Enemy at the Gates - Mesmerizing! (Full Version)

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Wild Bill -> Enemy at the Gates - Mesmerizing! (3/6/2001 2:32:00 PM)

I just watched a 30 minute special on "Enemy at the Gates," the story of the siege of Stalingrad, with the inner story of the Russian sniper Vasilli and the German Sniper Koenig as they hunt each other through the rubble of the great city. You will not believe what you see. The special effects seem to exceed Omaha Beach in "Saving Private Ryan." the scenes along the Volga, the strafing, bombing German aircraft, the mad charge through Red Square. You will simply not believe the epic grandeur of this film. I was mesmerized, here at 2:00 AM. So excited, I had to share it. It starts March 16th. You better believe I will be one of the first to see it! I've over 600 war movies in my VHS collection. This will be a must have! A Very Excited Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



königstiger -> (3/6/2001 7:35:00 PM)

just watched the trailer at: www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/enemy_at_the_gates have to see that film!!!



lynchc -> (3/6/2001 7:49:00 PM)

Sounds Great! I will be there. Another epic coming out that promises to be fantastic is Pearl. It comes out Memorial day weekend and has the same effects and grandeur. My DVD collection is bulging with great war films.



Randy Stead -> (3/6/2001 7:58:00 PM)

Just saw the trailer, looks good. I can't recall having seen a good Russian Front movie since Cross of Iron and Stalingrad. [This message has been edited by Randy Stead (edited March 06, 2001).]



lnp4668 -> (3/6/2001 8:39:00 PM)

Sounds like a great idea for a recon tutorial, sniper hunting in the rubble of Stalingrad. (hint WB |-))



Greg McCarty -> (3/6/2001 11:01:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: I just watched a 30 minute special on "Enemy at the Gates," the story of the siege of Stalingrad, with the inner story of the Russian sniper Vasilli and the German Sniper Koenig as they hunt each other through the rubble of the great city. You will not believe what you see. The special effects seem to exceed Omaha Beach in "Saving Private Ryan." the scenes along the Volga, the strafing, bombing German aircraft, the mad charge through Red Square. You will simply not believe the epic grandeur of this film. I was mesmerized, here at 2:00 AM. So excited, I had to share it. It starts March 16th. You better believe I will be one of the first to see it! I've over 600 war movies in my VHS collection. This will be a must have! A Very Excited Wild Bill
Whoa! Just saw the trailer. THIS one is worth your focus! ------------------ Greg. 37 mill AA... can suddenly ruin your day.



rtr -> (3/6/2001 11:54:00 PM)

Hi, The history channel in the UK has just shown an episode of 'suicide missions' about snipers, worth seeing. I don't know if the movie sticks to the reality and if it does wether mainstream movie audiences will buy the 'corny' way in which Koenig was tricked into giving his position away:-) ------------------ Later Rob Reid



murx -> (3/7/2001 12:24:00 AM)

I hope when viewing this movie you keep in mind that it's complete fiction. Germany didn't use snipers with scopes at that time. And even as they introduced them in about 43 they weren't used in considerable numbers due to lack of scopes AFAIK. But on the other hand German troops were trained to a degree against sniper. There was even a small teaching movie for the soldiers. As the group takes cover and tries to scan the area one soldier holds up his helmet on a stick so the sniper thinks there is a soldiers head. As he shoots at the helmet he is giving away his position and gets wasted by MG and mall arms fire... I dont know if that worked but at least that what German soldiers were told/showed. murx



Lars Remmen -> (3/7/2001 1:32:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: I've over 600 war movies in my VHS collection. This will be a must have! A Very Excited Wild Bill
WOW! 600 war movies! Didn't even know that many were made... Let's say the average movie is 1.5 hours in length. They're probably longer but 1.5 is easy to do the math with [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] That equals 900 hours of war movies. That is roughly 5.35 weeks of non-stop war movies. WOW! Sorry about the OT post but I was very impressed. And I don't impress easily! ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



Yogi Yohan -> (3/7/2001 2:06:00 AM)

In Alan Clarckes "Barbarossa" Ch 13 there's an account from a Russian sniper who fought a German "super-sniper" in Stalingrad, namely the head of the sniper school at Zossen, SS-Standartenführer Hans Thorwald. The name of the Russian sniper given the task of taking out Thorwald is not given. In this account, both the German and the Russian use telescopic sights. I would be very surprised if this is not the story behind the film "Enemy at the gates". One wonders why "Koenig" is a better name than "Thorwald" according to Holywood...



Anatoly Chekov -> (3/7/2001 3:34:00 AM)

Snipers - now we're talking. It's a shame that Sp:WAW doesn't model them more effectively. Has anyone read the David Robbin's novel "War of the Rats"? It details the contest between Chief Master Sergeant Vasily Zaitsev and SS Colonel Heinz Thorvald. Anatoly Chekov was one of Zaitsev's recruits. It's a damned good read and doesn't stray from reality too much even though there is an attractive Russian female sniper to keep their scopes polished! Tania Chernova was real enough and had more than a few notches on the butt of her rifle. It's a brilliant book. I can also recommend "Sniper One-On-One" by Adrian Gilbert. I'm amazed by the size of Wild Bill's video collection. According to the European advertising for the Renault Clio "Size Matters!" So I wonder if Wild Bill has come across a film I have been searching for for ages. I must have seen it about 35 years ago. It was a black and white German film with English subtitles. I think it was called "The Bridge". It was set in a town in Germany in 1945 with the Americans advancing. A young German boy who has been trained in the Hitler Youth runs away from his school and tries to stop the Yankees. I remember one vivid moment when an American soldier fires a bazooka and catches his loader with the full back blast. Has anyone out there seen this film? If so how could I obtain a copy?



königstiger -> (3/7/2001 8:02:00 AM)

hi anatoly we´ve watched this film in a history lesson in school. A group of six school friends about 16 year old boys where thrown to the front, where they had to defend a bridge... one was killed by an air attack of a thingle thunderbold, one was killed by an american sniper, one was killed by an german officer and two were killed in action and only one survived the fight... the bridge which they had to defend was attacked by small american unit, and they could destroy one or two sherman tanks. during that fight one old german civilist was hit by the back blast of panzerfaust fired from one of these boys... few minutes later the young buy was hit by tank grenade... the sense of this film was that this bridge was not important at all, and how these young boys were sacrificed for nothing



KG Erwin -> (3/7/2001 8:18:00 AM)

I posted this on Steve Hosfeld's thread, but I'll repeat it here:I just started downloading the trailer for "Enemy At The Gates", and from what little I've seen, this could be something special. IF Hollywood is prepared to revisit the greatest land war of the 20th century, then maybe my dream of seeing Guy Sajer's "The Forgotten Soldier" given a screen adaptation will happen in my lifetime.PS It's unfortunate that the myth of the "sniper duel" is given cinematic reality, BUT these are the movies, not documentaries. I suppose in these days that's the best we can hope for. At least the events of 1942 in Russia are being presented to a Western general public that barely knows of their existence--------------- "Welcome back, my friends, to the show that never ends, we're so glad you could attend, come inside, come inside..." Emerson, Lake & Palmer [This message has been edited by KG Erwin (edited March 06, 2001).]



Wild Bill -> (3/7/2001 9:11:00 AM)

I'm very zealous of this little assortment of warmovies. Now of course I am including from the Revolutionary War through today. It's amazing how many have been done. I have almost two dozen on Vietnam, plus some 40 episodes of Tour of Duty. Korea...over a dozen on Korea. Great films too! And World War II, ah yes, some great and not so great, but all of them are still fun to watch. In fact, I remember as a lad when many of these played in the theaters where I saw them for the first time. Lot of personal memories attached to these. I'm glad to see a good movie on East Front being done, especially Stalingrad! I will make up a list for those who want it, but not in the very near future. Soon. Anyone want it, send me a note with your e-mail address and when it is done, I'll send it out. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



DELTA32 -> (3/7/2001 9:17:00 AM)

Viewing the trailer I see Hollywood is at it's best again...being politically correct ! Harris, who plays the German sniper sent from Berlin was "historically" a Waffen-SS Colonel. Of course Hollywood has portrayed him as a soldier of the German Army ! So, right off the bat...they SNAFU the movie ! Delta 3-2



jerrek -> (3/7/2001 9:33:00 AM)

all this talk of speacil effects is a bit disconcerting as in hollywood good speacil effects and good movie are often independent terms not often associated with each other. (forgive this cycical view from someone who views all modern US movies as rubbish until proven otherwise).



Jeff Norton -> (3/7/2001 10:17:00 AM)

Heard the same thing about Zaitzev and Koenig. A made up fable... Saw the story on the History Channel about Suicide Missions and how it was played up. But, from what I read, there was never any German Officer Sniper. It even sounds odd. Low level German Army officers were generally leading from the front, but is strikes me as funny that a German officer would go 'hunting' in the ruins of Stalingrad. But, fact is stranger than truth... I may be wrong.... Though, it looks like a good movie... Will check it out, since the wife/daughter are away this weekend. Is it released this week? -Jeff



Wild Bill -> (3/7/2001 10:22:00 AM)

All of you are quite right. It is probably more entertainment than history. But then I go to the history channel for history and to the movies for entertainment [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I'm ready to be entertained. Time for a good war flick. To be candid, I've never seen a Hollywood production I felt was 100% accurate as far as history is concerned. But I do love those movies [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



KG Erwin -> (3/7/2001 10:47:00 AM)

Wild Bill, you are right, the Hollywood treatment of history in general has been atrocious, but what IS history but the memory of events as remembered by participants and perceived by witnesses? Braveheart? A great story, some of it did happen. I'll put it this way--if YOU had to recreate the story of your life, wouldn't the desire to present events as they should have been as opposed to what really occurred take precedence? THAT'S how history is written. It's a simple concept, and all historians acknowledge this. Sorry if I am rambling, but any writer trying to recreate a given event, even with the advent of film and video recording, will still get contradictory reports from witnesses to the same event. History is by defintion subjective. It should be taken as such, unless you were there yourself. I've thought about it, but I believe that writers of fiction have a much easier time of it than historical writers. That's another subject, so I'll stop at that.



FWH-Odin -> (3/7/2001 2:24:00 PM)

In one of Time Life's WWII history books, there is some info on the Zaitsev (who used to be a shepherd/hunter) vs Thorwald fight, the info being from the diary of Zaitsev I think. I don't know if all of it is true, but one thing is for sure, it wouldn't do well in a film. Mostly waiting and stalking... and luck. I'm at work now so I can't type the events out, but when I get home I can if anyone wants.



Figmo -> (3/7/2001 9:26:00 PM)

Sounds like a great movie - I'll be there too!! Thanks for the heads up Bill!! Actually, the first book I read about WW2 was very bios - but it was good and got me into reading more - because of that I still like the book. And a great war movie - IMHO - is also a great Anti-war movie, because people sometimes get the idea that war is glory - a great war movie will show the BLood, gore AND guts - then people realize it's not all glory!! Figmo



Fabs -> (3/7/2001 11:31:00 PM)

Is the movie about Stalingrad or is it about the snipers? I've read both "Enemy at the gates" (about Stalingrad) and "War of the rats" (about the snipers). The two stories are virtually identical, bar the name of the German sniper (Koenig in EATG, Thorwald in WOTR). Both books are good, the first one being generally about the Campaign, not just the fighting in and around the City. In the first book the "Snipers" storyline is sketched along many others. In WOTR the focus in on the "Snipers" storyline. From the trailer, I would guess the movie is more about the "Snipers", as it gives a better dramatic focus to Hollywood's annoying tendency to distort and dramatize everything. Even the cast is a little odd: pretty boy Jude Law to portray the Russian master sniper is probably completely mis-cast, but it'll get the girls in. Anyway, seen as Wild Bill gives it a good review I'll change my mind and go see it. After that movie about how the Allies got hold of Ultra I have lost what little faith I had in Hollywood's way to portray historical conflict. ------------------ Fabs [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited March 07, 2001).]



Rhodan -> (3/7/2001 11:53:00 PM)

Did anyone ever read any of the books written by Sven Hassel? He was a Danish bloke that was homeless at the beginning of the war and was caught sleeping in..uhm..in a train I believe. Anyway, he get's caught , he is send to prison ( and german prisons in those days really really were -bad- places to be...I am sure that the name Torgau still sends shivers through some of the vets that are still alive ) and after a truly gruesome period he is offered a 'pardon'..he has to work off his debt to society in a special panzerdivision, made up fully of convicts, ranging from petty criminals to murders. I believe it was either 21 or the 22 Panzerdivision. Those convicts were used as assault troops, always leading the attack with enormous high casualties. Anyway, it gives a fascinating look behind the scenes of the german army and why it was to fail eventually. It also gives a nice point of view on some of the major battles, one of my own favourites being the situations around the battle of Monte Casino and the fighting around the Red October factory. I think they made a movie based on his books once ( and a horrible conversion at that ) called Wheels of Terror. Rho.



Yogi Yohan -> (3/8/2001 12:26:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Rhodan: Did anyone ever read any of the books written by Sven Hassel?
I have read some Sven Hassel books, and I belive that only the first is truly autobioghraphic. In some of the others there are so many mistakes one doubts the man ever served in Hitler's armies. Just to give two examples: *Hassel claims to have used Panzerfaust's during the summer 1941 advance in Russia. *More than once Tigers are described as being equipped with flamethrowers.



Randy Stead -> (3/8/2001 12:26:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rhodan: [B]Did anyone ever read any of the books written by Sven Hassel? I read some of his books when I was a teenager and found them to be like pulp fiction. He seemed to revel in describing the basest of human behaviour. An example being from one of his books where he goes into great detail describing the Germans executing Russian partisans by flamethrowers aimed at the genitals. Nasty stuff.



Fabs -> (3/8/2001 1:41:00 AM)

Sven Hassel's books were written to shock and sensationalize war. I read them as a teen-ager, and enjoyed them for what they were. I was immature and some of the blackest stuff in them fascinated me in a morbid way. I haven't come across one for 30 years now, and i wonder whether I would still find them as enthralling as I did then. Having said all this, I suspect that pretty awful stuff did go on on the Eastern Front, where a titanic struggle between two power systems, two ideologies and two races was being played out. ------------------ Fabs



Lars Remmen -> (3/8/2001 2:21:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Rhodan: Did anyone ever read any of the books written by Sven Hassel? He was a Danish bloke that was homeless at the beginning of the war and was caught sleeping in..uhm..in a train I believe. Anyway, he get's caught , he is send to prison ( and german prisons in those days really really were -bad- places to be...I am sure that the name Torgau still sends shivers through some of the vets that are still alive ) and after a truly gruesome period he is offered a 'pardon'..he has to work off his debt to society in a special panzerdivision, made up fully of convicts, ranging from petty criminals to murders. I believe it was either 21 or the 22 Panzerdivision. Those convicts were used as assault troops, always leading the attack with enormous high casualties. Anyway, it gives a fascinating look behind the scenes of the german army and why it was to fail eventually. It also gives a nice point of view on some of the major battles, one of my own favourites being the situations around the battle of Monte Casino and the fighting around the Red October factory. I think they made a movie based on his books once ( and a horrible conversion at that ) called Wheels of Terror. Rho.
I have a book about Hassel written by a fellow who has written about Freikorps Danmark and other Danes in action on the eastern front. Compare the first book hassel wrote to Remarque's 'All quiet on the western front'. You'll see that he got some inspiration from that book. Also, a Dane who served on the eastern front was sentenced to prison about 10 years after the war when he told what he'd been doing during his service. Hassel hasn't been to prison because his books are 99.9% fictional. ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



Rhodan -> (3/8/2001 3:19:00 AM)

Well smack on my fingers [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] although I never took them to be fully true to life, I always did have the feeling that substantial parts were at least partially based on what he witnessed..but I do feel I need to point out a few things though: 1. His story, if it is indeed true (to whatever degree) points out that he did not voluntarily joined the german armed forces. He was pressed into it and next send of to locations that do not really invite to desertion. ( the russians had a habbit of looking at the color of a uniform first , then shooting, then asking, unfortunately for the tankers they shared the same color uniform with SS troops) 2. Atrocities...I've been a professional soldier for 8 years, been to places and had the misfortune to witness things that long ago took away any ideals and dreams I might have had regarding my fellow human beings. Any former UN in the region of the Vitez pocket will remember the burning of the little village of Amichi (spelling?) done by regular forces of one of the warring factions...after they made sure every citizen was locked up in their basement..since most of the men in that village were either dead or gone to war, that meant that roughly 400 women, senior citizens, babies and toddlers were burned alive. There was an investigation not too long ago about belgian paracommandos swinging kids back and forth above a fire. Canadian soldiers strangling german POW's with barbed wire during WWII, soviet troops butchering enormous amounts of polish people in a large forest, right after the fall of Poland. etc etc etc War is a brutal business that has a habbit of bringing out the worst in a large group of people, and that is/was something Mr Hassel managed to capture quite realistically and while I agree that it might be perceived as sensationalism ( then again the same would apply for CNN or any other news network that has to show the same bloody scenes over and over again) I'd rather take it as a dead serious warning about the ugly nature of the beast we call war and what it does with the people involved. Rho



Fabs -> (3/8/2001 3:49:00 AM)

The 21st Panzer Division was certainly not made up of convicts, and did not fight in Russia in 1941, 1942, 1943 or 1944. It was one of Rommel's Afrikakorps divisions, and fought agains the Allies in north Africam Italy and Normandy. It never fought in Russia, and fought on the Eastern Front only at the end of the war, where its bulk was made prisoner by the Russians. I don't know much about the 22nd Panzer Division. Convicts and other such personnell tended to fight in penal battaions. These were infantry units mostly, and were given the rottenest jobs and poor equipment. This business of a Panzer Division made up entirely of convicts and given the most dangerous jobs is pure fiction, as are most of Sven Hassel's stories. He can't have served in Cassino, as the line there was held by Fallschirmjaeger and elements of two Panzer-grenadier Divisions. No Panzer Division took part in the battle of Cassino, as the terrain was totally unsuitable. He just seized on popular episodes of the war and inserted his bunch of misfits into it, to get a good war pot-boiler for naive little boys like me to feast on. They did make good reading, I'm almost ashamed to admit. The movie sucked. ------------------ Fabs



Charles22 -> (3/8/2001 4:12:00 AM)

I recall reading somewhere, I believe a website recently that an expert sniper for the Germans, NEVER used a scope, so I wouldn't equate non-presence of scopes to there being no sipers. He said something about that the scope reflecting to the enemy was a dead giveaway, and he knew snipers that were spotted and killed that way.



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