2 plane counters on a CV (Full Version)

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brian brian -> 2 plane counters on a CV (1/7/2014 5:56:11 PM)

Is this a default in MWiF? I see it occurring in a lot of the AARs.

I have never played using that option, and don't plan to. If I were to guess, I would expect it is used in less than 50% of games of WiF.

I don't use it because I think it warps the scale; though scale is a flexible construct in WiF, things get really strange with planes and carriers. The rules tell me that land-base air units represent 250 aircraft, rising to 500 at the end of the war.

Let's use the Kaga as an example CV. Wiki tells me it carried "As originally completed, Kaga carried an air group of 28 Mitsubishi B1M3 torpedo bombers, 16 Nakajima A1N fighters and 16 Mitsubishi 2MR reconnaissance aircraft." (60 total aircraft)

And that should be represented by 2 cv plane counters?

I also am not a fan of the 2 plane option because I usually play with Pilots. And then generally only the USA can afford to put 6 BPs worth of planes on a Carrier - and their Carriers are plenty powerful already.

What do you think? Is there a reason to use 2 planes / CV that I am missing?



Dabrion -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/7/2014 6:20:22 PM)

I allows you to buffer with outdated CVP. CVP have multiple dates on their back, after about 1-2 years their size decreases, while the CV air component does not change (if using CVP counters). Up-to-date CV populated with up-to-date CVP will not allow 2stacking. But you you might be able to 2stack two CVP from 1940 on the fresh 1943 CV.

Apart from the pilot cost, the major change this option brings is cheap loss takers. Same as divisions for land combat.

I am not aware if backup fighter errata from 2008 Annual is incorporated in MWiF, but before that relative power/quantity of carrier-bourne ac groups vs land based ones was represented by decreased backup values (+1 vs +.1).



warspite1 -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/7/2014 6:25:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Is this a default in MWiF? I see it occurring in a lot of the AARs.

I have never played using that option, and don't plan to. If I were to guess, I would expect it is used in less than 50% of games of WiF.

I don't use it because I think it warps the scale; though scale is a flexible construct in WiF, things get really strange with planes and carriers. The rules tell me that land-base air units represent 250 aircraft, rising to 500 at the end of the war.

Let's use the Kaga as an example CV. Wiki tells me it carried "As originally completed, Kaga carried an air group of 28 Mitsubishi B1M3 torpedo bombers, 16 Nakajima A1N fighters and 16 Mitsubishi 2MR reconnaissance aircraft." (60 total aircraft)

And that should be represented by 2 cv plane counters?

I also am not a fan of the 2 plane option because I usually play with Pilots. And then generally only the USA can afford to put 6 BPs worth of planes on a Carrier - and their Carriers are plenty powerful already.

What do you think? Is there a reason to use 2 planes / CV that I am missing?
warspite1

I haven't used it - other than inadvertently when I've put the plane on the wrong carrier [8|]

Personally I think there is too much clutter when you have more than one. I will not play with more than one (knowingly) while I'm in solitaire mode, but would need to react to what others did in multiplayer.



brian brian -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/7/2014 6:31:21 PM)

One thing the game does not need is more loss takers, imo. This is true in the air, as well as land. Air combat is probably slower than land combat, actually….and late in the game, there are one heck of a lot of planes on the map.



Still wondering if it is turned on by default in MWiF then. Also wondering if MWiF by default includes the double size CV plane force pools from the CV Planes in Flames counter sheets? I forget what kit those came out in; whichever it is, it is the only one I don't have, and don't miss it.



Orm -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/7/2014 6:50:05 PM)

If you play with the CVP option then the option with 2 CVP stacking on a CV is included.



Dabrion -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/7/2014 7:07:20 PM)

I think it is the checkable option "Carrier planes" on the "Additional Units" tab. <rclick> will produce a text about what this checkbox does, in the usual vague language, which gives the impression the true content can be read up elsewhere.. probably one of the Players Manuals.

quote:


[..]
For experienced WIF players, it should be noted that this optional rule automatically incorporates the
optional rule Carrier Planes CV Only from RAW.
[..]


I am not a native speaker, but ... . It could mean that by checking the option you will now play with CVP counters and that automatically SiF+CVPiF are active. That would mean you automatically play with double stacking, as this is an automatic option if playing with CVPiF. That is what I see ingame at least with this option checked.


CVPiF also adds the juicy 44-47 planes should you go for advance building. Painfull without air specs though.. at least for JP, which profits the most from it. I am not sure I would prefer a game with only SiF CVP (w/o option CVPiF 46), but then we got CVPiF as an extra when we purchased the Deluxe Box at our store and never played without.



Centuur -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/7/2014 7:09:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

If you play with the CVP option then the option with 2 CVP stacking on a CV is included.


Which isn't RAW, since this is an optional rule itself within the optional rule of carrier planes.



Orm -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/7/2014 7:34:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

If you play with the CVP option then the option with 2 CVP stacking on a CV is included.


Which isn't RAW, since this is an optional rule itself within the optional rule of carrier planes.

Indeed. This is not RAW but it is MWIF. [;)]



Dabrion -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/7/2014 7:37:49 PM)

I always understood it to be an addition to SiF option 56, conditional on the use of CVPiF counters (see how it reads "CVPiF option 56"). Wouldn't you only convolute your CVP pools if you play extra stuff without a real place for it? To me this is the analogon to the stacking limit extensions that come with divisions/artillery.

As long as you dont play some nonsense like using CVP as LBA with all missions allowed, all is fine.


as an aside:
The a2a combat system never designed to handle the amount of planes you see on the board these days. It is basically the same as in WiF5 (perhaps before that?), with counter pools roughly comparable to with CS 1-6 + 24. The average a2a losses are far from saturating the amount/availability of planes, so that pilots become the real resource. Sadly none of the more recent additions addressed this issue competently (we didn't like the intensity rule). Basically you would have to put more planes at stake for a single combat round or it would have to be more difficult to abort after reaching your tactical goal, to address the issue od inadequate decimation.



Extraneous -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/7/2014 9:48:25 PM)

Carrier Kaga (CV) Capacity 60 aircraft
28x Nakajima A1N1 biplane carrier fighters (1925 - 1935)
16x Mitsubishi B1M biplane torpedo bombers (1924 - 1930's)
16x Mitsubishi 2MR biplane reconnaissance aircraft


Kaga was thoroughly reconstructed in 1934-35, receiving a full-length flight deck capable of efficiently handling more modern aircraft.


December 7, 1940
Carrier Kaga (CV) Capacity 90 aircraft
21x A6M2/21 Zero/Zeke Fighter, 27x D3A1/11 Val Dive-Bomber, 27x B5N2/12 Kate Torpedo-bomber

2nd Fighter Squadron (27x A6M2/21 Zero/Zeke Fighter)
1st Torpedo-bomber Squadron (18x B5N2/12 Kate Torpedo-bomber)
2nd Torpedo-bomber Squadron (3x B5N2/12 Kate Torpedo-bomber)
3rd Torpedo-bomber Squadron (3x B5N2/12 Kate Torpedo-bomber)
4th Torpedo-bomber Squadron (3x B5N2/12 Kate Torpedo-bomber)
21st Dive-Bomber Squadron (3x D3A1/11 Val Dive-Bomber)
22nd Dive-Bomber Squadron (3x D3A1/11 Val Dive-Bomber)
23rd Dive-Bomber Squadron (3x D3A1/11 Val Dive-Bomber)
24th Dive-Bomber Squadron (3x D3A1/11 Val Dive-Bomber)
25th Dive-Bomber Squadron (3x D3A1/11 Val Dive-Bomber)
26th Dive-Bomber Squadron (3x D3A1/11 Val Dive-Bomber)
27th Dive-Bomber Squadron (3x D3A1/11 Val Dive-Bomber)
28th Dive-Bomber Squadron (3x D3A1/11 Val Dive-Bomber)
29th Dive-Bomber Squadron (3x D3A1/11 Val Dive-Bomber)




alexvand -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/8/2014 12:53:57 AM)

Do keep in mind that the decreased size of the original CVPs was also meant to simulate (I think!) the fact that that same amount of air power could be provided by a smaller number of CVPs. So the optional rule to put two CVPs on a carrier doesn't actually mean that you are putting more planes on the carrier, but instead actually took that air unit and replace which planes it has.

Or at least that's the way we justified it when we played with this over the table years ago.



paulderynck -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/8/2014 3:50:56 AM)

Our group has always used the 2 CVP per CV option and never used the extra CVPiF units (which essentially replicate the SiF set of CVPs). It's never been a problem... except maybe for one of our guys who was always anal about having the absolute perfect stacking on all his CVs and went mad because he constantly ran out of rebase missions in JF and MA of each year...



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/8/2014 6:18:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

One thing the game does not need is more loss takers, imo. This is true in the air, as well as land. Air combat is probably slower than land combat, actually….and late in the game, there are one heck of a lot of planes on the map.



Still wondering if it is turned on by default in MWiF then. Also wondering if MWiF by default includes the double size CV plane force pools from the CV Planes in Flames counter sheets? I forget what kit those came out in; whichever it is, it is the only one I don't have, and don't miss it.

As a corollary to your comment about all the air units, I have noticed recently that the air-to-air combats often depend on simply how many air units you have engaged. 12 versus 8 gives a marked advantage to the side with 12, pretty much regardless of what their air-to-air factors are. Every die roll is likely to do something and the side that runs out of units first is likely to take more damage.



brian brian -> RE: 2 plane counters on a CV (1/8/2014 10:04:32 PM)

I think a slight problem crept into the game when Planes in Flames came out. Once it did, everyone thinks the air system is some sort of tactical air combat game. I enjoy the flavor of the PiF units, but the generic air units had their advantages.



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