Australia Day !!! (Full Version)

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Admiral_Arctic -> Australia Day !!! (1/27/2003 12:20:49 AM)

Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free;
We've golden soil and wealth for toil.
Our home is girt by sea;
Our land abounds in Nature's gifts
Of beauty rich and rare;
In history's page, let every stage
Advance Australia fair!
In joyful strains then let us sing,
"Advance Australia fair!"

Beneath our radiant Southern Cross,
We'll toil with hearts and hands;
To make this Commonwealth of ours
Renowned of all the lands;
For those who've come across the seas
We've boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To advance Australia fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing
"Advance Australia fair!"




Ron Saueracker -> "For those who've come across the seas, we've boundless plains to share" (1/27/2003 1:53:58 AM)

hmmm...from what I've heard of Australian history the last fifty years or so, certain immigration laws severely limited the intent of the quotation noted. In fact, I read somewhere that the Australian Dept. of Immigration was (is?) in a very uncomfortable position as the fruits of R & D blossomed in the form of surface hugging radar (uses the conductivity of water to carry OVER the horizon, not limited by line of sight) and is very sensitive (can pick up variations in sea states like an oil slick) but has somewhat compromised Stealth technology...all to keep boat people from Timor from entering the country via barren shores.:D

No offense intended, just thought this kinda funny.;)




Yamamoto -> (1/27/2003 3:42:01 AM)

Every country has a right to protect their borders.

Yamamoto




Ron Saueracker -> (1/27/2003 3:53:38 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yamamoto
[B]Every country has a right to protect their borders.

Yamamoto [/B][/QUOTE]

I wasn't disputing that right in the least. Canada could use a few anti politically correct politician warheads as well, seeing as we presently deny access to hard working immigrants and welcome teet sucking refugees (the majority of which really are not in need but come for the free ride). Time to force laser surgery on the myopic.;)


"Well, Captain Tangent, shall we go bend another thread in the wrong direction?"

"Right you are, Punter!"

:D




PzB74 -> (1/27/2003 4:15:14 AM)

I'm actually thinking about taking my major in Sydney.
Don't think I can get much farther away than from here to there ;)

So what do you say home boys, is it a place to recommend for a frozen Viking from the far north?




pasternakski -> Re: Australia Day !!! (1/27/2003 4:32:42 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral_Arctic
[B]Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free;
We've golden soil and wealth for toil.
Our home is girt by sea;
Our land abounds in Nature's gifts
Of beauty rich and rare;
In history's page, let every stage
Advance Australia fair!
In joyful strains then let us sing,
"Advance Australia fair!"

Beneath our radiant Southern Cross,
We'll toil with hearts and hands;
To make this Commonwealth of ours
Renowned of all the lands;
For those who've come across the seas
We've boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To advance Australia fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing
"Advance Australia fair!" [/B][/QUOTE]

Do you know "Inna Gadda da Vida?"




Raverdave -> (1/27/2003 5:32:44 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PzB
[B]I'm actually thinking about taking my major in Sydney.
Don't think I can get much farther away than from here to there ;)

So what do you say home boys, is it a place to recommend for a frozen Viking from the far north? [/B][/QUOTE]

If you can cope with the hardships of full-strength beers, long hot summers, winters without snow and women whom love anything foreign and a moneytary exchange rate that favours anything Eruo then yes I guess so. But be warned.........once you get here you will not want to return home.




SoulBlazer -> (1/27/2003 7:26:09 AM)

No snow? Give up my skiing? Dude, that's why I live in New England! :D




Drongo -> (1/27/2003 8:04:38 AM)

Posted by PzB
[QUOTE]So what do you say home boys, is it a place to recommend for a frozen Viking from the far north?[/QUOTE]

Ask Piiska, he keeps coming back.

Posted by Ron Saueracker.
[QUOTE]hmmm...from what I've heard of Australian history the last fifty years or so, certain immigration laws severely limited the intent of the quotation noted. In fact, I read somewhere that the Australian Dept. of Immigration was (is?) in a very uncomfortable position as the fruits of R & D blossomed in the form of surface hugging radar (uses the conductivity of water to carry OVER the horizon, not limited by line of sight) and is very sensitive (can pick up variations in sea states like an oil slick) but has somewhat compromised Stealth technology...all to keep boat people from Timor from entering the country via barren shores.[/QUOTE]

Are you pissing on our parade? Naughty Canadian!

Have you been passing the time in the dunny by reading left-wing booklets?

Australia's policy on 'legal' immigrants is quite open by world standards. It's the refugee immigration program that gets all the attention in the press. A certain % of places are set aside for refugees who are identified through the UN's refugee process as genuine. Unfortunately, people claiming to be refugees (rightly or wrongly) were by-passing the whole process by paying people smuggling networks to get them to Indonesia where poor, local fisherman would carry them across to Australia and dump them on our coasts. Once here, they made use of the quota system to claim refugee status.

As they normally destroyed all their identification prior to arrival, we often had no idea who they really were. We are finding a lot of situations like Afganis who turn out to be Pakistanis (and therefore, no legitimate refugee claim). The places they took meant those refugees in UN camps overseas had little chance of getting here through the normal processes.

The whole "people smuggling" process is what Australia wanted to be discouraged. It's unfair to the genuine refugees who may miss out on a place because others have the money to buy passage to Australia. It's also dangerous. Many of the boats used are not seaworthy and often the worst are chosen as the owners know they will be impounded when they get here. 400 refugees were drowned in 2001 when one of these boats sank enroute to Australia. Of course, we got blamed for that as well.

Indonesia, where the bulk of the boats come from, has shown very little inclination to stop whats going on.

Now having proven we're all innocent and whiter than white over here :p , I'll try to clarify the capabilities of "the surface hugging radar".

I assume you're referring to the Jindalee (JOTR) radar system, since it is the only major radar system that we have R&D'd down here in the last 30 years. It's only now becoming fully operational.
It was first conceived in the 70's as a means of giving Australia an enhanced surveillance capability to our North (where the bad people live). It's prime role is (and always was) as a defence asset. You normally don't blow over 2 billion dollars just to stop some refugee boats turning up each year (a patrol boat with a 40mm pop-gun normally does the trick).

Jindalee transmits 20 kw signals and bounces the radar waves off the Ionosphere, giving it a semi look-down capability out to ranges of about 3000 km. It is supposed to be good enough to measure ocean wave heights and wind direction. Don't know how it could be considered "surface hugging" unless someone decided that since Australia is upside-down, our sky is your surface.

I don't think the Dept of Immigration would be feeling that uncomfortable with having the Jindalee on-board.

The changes that were made to the system (to aid in the detection of illegal, people smuggling vessels) was primarily just a change to the system's software so that it could better intergrate with that of Customs and Immigration. It already would have been tracking these ships as part of its surveillance role, as would Australia's Orions and surface warships.

You moose-shaggers should know better than to try critiquing Australia on it national day (any other day's fine, though).

If you ever get down here (assuming they let you in), we'll try to make you feel at home by strapping antlers to our sheep. I know you guys feel more comfortable when you have something to hang on to.




CapAndGown -> (1/27/2003 8:21:28 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drongo
[B]It was first conceived in the 70's as a means of giving Australia an enhanced surveillance capability to our North (where the bad people live). [/B][/QUOTE]

This must mean that everybody except New Zealanders are "bad people". :p




pasternakski -> (1/27/2003 8:55:05 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cap_and_gown
[B]This must mean that everybody except New Zealanders are "bad people". :p [/B][/QUOTE]

Are you suggesting that this is incorrect?




Cap Mandrake -> Jindalee Over-the-Horizon Radar (1/27/2003 9:04:15 AM)

I did a web search [url]www.boatpeopleinterantional.com[/url] and found some actual target icons from the CRT dispaly of the new version of the Jindalee Over-the-Horizon Civil Defense and Human Flotsam Interdiction Radar.


:mad: ..........126 "undocumented" migrants with bogus claims of persecution in an 28 ft leaky Dhow with a 1.5 HP outboard motor


:D ............Hong Kong entrepeneur with 23 m$ bank account in a 126 ft yacht and twin 1200 HP diesels fleeing oppressive Chicom regulations


:eek: .......126 ft incoming North Korean ICBM




aoffen -> (1/27/2003 5:05:51 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cap_and_gown
[B]This must mean that everybody except New Zealanders are "bad people". :p [/B][/QUOTE]

NO....They are bad too.




Drongo -> Drongo's foreign policy speech (1/27/2003 7:09:09 PM)

Aussie good!:) World bad! :mad:




SoulBlazer -> (1/28/2003 3:50:07 AM)

Oh, to live in the far south where life is simple and there's a clear black and white. :D




Ron Saueracker -> Ahem... (1/28/2003 4:34:48 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drongo
[B]Posted by PzB


Ask Piiska, he keeps coming back.

Posted by Ron Saueracker.


Are you pissing on our parade? Naughty Canadian!

Have you been passing the time in the dunny by reading left-wing booklets?

Australia's policy on 'legal' immigrants is quite open by world standards. It's the refugee immigration program that gets all the attention in the press. A certain % of places are set aside for refugees who are identified through the UN's refugee process as genuine. Unfortunately, people claiming to be refugees (rightly or wrongly) were by-passing the whole process by paying people smuggling networks to get them to Indonesia where poor, local fisherman would carry them across to Australia and dump them on our coasts. Once here, they made use of the quota system to claim refugee status.

As they normally destroyed all their identification prior to arrival, we often had no idea who they really were. We are finding a lot of situations like Afganis who turn out to be Pakistanis (and therefore, no legitimate refugee claim). The places they took meant those refugees in UN camps overseas had little chance of getting here through the normal processes.

The whole "people smuggling" process is what Australia wanted to be discouraged. It's unfair to the genuine refugees who may miss out on a place because others have the money to buy passage to Australia. It's also dangerous. Many of the boats used are not seaworthy and often the worst are chosen as the owners know they will be impounded when they get here. 400 refugees were drowned in 2001 when one of these boats sank enroute to Australia. Of course, we got blamed for that as well.

Indonesia, where the bulk of the boats come from, has shown very little inclination to stop whats going on.

Now having proven we're all innocent and whiter than white over here :p , I'll try to clarify the capabilities of "the surface hugging radar".

I assume you're referring to the Jindalee (JOTR) radar system, since it is the only major radar system that we have R&D'd down here in the last 30 years. It's only now becoming fully operational.
It was first conceived in the 70's as a means of giving Australia an enhanced surveillance capability to our North (where the bad people live). It's prime role is (and always was) as a defence asset. You normally don't blow over 2 billion dollars just to stop some refugee boats turning up each year (a patrol boat with a 40mm pop-gun normally does the trick).

Jindalee transmits 20 kw signals and bounces the radar waves off the Ionosphere, giving it a semi look-down capability out to ranges of about 3000 km. It is supposed to be good enough to measure ocean wave heights and wind direction. Don't know how it could be considered "surface hugging" unless someone decided that since Australia is upside-down, our sky is your surface.

I don't think the Dept of Immigration would be feeling that uncomfortable with having the Jindalee on-board.

The changes that were made to the system (to aid in the detection of illegal, people smuggling vessels) was primarily just a change to the system's software so that it could better intergrate with that of Customs and Immigration. It already would have been tracking these ships as part of its surveillance role, as would Australia's Orions and surface warships.

You moose-shaggers should know better than to try critiquing Australia on it national day (any other day's fine, though).

If you ever get down here (assuming they let you in), we'll try to make you feel at home by strapping antlers to our sheep. I know you guys feel more comfortable when you have something to hang on to. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'll have you know I've never shagged a moose.:D A Kiwi told me about the radar net...but I do read in the thunderbox. Great post, Drongo.:D




Raverdave -> (1/28/2003 1:10:51 PM)

Well [I]thats[/I] your problem! You [B]listened[/B] to a Kiwi !;)




bradfordkay -> (1/28/2003 1:21:22 PM)

BTW, I think that Jindalee is considered a "surface hugging" radar BECAUSE of its look-down capability. It is more likely to pick up surface hugging missiles than standard surface based search radars.




Raverdave -> Over The Horizon (1/28/2003 1:44:41 PM)

JORN assures early warning for Australia
29 February 2000

By Michael Sinclair-Jones
Introduction

Australia is using a sophisticated new radar network that can detect stealth bombers, curb illegal immigration and spy on neighbouring nations from at least 3000 kilometres away. The $A1.8 billion Jindalee Operational Radar Network (JORN) has taken more than 30 years to complete but is now undergoing final trials.

JORN is designed to monitor air and sea movements across 37,000km of largely unprotected coastline and 9 million square kilometres of ocean. It is being used to cast a security shield across Australia's remote northern approaches without the high cost of maintaining constant maritime and air patrols.

Operational Use

Jindalee over-the-horizon radar was used to track military aircraft landing and taking off from Dili Airport, in East Timor, on 20 September 1999, when Australia-led Interfet forces began securing the former Indonesian province from militia violence. Australian Hercules C130 transports were detected from 1500 kilometres away by a 6 kilometres-long radar array at Longreach (Queensland), and at a similar site at Alice Springs (Northern Territory).

Aircraft images were displayed on radar consoles in Adelaide and Melbourne, 2600 kilometres from the action. Royal Australian Air Force commanders said the radar was accurate enough to show aircraft turning on their landing approach to Dili Airport.

[img]http://defence-data.com/storypic/scanrange.jpg[/img]


Radar 2 (blue arc) is located at Laverton
IRSU (pink arc) is the Jindalee Alice Springs Facility
Radar 1 (yellow arc) is located at Longreach
The new radar has also been used to track illegal immigrants approaching Australia by boat through the region's largely unguarded northern waters. Although designed primarily for air detection, JORN was reconfigured last year at Australian Government request to scan for marine intruders. More than 500 illegal immigrants have been arrested and detained in recent weeks, largely as a result of JORN intelligence passed to civilian customs authorities. JORN can also measure wave height and wind direction for meteorological reports. [img]http://defence-data.com/storypic/sunset2.jpg[/img]

Jindalee radar at Longreach, Alice Springs and Laverton (Western Australia) enables Australian military commanders to observe all air and sea activity north of Australia to distances of at least 3000 kilometers. This takes in all of Java, Irian Jaya, Papua New Guinea and the Solomon Islands, and halfway across the Indian Ocean.

JORN underpins Australian long-term military defence planning based on repelling an invader that attacks southwards through the Indonesian Islands, as did Japan in World War 2.

RAAF Group Captain Greg Hockings, who heads the new Jindalee Operational Radar Network, describes Jindalee as a "tripwire" in Australia's northern surveillance system.
[img]http://defence-data.com/storypic/poles.jpg[/img]

JORN project manager Gordon McElroy, who previously directed Lockheed Martin's US battlefield defence programs, says of JORN: "There is none like it anywhere on the planet."

The JORN System

Lockheed Martin is the major partner in an Australian joint venture company, RLM Systems, which took over the project from the Australian Government's partly privatised telecommunications company, Telstra, in 1997. RLM performed a rescue operation after Telstra reported a $609 million loss on the project and could not guarantee a delivery date.

JORN uses two high frequency radio transmitters located 2300 kilometres apart, at Longreach and Laverton. The transmitter arrays are about one kilometre long and can generate a 20 kilowatt signal, which is stronger than most radio station signals.

The signal is said to be strong enough to blow up nearby re-fuelling depots, which are equipped with metal "faraday" shields to stop accidental sparks.

Signals are aimed at the ionosphere, where the beam is reflected over the horizon to targets up to 3000km away. A weak return signal from over the horizon is captured by a highly sensitive receiver that uses advanced software to separate background "clutter" from selected targets.

The receivers consist of two "arms", each 3.4 kilometers long, and each site consists of 960 individual antenna masts that must not be more than 10mm out of line along the whole length.

Transmitter and receiver sites near Longreach and Laverton are located about 100km apart to prevent electronic interference. The system is linked to 17 beacon stations across northern Australia, which are used to measure ionospheric conditions and calibrate transmissions from Longreach and Laverton.

The RAAF admits the system can operate well beyond its "unclassified" range of 3000 kilometres when radar signals become trapped inside the ionosphere and bounce twice before emerging over the horizon. However, unofficial reports that JORN can see as far as Singapore Harbour, Hong Kong and the Russian border are described by the RAAF as "highly optimistic".

More than a million lines of software code were written to integrate the constantly changing electronic data in what is described by RLM Systems as the biggest software development project in the southern hemisphere. The whole network is linked to a test command centre in Melbourne and, via a duplicate link, to the RAAF's high frequency surveillance command headquarters at Edinburg base, near Adelaide.

Stealth Aircraft not Immune

Edinburg is also linked to a third Jindalee transmitter and receiver at Alice Springs, which has operated as a JORN test site since 1993. McElroy says the Jindalee radar is very difficult to jam because of the way the signal is propagated over the ionosphere. "It can also detect stealth bombers, which are not designed to defeat the characteristics of Jindalee's high frequency radar," he said.

Stealth aircraft, such as the US Nighthawk F117A, are designed with sharp leading edges and a flat belly to minimise reflections back towards conventional ground-based radars. However, Jindalee radar bounces down from the ionosphere onto upper surfaces that include radar-reflecting protrusions for a cockpit, engine housings and other equipment.

Group Captain Hockings says stealth aircraft are coated with special radar absorbing material to avoid detection by conventional microwave radar. But the Jindalee radar uses high frequency radio waves, which have a much longer frequency than microwave radar. "Unless designed to be stealthy to both microwave and HF radars, (stealth) aircraft would not evade detection by JORN," he said.

Defence contractors are due to hand JORN over to the RAAF at the end of next year.

http://defence-data.com/features/fpage37.htm




bradfordkay -> (1/28/2003 2:16:42 PM)

Very Impressive... I did note that there is a gap in the coverage: it looks like Port Moresby and Gili Gili are once again the key to taking Australia!




Drongo -> (1/28/2003 3:51:08 PM)

Posted by bradfordkay
[QUOTE]Very Impressive... I did note that there is a gap in the coverage: it looks like Port Moresby and Gili Gili are once again the key to taking Australia![/QUOTE]

Not true. The PNG government, responding to Australian fears of vessels using the gap to bring in illegal refugees, have recently announced plans to sow the seas west of the mainlaind with large numbers of specially prepared coconuts.

These coconuts are drained of their milk and then dropped in dense fields off the coast. As vessels pass through the waters, the system (known as Fields Of COconuts, Free Floating) is triggered by the ship's bow wave, which causes the coconuts to collide in large numbers. The resulting surface noise (likened to a Three Stooges Clip on speed) is, thanks to the conductivity of seawater, capable of carrying enormous distances across the ocean. Extensive testing has shown that these sound waves will trigger sympathetic vibrations in shore-bound coconut trees. Ship size, speed and direction can all be ascertained by watching the fall of coconuts (or by studying the unconscious locals).

The existence of the system was recently confirmed by Papua-New Guinea Foreign Minister, Mr Roy Yaki, at the South Pacific Regional Conference.

[QUOTE]
Reporter : "Mr Yaki, Australia has spent more than 2 billion dollars in surveillance projects. What answer can you give to those who claim that PNG is avoiding its responsibility in this area?"

Mr Yaki : "FOCOFF".
[/QUOTE]

Bet no one saw that coming.




Raverdave -> (1/28/2003 5:09:07 PM)

Hey Drongo thats a pisser!:D




Cap Mandrake -> (1/28/2003 11:24:19 PM)

Drongo;


Good Acronym :D Is Papua New Guinea an Australian Protectorate or something? Surely, no boat people would choose New Guinea as their destination.




Drongo -> (1/29/2003 7:56:50 AM)

PNG was originally a German possession until WWI, when I think we nicked it. It was officially "given" to Australia by the League of Nations in 1920 as a mandated territory.

We had a shot at running the place for a while. During WWII, the natives were known as "Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels" for their efforts in carrying supplies and aiding wounded soldiers in the fighting along the Kokoda Trail. In the 1960's, PNG was given autonomy. In the 1970s, it gained full independence. Despite that, Aussies and Ex-pats are still playing a big role in its business/economic sector. Its also a major recipient of our aid programs. Our defence forces play a large role in helping train/support the PNG defence force (even when they're being naughty).

At the moment, the New Guinea you see on the UV map is the independent PNG just described. There is another half not shown on the UV map (Irian Jaya) which is currently an Indonesion province. Originally Dutch, it was handed over to the Indonesians in 1949 as part of the Dutch recognising Indonesia's independence. Currently, there is a low key, political/military freedom movement in Irian Jaya.

No, PNG would probably not be a first choice for refugees. I will be polite and say that living over there can be an interesting experience. IIRC, at least one poster to this forum has lived/worked there. My previous post was saying that people smuggling boats might try to go through PNG waters to get to Australia.

You can gauge PNG's popularity with refugees by the fact that it's one of the places Australia uses to process those refugees caught trying to enter our country illegally. Processing can sometimes take a looong time. As a deterrent, it seems to be working as we haven't had any refugee boats turn up for 12 months. Not agreeing with the morality, just commenting on its deterrence value.




Cap Mandrake -> (1/29/2003 12:50:58 PM)

Sounds like PNG is your version of Guantanamo in Cuba :D


Fascinating history. The record of the League of Nations drawing boundaries and "giving" things to Western powers for safe-keeping isn't very good. Sounds like y'all have managed better than most. :cool:




pasternakski -> (1/29/2003 12:57:47 PM)

Why not just seize the place, rename it "Botany Bay" and ...




Drongo -> (1/29/2003 1:49:15 PM)

Posted by Pasternakski
[QUOTE]Why not just seize the place, rename it "Botany Bay" and ...[/QUOTE]

...and create another Oz but this time with a Melanesian influence? You really want hordes of drunken head hunters roaming the world on tourist visas?




panda124c -> (1/30/2003 1:28:11 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drongo
[B]Posted by Pasternakski


...and create another Oz but this time with a Melanesian influence? You really want hordes of drunken head hunters roaming the world on tourist visas? [/B][/QUOTE]

Can I be the booking agent, let's see first stop Washington DC, then on to...........:rolleyes:




mbatch729 -> (1/30/2003 3:07:23 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pbear
[B]Can I be the booking agent, let's see first stop Washington DC, then on to...........:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

No, first stop...drumroll please...FRANCE!




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