Custom Designs Overpowered? (Full Version)

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Lightbane -> Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/12/2013 1:11:40 PM)

I've noticed that just pushing your ship and base designs to their maximum size limit they just completely outclass anything the AI has out because the default designs are just inferior to your custom made ones. Is there anything i'm missing? Can I make the AI use these more superior designs so its not like i'm just stepping on a bug?



Deathball -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/12/2013 2:33:15 PM)

You can create optimized designs for all the races and make the AI use them.



Plant -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/12/2013 3:17:40 PM)

In a word: No.

What are these optimized designs Deathball? Did they ever work? You made a thread about it before I remember, but you gave the same lack of information as now.

You can make custom Design Templates in a folder somwhere, but only one ship per type, and they can't make it if it is too big and they stay with that one design till the end of time.

How the AI appear to work is this: They try to make a proportion of the ships types. Each of the ship type has a fixed number of weapons and shields. They might add certain tech when it appears such as Fleet targetting System for certain ship type.



Deathball -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/12/2013 5:28:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plant

What are these optimized designs Deathball? Did they ever work? You made a thread about it before I remember, but you gave the same lack of information as now.


Its not my fault if you don't read patch notes, or other people's posts for that matter, because I already explained both optimized designs as well as templates to you in that thread you mentioned. I also said in that thread that I have experienced no issues with AI empires running optimized designs.



Lightbane -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/12/2013 11:37:20 PM)

hmm yeah but that still means you can customize designs that are 'sub-optimal' but still completely squash these so called optimal designs. I have a Capital ship with 70 lasers, 10 tractor beams and 70 shields and I have three fleets with them included including my troop ships that have 30 troop compartments. They just wash over anything with limited opposition because the AI only use the default designs which have no where near as much firepower even if they have same or better weapons then me.



Darkspire -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/13/2013 12:45:15 AM)

quote:

I have a Capital ship with 70 lasers, 10 tractor beams and 70 shields


Overkill much ?? [:D]

Darkspire



solops -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/13/2013 1:32:21 AM)

Unless the AI ship design algorithm can be improved, Erik might need to make player ship designs available in-game to the AI factions.



Icemania -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/13/2013 3:58:27 AM)

Yeah per many threads in the forum this part of the game is massively unbalanced. And when combined with the lack of AI focus on construction size research, which should be a priority in every game, particularly early game ...



Darkspire -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/13/2013 4:45:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Yeah per many threads in the forum this part of the game is massively unbalanced. And when combined with the lack of AI focus on construction size research, which should be a priority in every game, particularly early game ...



I keep meaning to try out the optimized designs, someone mentioned they still work, I had some serious fun with the AI giving them the designs to work from, 2 variations per class per tech level, I scrapped it at about 1500+ designs when I started on Shadows because of the design templates, they just seem more fiddly to create as well. Just been busy of late but the templates have been on the top of my list of things to investigate for months, I can write them but have never really played with them, just create them from a base template and customize for the race and policy files.

Darkspire



Deathball -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/13/2013 6:36:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: solops

Unless the AI ship design algorithm can be improved, Erik might need to make player ship designs available in-game to the AI factions.


Thats literally what optimized designs are. The player creates a set of ships and saves it to the /designs/whateverRaceYouMadeShipsFor folder. Since Shadows you need to untick those ship designs in the policy file too. When you start a new game the AI will only use the designs from that folder.



Plant -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/13/2013 5:46:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deathball


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plant

What are these optimized designs Deathball? Did they ever work? You made a thread about it before I remember, but you gave the same lack of information as now.


Its not my fault if you don't read patch notes, or other people's posts for that matter, because I already explained both optimized designs as well as templates to you in that thread you mentioned. I also said in that thread that I have experienced no issues with AI empires running optimized designs.

Deathball's customary lack of information, here and in any other thread lol.

Edit: There are no /designs/ folder last time I looked, only one for design templates, which are not optimised designs.



Darkspire -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/13/2013 7:29:10 PM)

quote:

Edit: There are no /designs/ folder last time I looked, only one for design templates, which are not optimised designs.


Have a look in the Legends modding guide, they were a much better way of doing designs, you just needed to have a fairly good understanding of the game to use them.

Darkspire



Lightbane -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/13/2013 11:20:28 PM)

I know there is a trigger that affects the ability of fleet performance because when I have long range scanners I can usually see my allies at war and see how they do. One time I saw a fleet that was double size of the enemy and they just fell apart even though they were more advanced.



Deathball -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/14/2013 11:52:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plant

Deathball's customary lack of information, here and in any other thread lol.

Edit: There are no /designs/ folder last time I looked, only one for design templates, which are not optimised designs.


Assuming someone knows they can create new folders in Windows is not lack of information. But whatever, I'm done talking to you.



Plant -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/14/2013 3:31:08 PM)

Yes Deathball, it sounds like you are talking out of your hat.
I took a look at the legends guide Darkspire, but there doesn't seem to be anything on optimised designs. Could you point out the section for me, please?



Darkspire -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/14/2013 5:45:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plant

Yes Deathball, it sounds like you are talking out of your hat.
I took a look at the legends guide Darkspire, but there doesn't seem to be anything on optimised designs. Could you point out the section for me, please?


My bad, I just presumed it was in the modding guide, I have not read it for a while.

Here are the details, the optimized designs were introduced in Legends .16

Darkspire

quote:


Pre-loaded Optimized Designs

Added new feature that allows usage of pre-made custom ship and base
designs loaded per race from folders at game startup:
New designs subfolder under main game folder can contain
subfolders for each race containing saved design files, e.g.
"C:\Matrix Games\Distant Worlds\designs\human\"
These design folders are also used by any themes/mods (i.e. you
can create a designs subfolder cointaining race subfolders in a
theme)
These designs are loaded for each race at game startup and are
used as optimized designs for each empire
These optimized designs are used whenever an empire has all the
required tech and is within current construction size limits. These
optimized designs are always preferred over all other designs,
unless made obsolete
If multiple optimized designs for a single subrole can be built (e.g.
multiple optimized destroyer designs), then the most advanced
design will be preferred
Optimized designs also guide AI research decisions: preference
will be given to research projects with components required by the
optimized designs

Because of the above, you should make custom designs that use the racespecific
tech and tech focuses (from Empire Policy) for the race, otherwise
there will be many required research paths, and research will be diluted, e.g.
Boskara designs should utilize Shaktur Firestorm torpedoes (race-specific
tech), and Phasers (Empire Policy tech focus)



adecoy95 -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/15/2013 5:42:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lightbane

hmm yeah but that still means you can customize designs that are 'sub-optimal' but still completely squash these so called optimal designs. I have a Capital ship with 70 lasers, 10 tractor beams and 70 shields and I have three fleets with them included including my troop ships that have 30 troop compartments. They just wash over anything with limited opposition because the AI only use the default designs which have no where near as much firepower even if they have same or better weapons then me.


thats not a design problem, thats an economic problem, honestly

the ai is doing the best it can with what little money they get from maximium taxation of fledgling planets they should instead have grown 50 years ago. granted its been a few patches since i have played so this could have changed.



Plant -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/17/2013 2:47:33 PM)

Mmmm yes Darkspire, but that doesn't tell me how I would go ahead and create and use these optimised designs. I vagely remember one of the expansion had it, but I never used it and the current expansion I am using, and I presume you are using is Shadows.

It's not an economic problem adecoy95. You can give the AI all the money it can can ever spend, and it will still make small ships. It has both fixed ship designs which don't seem to grow any larger (though once I saw a Size 1600 Ackdarian Capital ship so that may not be entirely accurate), and produces ship roles in certain percentages, so it will still produce say 22% of it's ships as escort ships.



Darkspire -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/17/2013 4:04:48 PM)

quote:

Mmmm yes Darkspire, but that doesn't tell me how I would go ahead and create and use these optimised designs.


You did not ask that, you asked what they were and then in your usual diplomatic manner state you required proof. It explains 99% of what you need to do in section I posted, the only thing missing is explaining that they are manually created designs, you save the designs to your theme in the designs folder for the race. I am sure that you are can work out how many designs are needed for each class per tech level, so I will not elaborate.

Darkspire



Plant -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/19/2013 2:14:48 PM)

Darkspire why are you constantly interpreting inoffensive questions into a hostile manner?

You appear to have tried to use optimised designs, so of course I will be asking you how to use it. I want to know if it can be used in Shadows, since all the information you have given are for Legends, though from what I can tell it takes weeks just to fill out designs for all the races.



Darkspire -> RE: Custom Designs Overpowered? (12/19/2013 3:58:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plant

Darkspire why are you constantly interpreting inoffensive questions into a hostile manner?

You appear to have tried to use optimised designs, so of course I will be asking you how to use it. I want to know if it can be used in Shadows, since all the information you have given are for Legends, though from what I can tell it takes weeks just to fill out designs for all the races.


Not really [:)]

You just have a somewhat strange way of wording things in that they come off spiky. I am always happy to help, even if it means an hour and half+ to write a reply to a post, which I have done on numerous occasions. I have no idea if they still work in Shadows, I am a tad busy on current DW projects to have the time to dig through my draw of IDE drives and hook them up to the external drive type conversion port dohickey to find the data and designs.
In all honesty you can do a complete race set in about 20-25 mins or less if you know the tech tree and components. I will see if I can find out there current status as regards whether that are still viable as they are better, harder to create properly due to the in depth experience / knowledge needed but so much better to use in game than these DesignTemplates, You only have to write a set for a race and then start the race at tech level 7 to see what a mess that the AI makes of them.

Darkspire



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