fixed in an earlier build but its cropped back up again.

The refueling in Command will not work if they wont obey my COMMAND to not refuel!!

Ive said this before also. Refueling IRL is not a case of flying gas stations waiting for customers to pull up and refuel. Ill bet it takes as much planning if not more to plan refueling stages of missions and patrols than the strike/patrol missions themselves.

Getting aircraft to follow my orders is more of a priority than BINGO calcs. for refueling right now for me. I can micromanage refueling till that gets done.

Right now I just don't use refueling when possible. When I do I group a few tankers with the mission and follow the strike package they will refuel on there own but I usually lose a few tankers.







This has been fixed in Build 557.



Dimitris -> RE: Refuel air operations (8/24/2014 8:34:04 AM)

Just tested the OP report with Build 557.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thbrix
* if i set "Use refuel" on a group, refueling will NOT take place, the group will RTB. Sometimes they make it to the airfield, sometimes they crash. Maybe we need a higher BINGO limit? seems like the logic aims for 0kg fuel at the homebase?


Grouped the F-16s and ordered the group to refuel, they refueled without a problem.

quote:


* if "use refuel" is set to the individual group member (to get it to work), you cant order "RTB", without setting "use refuel" to "no", this also have to be done to the individual member.


Ordered both F-16s individually to RTB while their doctrine setting was to "use refuel", and they both RTBed without issue.

So it appears all reported issues are fixed by B557.



Wasicun -> RE: Refuel air operations (8/25/2014 11:16:18 AM)

Build 557 is public?



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