[RESOLVED] more air combat issues (Full Version)

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Yokes -> [RESOLVED] more air combat issues (1/25/2014 4:26:08 AM)

There are a couple of air combat issues that are driving me crazy.

1. Aircraft ignore nearby bandits so they can close on one WAAAAYYYY far away. Meanwhile that lowly MiG-21 puts an atoll up the tailpipe.
2. The logic seems to favor the aircraft the FARTHEST away from a target to take a shot. This seems backwards to me. For example, I have two aircraft 20 miles apart. There is a bandit 5 miles from the closest aircraft (and therefore 25 miles from my far aircraft). The one farthest away will always take the first shot. Meanwhile, my closest aircraft is stupidly flying directly at the bandit so that it can attack someone 100 miles away (see point 1). I would like to see the nearest aircraft deal with the bandit, and not the one farthest away.
3. I hate when an aircraft (or a ship/SAM) shoots a missile at a target that is between 1 and 20000 miles away because I got a split-second ESM uncertainty box. First off, just a second ago you knew that target was 100 miles away, and just because you momentary lost radar lock you think it can warp to within 1 mile of you? Why doesn't the uncertainty region slowly grow off the previously known location? (It often does, but sometimes it momentarily becomes that "bearing only" ESM uncertainty zone.)
4. I like that BVR-equipped fighters Winchester when all the BVRs are gone, but I hate that they seem to think they are completely unarmed. I have Eagles heading home with sidewinders and someone starts shooting at them from close range (gun shots!) and they just go defensive and never attempt to fight back. Would it be possible for some offensive shots to be part of a defensive engagement? Or is there some other way to do this? I am guessing the answer is to turn the "Winchester RTB" option off, but I don't want them charging into a gun fight wielding a knife. I only want them using the knife when they are in a knife fight. Make sense?

Overall I think this game is a huge improvement over Harpoon. However, these air combat issues, the completely blind submarines (mentioned in another thread), and the constant 12-knot ASW patrols are breaking most of the scenarios I have tried to build. There is a great foundation here, it just needs some tweaks.

Yokes



ExMachina -> RE: more air combat issues (1/25/2014 1:42:28 PM)

Great points Yokes.

Most of those behaviors can be "fixed" by micromanagement, however your point number 3 cannot and I've gotten bit by that behavior too. It seems like the AI staff plots passive contacts with absolutely no memory of prior active fixes (even active fixes that were a mere second old).



Yokes -> RE: more air combat issues (1/25/2014 3:46:24 PM)

ExMachia,

I agree about the micromanagement, but I hate micromanaging, and I want the AI to behave intelligently. It's frustrating trying to create a scenario that you want to play out in a certain way and see that ruined by bad AI.

Yokes.



ComDev -> RE: more air combat issues (1/25/2014 4:27:46 PM)

Thanks Yokes, have assigned to me and given top priority. Some of these are quite complex and will take time to implement properly. So will finish a few db additions and some other high-pri items for Command 1.03 first, before I get started on this [8D]



mikmykWS -> RE: more air combat issues (1/25/2014 4:45:20 PM)

1-2. Yeah its not that it stupidly picking the farthest its picking up the first it id's and detects (so an order of detection thing rather than any any sort of priority logic). It is definitely something we've talked about and will address.
3. The detect and shoot thing is an issue. If you can grab a save when this happens it will help us solve it.
4. Yeah this one is a challenge. Know when to hold and when to fold em kind of case logic.

Thanks for your input this stuff does help us make a better game.



mikmykWS -> RE: more air combat issues (1/25/2014 5:33:01 PM)

Just thought of something.

Using the opportunity fire might lighten the impact of a few of these. This basically opens up the AI to fire on known hostiles that are in range.

Hope this helps!

Mike



Yokes -> RE: more air combat issues (1/25/2014 7:48:17 PM)

Mike,

That's a great idea! I will try using the opportunity option.

Emsoy,

I appreciate how responsive you and the team have been when it comes to community feedback. You have a fantastic foundation built and I am happy to provide constructive feedback to make it better.

Yokes



Dimitris -> RE: more air combat issues (12/16/2016 2:53:42 PM)

Can we please get an update on which of the original reported issues remains at large and their urgency/criticality?

Thanks!



DrRansom -> RE: more air combat issues (12/16/2016 4:59:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Can we please get an update on which of the original reported issues remains at large and their urgency/criticality?

Thanks!


I think the furthest back fighter taking a shot is still an issue, at least I recall something like that happening when playing Ruby Slipper. I made some savegames for other bugs, not this one...

For the BVR fighters not being able to shoot, I believe that is fixed. At least, I remember the Su-35s using the SRAAM after using up all the LRAAMs.

As for other air combat issues, I guess one issue might be aircraft kinematics, e.g. maneuverability being altitude independent and aircraft climb rates appearing to be broadly similar. (Though, I'd have to test the last one)

However, I don't think any of the above are immediately critical. The issue of the furthest back aircraft taking a shot was annoying, though.



Excroat3 -> RE: more air combat issues (12/16/2016 5:22:11 PM)

Not sure how this could be fixed, but if you have a missile already targeted at an enemy aircraft, sometimes friendly aircraft won't fire even though they may be closer to the target than the actual missile is. So all I can do is helplessly watch and the enemy fighter shoots at my planes when they don't do anything in response. I guess that the issue is related to the furthest aircraft firing issue, but I just wanted to add this to make sure.



Kitchens Sink -> RE: more air combat issues (12/16/2016 6:08:58 PM)

I seem to recall that the "Collective Responsibility" side setting has something to do with that issue, but I haven't specifically tested it.



Dimitris -> RE: more air combat issues (12/16/2016 8:43:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DrRansom
I think the furthest back fighter taking a shot is still an issue, at least I recall something like that happening when playing Ruby Slipper. I made some savegames for other bugs, not this one...

If anyone is able to provide a save that reproduces this issue consistently it would be great.

quote:


For the BVR fighters not being able to shoot, I believe that is fixed. At least, I remember the Su-35s using the SRAAM after using up all the LRAAMs.

Thanks!

quote:


As for other air combat issues, I guess one issue might be aircraft kinematics, e.g. maneuverability being altitude independent and aircraft climb rates appearing to be broadly similar. (Though, I'd have to test the last one)

Thanks, logged the maneuverability issue separately. The climb rate problem was fixed a while ago, should be included on the next public release.



Dimitris -> RE: more air combat issues (12/16/2016 8:46:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Excroat3
Not sure how this could be fixed, but if you have a missile already targeted at an enemy aircraft, sometimes friendly aircraft won't fire even though they may be closer to the target than the actual missile is. So all I can do is helplessly watch and the enemy fighter shoots at my planes when they don't do anything in response. I guess that the issue is related to the furthest aircraft firing issue, but I just wanted to add this to make sure.


IIRC we solved this by providing the "self-defence threshold" range in the WRA settings. So for example even if your wingman's Phoenix (or friendly SA-5 etc.) is enroute, if the bandit gets too close the pilot still gets to shoot. If this is not working or there is another issue we'd very much appreciate a suitable save.

Thanks!



Excroat3 -> RE: more air combat issues (12/16/2016 8:56:19 PM)

Yeah I've noticed that and my planes usually fire SRAAMs when close enough but the main problem lies within enemy fighters with BVR missiles, because if you let the AI do its thing your planes will close in and get fired upon by the enemy missiles without firing their own BVRs in return.



Kitchens Sink -> RE: more air combat issues (12/16/2016 9:06:33 PM)

I forgot about the Self Defense setting. I just did a little test. If you set your BVR weapons on the Self Defense Side Doctrine WRA to something like 90% of their max range, they will shoot the BVR weapons at enemy targets when they get that close, regardless of whether something is already incoming at the target. Or you can use 80%...whatever works for you.

Thanks for the reminder of this feature Sunburn...I can't keep up.



Dimitris -> RE: more air combat issues (12/17/2016 5:30:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Excroat3
Yeah I've noticed that and my planes usually fire SRAAMs when close enough but the main problem lies within enemy fighters with BVR missiles, because if you let the AI do its thing your planes will close in and get fired upon by the enemy missiles without firing their own BVRs in return.


If you can provide a save demonstrating this it would be great.

Thanks in advance!



Jmsimer -> RE: more air combat issues (12/17/2016 6:54:50 PM)

Just bought the game a couple weeks ago. I'm trying to play the first Northern Fury Scenario. My F16s keep flying right up to the MiGs without firing and of course then get waxed. They're within range, opportunity set to yes, no ambiguity in target location due to AWACs, I try setting attack orders (F1) and also manually (shift-F1). F16s are pointed at the target, but I get a message that the Sidewinders "have not detected the target." Altitude closely matches so I don't think it's cloud cover. What am I doing wrong?



mikmykWS -> RE: more air combat issues (12/17/2016 7:11:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jmsimer

Just bought the game a couple weeks ago. I'm trying to play the first Northern Fury Scenario. My F16s keep flying right up to the MiGs without firing and of course then get waxed. They're within range, opportunity set to yes, no ambiguity in target location due to AWACs, I try setting attack orders (F1) and also manually (shift-F1). F16s are pointed at the target, but I get a message that the Sidewinders "have not detected the target." Altitude closely matches so I don't think it's cloud cover. What am I doing wrong?


Hi

If you've got a file please post it. Its just easier for us to tell you exactly whats going on.

As far as issues with sidewinder shots. First make sure the target is hostile. Next if its a rear aspect Sidewinder your aircraft may have to maneuver behind be in range.

Thanks!

Mike



Jmsimer -> RE: more air combat issues (12/17/2016 8:06:37 PM)

Target is definitely hostile. Friendly aircraft armed with AIM-9L and approaching from 90 degree to rear 3/4 angle. Tried to load a save file but now I can't see or edit any of the doctrines for some reason. I went into the menu to "change side doctrine," and when I went to EMCON the game crashed. If I'm able to get past these other problems to re-create the original one, I will let you know.



Jmsimer -> RE: more air combat issues (12/17/2016 8:16:13 PM)

Here is a save from the beginning of the scenario before the incident occurred, showing the settings. Note that all the F16s involved were part of the "AAW Consolidation" mission



Jmsimer -> RE: more air combat issues (12/17/2016 8:20:03 PM)

Ah, here's the one I was looking for. This is right as the engagement is starting. The incident is occurring SE of Tromso. I've used AWACs to bring in groups 4261, 4262, and 4266 in alongside to slightly behind the MiGs, F16s' radars off to avoid detection. The F16s started at low altitude. When this autosave was made, I'd already started climbing them to high altitude to see if that was preventing them from firing.



Jmsimer -> RE: more air combat issues (12/17/2016 10:29:01 PM)

Here's another save. Group 4352, with radars on, is going to continue flying right at these approaching MiG-29s and never fire a round. They will both get shot down without even attempting to engage. I realize it can get depressing if you're stationed up near the Arctic Circle in winter and haven't seen the sun for three months, but if they're suicidal I would have expected them to just fly into the ground!



mikmykWS -> RE: more air combat issues (12/17/2016 10:31:05 PM)

Try checking off investigates contacts outside the patrol zone or at least expanding the area to cover the area the aircraft are currently flying in and see if the results are better. Right now the zone you've set up is pretty small and the F-16's aren't really going engaged offensive because the targets you want them to shoot are well outside of it. I think there is a lot of push and pull going on between orders and responses which is to be expected during a complex engagement and small zone is probably the culprit.

Just an FYI. If you select a mission in the mission editor and move the window you can see the zones you selected. The game also gives warnings when you sent up strange zones (z's instead of squares etc) when you load. You have a number of those situations. When you set up missions try the cntrl right click menu define area option. You can click and drag areas and it will lay out 4 points correctly for you.

Let me know how you do.

Thanks!

Mike




Jmsimer -> RE: more air combat issues (12/18/2016 3:44:05 AM)

No luck. Did all of the above, F16s still fly around aimlessly and don't engage the MiGs.



mikmykWS -> RE: more air combat issues (12/18/2016 12:14:25 PM)

Odd worked fine when I did it.

Mike



Jmsimer -> RE: more air combat issues (12/18/2016 4:13:09 PM)

I got better results when I backed up 20 seconds from the autosave and tried again. Still a lot of odd behavior like one aircraft in a group flying toward the enemy without engaging while the other turns away (both have full weapons and plenty of fuel), but I was at least able to get a roughly even exchange with the MiGs.



HaughtKarl -> RE: more air combat issues (12/25/2016 2:32:53 AM)

I fired up the game after being away from it for several months and I've noticed the same thing with regards to air to air combat. I'll setup CAP zones with 'investigate contacts outside patrol area' checked and more often than not my F4's will get casually gunned down by a J-6 that mozied on over while the other CAP planes ignored it. It defiantly feels like something is off because I can't recall my units acting in this manner back when I regularly played the game.



Jmsimer -> RE: more air combat issues (12/25/2016 3:24:13 AM)

Been much better for me with mikmyk's recommendations. It just didn't work in that first game... for some reason I had to back up to an earlier autosave and then make the changes, and things were better. I still get goofy behavior occasionally but it's much more manageable, and if I restore from an autosave the goofiness usually won't repeat.



Dimitris -> RE: more air combat issues (12/25/2016 8:16:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HaughtKarl
I fired up the game after being away from it for several months and I've noticed the same thing with regards to air to air combat. I'll setup CAP zones with 'investigate contacts outside patrol area' checked and more often than not my F4's will get casually gunned down by a J-6 that mozied on over while the other CAP planes ignored it. It defiantly feels like something is off because I can't recall my units acting in this manner back when I regularly played the game.


Can you provide a save file? We cannot investigate anecdotes.



Dimitris -> RE: more air combat issues (12/25/2016 8:32:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jmsimer
Ah, here's the one I was looking for. This is right as the engagement is starting. The incident is occurring SE of Tromso. I've used AWACs to bring in groups 4261, 4262, and 4266 in alongside to slightly behind the MiGs, F16s' radars off to avoid detection. The F16s started at low altitude. When this autosave was made, I'd already started climbing them to high altitude to see if that was preventing them from firing.


Just tested this.

* First attempt to order Group 4266 to engage the Flankers: The Falcons had still a few seconds on their OODA loop before they could begin attempting to engage. (The absolute best way of quickly learning why a platform will not fire: Try a manual weapon allocation and see the feedback. We state this in the manual too IIRC.)

* Second attempt, after the OODA countdown finished (you can watch the number if you enable targeting vectors): The AIM-9s would not detect the Flankers. Quick check at relative altitudes and weather: Falcons at ~10K feet and climbing, Flankers at 36K feet, light clouds between 20-23K feet. The clouds are blocking the AIM-9 seekers from acquiring.

* Once the Falcons cleared the cloud layer, I didn't even have to order them to attack: They acquired and began firing immediately.

Looks like WAD.




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