Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (Full Version)

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catwhoorg -> Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 4:59:59 PM)

In a spin off of the 4E/Heavy Bomber crew size discussions in the VP thread, I was reminded of something I have never really understood.

Why was it in WWII that a carrier based torpedo plane typically had a crew of 3, but a dive bomber a crew of 2 ?




mind_messing -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 5:06:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

In a spin off of the 4E/Heavy Bomber crew size discussions in the VP thread, I was reminded of something I have never really understood.

Why was it in WWII that a carrier based torpedo plane typically had a crew of 3, but a dive bomber a crew of 2 ?




Torpedo's are tricky things to aim, so there was a dedicated man to aim it, and often navigate the aircraft when not actually in action (so most of the time). In dive-bombers, the bomb aiming is done mostly by the pilot positioning the aircraft.



catwhoorg -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 6:29:18 PM)

Showing my ignorance, but isn't the aiming of the torpedo basically pointing the aircraft ?




mind_messing -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 6:38:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Showing my ignorance, but isn't the aiming of the torpedo basically pointing the aircraft ?




Aircraft height, aircraft speed, angle to the target, target speed, time for the torpedo to reach the target...all while trying to man a machine gun to keep fighters off the rear of the aircraft.

That's why they put that third person in.



catwhoorg -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 7:38:04 PM)

Thanks MM, that clarifies it.



sventhebold -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 8:09:45 PM)

Plus to also watch the wave action as to not drop the fish into a broaching wave face and cause it to go astray.



mind_messing -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 8:11:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Thanks MM, that clarifies it.



Those hours invested in the Silent Hunter series haven't been totally wasted. It's hard enough aiming torpedos for a submarine, doing it while flying must be something else!



dr.hal -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 8:24:13 PM)

As to underscore this, single seat fighters very seldom navigated on their own but relied upon bombers to do it for them as there is only so much you can do with two hands. Additionally, the British resisted putting one seat fighters on their CVs for a long time due to this very problem. Also the USN up until recently really liked two seat fighters (Tomcat being the last). I guess with modern electronics this concept is now fading from history! (and so too pilots if I read the tea leaves correctly!) Hal



tocaff -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 10:20:59 PM)

A major problem that confronted the US forces in the PIs was that the Army couldn't operate it's fighters to far offshore because they weren't trained for it. The CVs were stuck protecting the landings even after airfields were up and running. Of course Marines were brought in to help with the problem.



wdolson -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 11:19:04 PM)

I don't think the third crew member aimed the torpedo. From everything I have read, that was the pilot's job. TBDs only carried the third crew member for land bombing missions. There were some small doors just in front of the tip of the torpedo (when carried). On land bombing missions those doors were opened and the guy in the middle cockpit had a bomb site that aimed out that door. The TBF had a window in the back of the bomb bay with a bomb site for the guy down in the belly, though in practice the pilot dropped the ordinance most of the time when carrying bombs. The TBF-1 also had a set of controls in the middle cockpit and the guy in the belly could crawl up there and use them if the pilot was incapacitated, but that too was dropped. On subsequent versions of the TBF there wasn't even a seat in that position.

Japanese torpedo bombers also had a bombsite setup for the guy in the center cockpit. The Jill also had a downward firing gun in the back of the fuselage that could be used by the middle cockpit guy. It must have been tough to get to.

Bill



jcjordan -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/21/2014 11:37:28 PM)

Wasn't a TB crew essentially made up of - pilot/bomber, radio man (navigator) & gunner?



Gaspote -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 11:29:41 AM)

In tb, the navigator is the torpedo officer because TB are like level bombers not dive bomber. It's impossible for the pilot to aim correcty.



wdolson -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 12:41:29 PM)

Um, it is well documented that all TBDs at Midway only had a crew of two. I haven't found much information on Coral Sea, but what I have seen indicates the TBDs were flying with a crew of two then too.

Additionally, the crew positions in a TBF/TBM only had one crew member with any forward visibility at all: the pilot. The guy behind the bombay could see a little forward at an angle, but he could not see a ship on a torpedo run. The radio operator/navigator could climb up between the turret and pilot on the TBF-1, but the seat there was eliminated late in the -1 production run. That bay was filled with electronics and there was no way for a crew member to get up there.

I have also read many accounts of torpedo drops by US and British pilots. It's always the pilot who aims and releases the torpedo.

I don't know about Japanese doctrine, but I suspect it was the same as the west.

I believe torpedo bombers had the third crew member because doctrine called for mixed strike packages and since the torpedo bomber had the least need to maneuver, it could most afford the third crew member and it was the torpedo bomber's role to navigate for the entire formation. In practice it didn't work out that way. In the USN even single engine fighter pilots were making long range strikes with no other aircraft. By the time of the Battle of the Philippine Sea, the US was using F6F as regular bombers, even in the anti-shipping strike role.

USN fighter pilots were pulling off feats nobody else thought possible at war's start. The USN and USMC were also the only forces in the world to operate single seat, single engine, radar equipped night fighters. The USN fighters were landing and taking off from a carrier in the dark.

I could be wrong, but I think the pilot had complete control over the torpedo.

Bill



Chickenboy -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 1:14:03 PM)

FWIW, I recall reading GHW Bush's recollections of being shot down. He lost two crewmen that he was with in his TBM. It was a land bombing (radar installation) mission over Chichi Jima.



Mundy -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 1:22:13 PM)

Reading George Gay's account, he only had the gunner with him.

Bill's on the mark regarding the 3rd crewman.

Ed-



Ralzakark -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 1:22:55 PM)

For those who think the middle crewman aimed the torpedo, what is your source?



mind_messing -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 2:54:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralzakark

For those who think the middle crewman aimed the torpedo, what is your source?


The fact that in most of the planes, the title of the middle crewman was "Torpedo officer" or something simmilar.



Panther Bait -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 8:19:39 PM)

I've typically seen the third crew member referred to as a bombardier, but not a torpedo officer. Referring to him as the bombardier may support the idea stated above that the third crewmember was most needed on bombing runs, not torpedo runs.

Mike



AW1Steve -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 9:41:16 PM)

In the case of the Japanese , the middle crewman navigated , had a bomb sight and did level bombing as a bombardier. He often was an officer , and strike leaders would frequently fly in this position. In the case of the USN the middle seat was usually an aviation ordanceman . The USN had no officer navigators till the early 1960s. In patrol planes this role was filled by an off duty pilot , and in one engine planes the aviation radio man (usually also a gunner) was given navigation training. If an actual bombardier was needed , an aviation ordanceman did the job as they had all dealings with ordance of every kind. Later when RADAR was installed , the 'ordie" was often replaced by an airborne RADAR operator , or might be given some training in this field. USN aircrewmen , then as now , were specialist , but expected to cross train in other "rates" .




Gaspote -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 9:48:57 PM)

I'm thinking torpedo get a torpedo officer because in B5N, during the attack of Pearl Harbor they send bomber with 900kg in level bombing and the guy aiming was the torpedo officer.

In TBF the ventral gunner was the torpedo officer, a ventral gunner isn't necessary at 100m.

[image]http://www.philcrowther.com/VC27/images/TBM_interior.gif[/image]

We can see the gunsight and which seems to be the radar too.


But I'm pretty sure they didn't use a torpedo officer for every mission like naval search or skip bombing mission.




AW1Steve -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 9:54:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

I'm thinking torpedo get a torpedo officer because in B5N, during the attack of Pearl Harbor they send bomber with 900kg in level bombing and the guy aiming was the torpedo officer.

In TBF the ventral gunner was the torpedo officer, a ventral gunner isn't necessary at 100m.

[image]http://www.philcrowther.com/VC27/images/TBM_interior.gif[/image]

We can see the gunsight and which seems to be the radar too.


But I'm pretty sure they didn't use a torpedo officer for every mission like naval search or skip bombing mission.





As I said, the USN didn't have an "airborne torpedo officer". The only officer in the crew of a USN Strike aircraft , till the early 1960's , was a pilot. The Naval Flight Officer program did not exit.



AW1Steve -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 9:55:37 PM)

And your "torpedo officer" was an enlisted Radio/RADAR/Navigator/gunner/cook/plane cleaner dog's body. [:D]



wdolson -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 11:02:02 PM)

To add a little more, I looked at my Hasegawa 1/48 scale Japanese torpedo planes. I have the Kate, Jill, and Grace. The Grace was a dual purpose plane and only had a crew of two. All three had a bombsight that was in the second cockpit, or the rear in the case of the Grace. On the Kate and Jill, there was a significant step down between the pilot and the second seat, so the second seater had very poor vision over the top of the plane out the front.

The Grace's bombsight had an optical periscope arrangement that poked out the bottom of the bomb bay. With a torpedo installed, the bomb bay doors were closed and the torpedo rack was attached to the outside. The periscope bottom was flush with the bomb bay doors. It is conceivable, but unlikely that the second seater could use the periscope on a torpedo mission. The second seater was more likely manning his gun. At that point in the war any torpedo strike would have been heavily defended by Allied fighters.

The Kate and Jill had a window in the bottom of the plane connected to the bombsight, but they were flush with the bottom of the fuselage. On the Jill the window was a little off center, so conceivably the middle seater had a view out the bottom through his bombsight. On the Kate, the window was on the centerline of the plane. When carrying bombs, there were two racks, one to each side of the centerline leaving the window free. When carrying a torpedo, the window was covered by the torpedo rack.

I don't see anyway the middle seat guy could have done anything to aid the offensive mission on a torpedo strike.

And in the diagram of the TBF above, the "Optional Seat" was only there on the first production run. The seat was removed during the first production run to make room for electronics and all WW II combat TBF/TBMs after that used that space as an electronics bay. Post war the Avenger was cast into many support roles like they became the first COD aircraft and many were modified into dedicated ASW aircraft. I believe some post war aircraft had the seat put back in. Additionally most restored Avengers today have a seat there so they can carry a passenger. 1940s electronics was very bulky and had to go somewhere.

Bill



Joe D. -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 11:15:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

In the case of the Japanese , the middle crewman navigated , had a bomb sight and did level bombing as a bombardier. He often was an officer , and strike leaders would frequently fly in this position ...


I thought I saw the strike leader in the Pearl Harbor movie we can name -- "Tora, Tora, Tora" -- in the middle seat with a map as the flight approached PH.



Gaspote -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 11:25:02 PM)

Call him like you want but the pilot isn't dropping the torpedo, it's someone else. To drop a torpedo, you are suppose to fly at 300km/h (perhaps even slower) at 30m from the sea, in this position you don't see the ship you're aiming. It's possible that pilot get a button to drop but even in this case, someone have to say when he can drop the torpedo.




Joe D. -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/22/2014 11:40:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

Call him like you want but the pilot isn't dropping the torpedo, it's someone else. To drop a torpedo, you are suppose to fly at 300km/h (perhaps even slower) at 30m from the sea, in this position you don't see the ship you're aiming. It's possible that pilot get a button to drop but even in this case, someone have to say when he can drop the torpedo.



Didn't the back-seater on a Brit Fairy Swordfish TB have to practically wing walk in order to tell the pilot when it was OK to drop the fish?
I seem to recall similar acrobatics during the sinking of the Bismarck.



Gaspote -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/23/2014 12:04:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

Call him like you want but the pilot isn't dropping the torpedo, it's someone else. To drop a torpedo, you are suppose to fly at 300km/h (perhaps even slower) at 30m from the sea, in this position you don't see the ship you're aiming. It's possible that pilot get a button to drop but even in this case, someone have to say when he can drop the torpedo.



Didn't the back-seater on a Brit Fairy Swordfish TB have to practically wing walk in order to tell the pilot when it was OK to drop the fish?
I seem to recall similar acrobatics during the sinking of the Bismarck.



I think it was because torpedoes suck at this time so they basically breaked into water if they weren't release at the right time.



wdolson -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/23/2014 12:45:53 AM)

I suggest you read some accounts of people who have actually dropped torpedoes. In every account I have ever read, it was the pilot who did the drop. And they had zero problem seeing the target. I also believe 30m was pretty low for a typical torpedo bomber run in. I have read accounts of more like 300 feet (about 100 m).

Bill



AW1Steve -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/23/2014 1:26:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I suggest you read some accounts of people who have actually dropped torpedoes. In every account I have ever read, it was the pilot who did the drop. And they had zero problem seeing the target. I also believe 30m was pretty low for a typical torpedo bomber run in. I have read accounts of more like 300 feet (about 100 m).

Bill


I've seen torpedoes dropped from 300'. Admittedly it was a modern torpedo , not a ww2. Our biggest problem was generally speed related , vice altitude. [:)]



wdolson -> RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 (1/23/2014 2:25:56 AM)

By late war the US put a breakaway box around the fins of torpedoes so they could be dropped from higher altitude and higher speeds. I believe 300 feet was the standard drop altitude by 1944.

Bill



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