[FIXED DB v440] speed of MGM-140 (Full Version)

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mrfeizhu -> [FIXED DB v440] speed of MGM-140 (12/12/2013 6:53:26 AM)

The speed of the MGM-140 Army Tactical Missile only fly's at subsonic speeds. It should fly faster, In the data base its speed is listed as 18,500 feet a second that will give make the missile fly at over 12,000 mph. I am not breaking them or fussing over minutia but in the game ( and life) its nice to be able to take out targets very fast with a high success rate.



mrfeizhu -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/12/2013 7:47:00 AM)

[:-]I should learn how to read, the speed listed is 18,500 a minute for the climb rate (big difference) , the speed is still to slow for that type of missile, but i searched and could not find the speed on the web. But the booster of the missile was used to propel the X-51 WaveRider to mach 4.5 before its own engine cut in. The V-2 had a speend of 3,500 MPH.



Primarchx -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/12/2013 1:07:22 PM)

MLRS guided weapons go 450kts, which seems low.



Dimitris -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/12/2013 1:13:28 PM)

So what is the average ground-track speed of the MGM-140 ? Sources, anyone?



navwarcol -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/12/2013 6:45:24 PM)

Pg 62 of this (very excellent) work would indicate by the math a speed of 2000kts
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA451930



ComDev -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/12/2013 7:55:32 PM)

Thanks guys, will look into this [8D]



bsq -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/13/2013 8:25:52 PM)

Solid fuel modern rocket - quasi-ballistic missile class of weapon?

Even 2000kts is too slow - the missile has an apogee at max range shot of 50 km. 5000 - 6000 kts is nearer the mark...

Try looking at how you modelled the 9K720 and you will likely be nearer the mark, because it is crazy that an SA-3 can shoot one of these down in the terminal phase (2 SAM's fired, 2nd one hit and destroyed my ATACMs - not happy with that modelling).

I think you need to look at the MLRS all round, because M30's with a speed of 450 kts, are not going to be much use in the Counter Fire role. The idea is that the rockets take out the OpFor battery BEFORE it can fire many more rounds.



navwarcol -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/13/2013 9:13:31 PM)

I think the issue there, bsq, may be that perhaps SAMs should only be able to fire at this type of weapon, (or at JDAM from another thread) if they are actually targeting the SAM launcher. The window of engagement opportunity would seem to be too small to hit this type of target as a "crossing target".



bsq -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/13/2013 9:15:20 PM)

1st and 2nd gen SAMs should have no capability against ballistic targets at all.



navwarcol -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/13/2013 9:21:48 PM)

+1... but I am not really sure it can be broken down in that manner in the game.



bsq -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/13/2013 9:26:27 PM)

Put them outside of the speed bracket of these systems. If ATACMS flew at high Mach, as I think it should, then SA-2 through 8 wouldn't be in with a chance because they are modelled to intercept slower targets



Apocal -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/14/2013 3:55:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq
I think you need to look at the MLRS all round, because M30's with a speed of 450 kts, are not going to be much use in the Counter Fire role. The idea is that the rockets take out the OpFor battery BEFORE it can fire many more rounds.


Max time of flight on an M30 rocket is something only slight north of a minute. The idea was that a full battalion shoot of MLRS - 27 launchers, each with 12 rockets - would blanket such a large area the firing battery would be caught somewhere in the impact area, regardless of if they stayed or tried to displace.



bsq -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/14/2013 4:16:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocal


quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq
I think you need to look at the MLRS all round, because M30's with a speed of 450 kts, are not going to be much use in the Counter Fire role. The idea is that the rockets take out the OpFor battery BEFORE it can fire many more rounds.


Max time of flight on an M30 rocket is something only slight north of a minute. The idea was that a full battalion shoot of MLRS - 27 launchers, each with 12 rockets - would blanket such a large area the firing battery would be caught somewhere in the impact area, regardless of if they stayed or tried to displace.



At 6.67 nm/min, it would take almost 5 mins to max range... Each MLRS can take out 1 square km - you could run out of the grid square in the time the M30 is modelled here [;)]



ComDev -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/14/2013 6:26:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

Solid fuel modern rocket - quasi-ballistic missile class of weapon?

Even 2000kts is too slow - the missile has an apogee at max range shot of 50 km. 5000 - 6000 kts is nearer the mark...


Thanks for your input guys.

But honestly think 5000-6000kt is too much. The ATACMs is a 1600kg weapon, actually not too far from the RIM-8 Talos and even the SA-10 series. Doubt you could make the Talso go 5000-6000kt, as there simply is not enough energy in the fuel to make it go that fast?



bsq -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/15/2013 7:42:26 PM)

I did the maths based on the paper that was referred to, so if that is looking at 100nm and yields a ground speed of 1998 kts, the the average air speed (including that up to apogee, then the descent to impact) is almost 2400kts - and thats the average. The speed as it descends will be increasing so by the time it reaches the actual altitude at which SAM's can track and try to intercept it if capable, it should be travelling in excess of 3000kts.

Of course, if the simulation models ground speed, rather than the actual speed, then stopping SAMs from intercepting it may be an issue in the game and something that would not happen IRL.




mrfeizhu -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/16/2013 10:16:32 AM)

3000 or even 2000 is better than a subsonic speed.



navwarcol -> RE: speed of MGM-140 (12/16/2013 2:51:22 PM)

Good point bsq!! I did not include that in my hasty calculation above, but that should be about right.
In reality it should be incredibly difficult to get a hit on these, for a SAM system, due to so many things, their ballistic path, their cross section, etc.
quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

I did the maths based on the paper that was referred to, so if that is looking at 100nm and yields a ground speed of 1998 kts, the the average air speed (including that up to apogee, then the descent to impact) is almost 2400kts - and thats the average. The speed as it descends will be increasing so by the time it reaches the actual altitude at which SAM's can track and try to intercept it if capable, it should be travelling in excess of 3000kts.

Of course, if the simulation models ground speed, rather than the actual speed, then stopping SAMs from intercepting it may be an issue in the game and something that would not happen IRL.






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