Inflight refueling (Full Version)

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Dannyp19 -> Inflight refueling (12/5/2013 10:29:07 PM)

OK. Now that it seems the refueling doctrine is working properly (thanks guys) What is the best way to manage refueling? Im still losing tankers and aircraft when refueling. Its obvious the AI doesn't manage the process. Is there a simple way or do I need to do a spreadsheet?
How many aircraft can a tanker refuel?
At what point do you need to send tanker RTB?

Lets say I have 8 strike aircraft, they will need a fill-up to reach the strike point and a fill-up to get home. What is the best way to do this.




mikmykWS -> RE: Inflight refueling (12/5/2013 10:45:50 PM)

Danny if you can post some save games we can determine what exactly is going wrong.

In general I set up a couple of tanker orbits using support missions. How are you doing it?

Mike



smudge56 -> RE: Inflight refueling (12/6/2013 9:28:24 AM)

I use the 1/3 rule is that ok?



Dannyp19 -> RE: Inflight refueling (12/7/2013 6:29:50 AM)

I use support missions also. I feel like Im mismanaging it. I dont think its a bug.

When does an aircraft decide to refuel? At bingo relative to tanker position or home base?



Dimitris -> RE: Inflight refueling (12/7/2013 7:55:26 AM)

If a tanker is airborne, aircraft that can refuel from it (and have their doctrine option "use refuel" set to YES) will base their bingo calculations on it and not their home base.



Dobey455 -> RE: Inflight refueling (12/7/2013 10:04:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

If a tanker is airborne, aircraft that can refuel from it (and have their doctrine option "use refuel" set to YES) will base their bingo calculations on it and not their home base.



Thanks for that info.

How are multiple tankers handled?
If I have a large number of planes needing to refuel and multiple tankers on a refueling mission will the aircraft needing fuel take it from all of the tankers equally, or will they suck one dry then move onto the next one?

Im asking this mainly thinking of the sammler tankers such as the S-3 viking or Buddy tankers which barely have enough fuel as an individual tanker to fully fuel more than one fighter so would need to be used in groups.



Dimitris -> RE: Inflight refueling (12/7/2013 10:48:39 AM)

They load-balance them if possible. (Which is why you sometimes see thirsty aircraft go to a tanker farther out when another one is nearby). If you've seen some "Why aren't my planes just refuelling from the nearest tanker?" questions posted here, this is why.



Dannyp19 -> RE: Inflight refueling (12/7/2013 10:32:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

If a tanker is airborne, aircraft that can refuel from it (and have their doctrine option "use refuel" set to YES) will base their bingo calculations on it and not their home base.



Airborne period? What if tanker is RTB?

Airborne refueling has a lot of pesky details to take into account. Almost like trying to do an STOT.

I read an article that was describing the difficulty in tanker assets during Operation Enduring Freedom. Its a delicate balance that I dont think Command is taking into account AI wise. (Just my opinion there, y'all are doing a great job with this game)

My wife has a "girls night out" tonight. So I'll be able to get a lot of time tonight to work this out and test a few refueling operations.




Dimitris -> RE: Inflight refueling (12/8/2013 7:34:03 AM)

Tankers on RTB are not taken into account when doing the bingo calcs.

Tanker management in RL is a full-time job on its own. Most air arms handle it very conservatively and simply throw more tankers on the job than what the nominal calcs say they will need, simply because so many things can go wrong. (And even then, not a few aircraft do land on divert airfields or ditch). Allocating "just enough" tankers on an op is generally an invitation to trouble - both in RL and in Command [:)]



mikeCK -> RE: Inflight refueling (2/25/2014 12:10:39 AM)

How do I force a plane to refuel using a nearby tanker instead of returning to the carrier? I tried issuing the command "refuel" and it's mission changed to "maneuvering to refuel" and it's doctrine is set to "air refuel":yes

Yet the plane just flew right by the tanker on its way to the carrier. I needed them to stay airborne!



mikeCK -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/14/2014 10:24:41 PM)

I'm going to bump (necro) this thread because I still don't know how to do this: see above if you can help



Mini_Von -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/14/2014 10:59:03 PM)

I had a similar problem.
I can't post links yet, so here is the end of the link.

forums/tm.asp?m=3563439

My post is titled "[B490] Air Refueling Problem" in the Tech Forum.




mikmykWS -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/15/2014 1:10:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeCK

How do I force a plane to refuel using a nearby tanker instead of returning to the carrier? I tried issuing the command "refuel" and it's mission changed to "maneuvering to refuel" and it's doctrine is set to "air refuel":yes

Yet the plane just flew right by the tanker on its way to the carrier. I needed them to stay airborne!


Hi Mike

If you right click the unit there is a refuel if possible option you can select.

In this case though wondering if you had the right tanker refueling like mix. Remember what the tanker and target aircraft were?

Mike



mikeCK -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/15/2014 2:17:34 AM)

Yes, I was trying to refuel F-14's and F-18s from a KA-6b code "CHEVRON"
I have "use refuel" (or whatever it is) set to "yes" in the doctrine but my planes flew right past the tanker and on back home. I had hit "refuel (if possible)....



ComDev -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/15/2014 8:45:28 AM)

Hm think we also need to add Tanker planning to the strike mission editor... although that will take some time to do hehe.

I'm quite baffled by the fact that the more stuff we add to the sim, the more real-life issues we run into.

To speed things up free to submitt pseudo code, design documentation, technical/operational documentation on tanker ops, etc [8D]

Thanks! [8D]



Dannyp19 -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/15/2014 1:50:29 PM)

Hey Emsoy!

Found this http://www.military-airplanner.com/


Dont know if this is available for civilian use or not. Looked interesting though.[:)]



guanotwozero -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/15/2014 2:09:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Hm think we also need to add Tanker planning to the strike mission editor... although that will take some time to do hehe.

I'm quite baffled by the fact that the more stuff we add to the sim, the more real-life issues we run into.

To speed things up free to submitt pseudo code, design documentation, technical/operational documentation on tanker ops, etc [8D]

Thanks! [8D]

Ah, it's the fractal zoom effect - the more detail you cover, the more uncovered detail you can see. Common problem with software, especially for something that aspires to as much realism as possible. It just means you have to draw limits somewhere.

Happy to contribute ideas from concepts to algorithms, tanker ops or anything else, though we'll probably need a bit of guidance from you and the rest of the dev team to help steer progress in the right direction.

First thing I'd suggest is to create a new forum section for this (Dev Ideas or something), as there will likely be many threads involved.



mikeCK -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/15/2014 4:48:47 PM)

Maybe an option when you right click on a plane (group) that says "use nearest airborne refueler"

couldn't you just double check to see if "refuel if possible" forces the plane to refuel at the closest refueling point whether that's a carrier or an airborne refueling? usually will be the former.



NickD -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/15/2014 10:40:50 PM)

Out of interest, has anyone attempted to replicate the epic tanker operations which the RAF used during the Operation Black Buck Vulcan bomber raids on the Falklands? That would be a test for the game's in flight refuelling functionality! (even the veteran RAF tanker staff had trouble working out how to pull this off).



Maromak -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/15/2014 11:19:53 PM)

Flankerk has a Black Buck scenario on the way.



Beagle -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/16/2014 12:27:45 AM)

Hi Guys,

My concept is the use of a "refuelling base" for aircraft, similar in concept to the home base for aircraft. The default refuelling base would be the home base. Then players can set up a virtual refuelling base that is serviced by tankers via the current mission editor as a "tanker" mission. Players can then select this refuelling base in the same way they select the home base and all bingo calcs will be based on this point. This should be similar to the coding you use now, to help reduce the effort required in the short term.

To make it more advanced in the future you could have it calculate the total rate of fuel consumption of aircraft assigned to the refuelling base, and then give an indication if more tankers need to be assigned or predict when assigned aircraft need to be refuelled by showing a future queue of when aircraft are likely to need refuelling.

Thoughts?



ComDev -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/20/2014 3:03:31 AM)

Thats a ver interesting idea, have added it to our notes. Thanks!



DeltaIV -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/20/2014 11:48:29 AM)

I'm currently also battling with tanker problems in my scenario.

Setup is following:
- Norwegian airforce is trying attack land targets that are on the very edge of combat radius of their F16s
- NATO (which is actually neutral side in my scenario, but with friendly posture towards Norway) operates tanker aircraft halfway between their airbase and intended targets (KC135R)
- F16s cannot reach their targets and return without refueling, but if they refuel, they can strike the targets and return to their home base safely

So my questions are:
1. Can the aircraft refuel from other side's tankers if their posture is friendly ?
2. Can i somehow force the aircraft to refuel when they're on their way to the objective (they are not bingo yet)?



Primarchx -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/20/2014 12:58:41 PM)

I like the 'tanking base' idea, so that I can explicitly connect aircraft to a tanker mission.

I'd also like to see a method that directs an aircraft to refuel immediately. The Refuel (if possible) command doesn't do this unless the a/c is apparently at some unknown-to-me fuel state. I've had flights fly right by a tanker orbit and not refuel, while all the while I'm directing them to.

This becomes a problem on long-range strikes where you want to refuel your aircraft BEFORE they head to their targets but they haven't hit their secret, magic refuel-ready state yet. Instead they head in and somewhere near the target suddenly have to refuel or RTB Bingo.

Perhaps this problem has been fixed in the recent build, but it's one that frustrates me frequently.



Dannyp19 -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/20/2014 1:56:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

I like the 'tanking base' idea, so that I can explicitly connect aircraft to a tanker mission.

I'd also like to see a method that directs an aircraft to refuel immediately. The Refuel (if possible) command doesn't do this unless the a/c is apparently at some unknown-to-me fuel state. I've had flights fly right by a tanker orbit and not refuel, while all the while I'm directing them to.

This becomes a problem on long-range strikes where you want to refuel your aircraft BEFORE they head to their targets but they haven't hit their secret, magic refuel-ready state yet. Instead they head in and somewhere near the target suddenly have to refuel or RTB Bingo.

Perhaps this problem has been fixed in the recent build, but it's one that frustrates me frequently.


I like the "tanker base" idea also.

Ive found that (most of the time) the tankers have to be half way between the AC's base and the destination for them to top off. Also If they are stubborn about refueling I have to make sure there unassigned. Sometimes when they do obey they will break from plotted course, top off, and head right back to the point of the plot where they broke off to refuel.

Ive posted my way of tanking on this thread here. Its worked for me pretty good.http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3567257






mikeCK -> RE: Inflight refueling (3/21/2014 12:20:36 AM)

Home base would be best as long as it didn't try to rearm (when Winchester) at the tanker



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