American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room



Message

hades1001 -> American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 1:03:48 PM)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Lautem at 72,115

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 20
N1K5-J George x 76
Ki-84r Frank x 96

Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 504
SB2C-3 Helldiver x 349
TBM-1C Avenger x 313

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K5-J George: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 20 destroyed
SB2C-3 Helldiver: 10 destroyed, 42 damaged
SB2C-3 Helldiver: 2 destroyed by flak
TBM-1C Avenger: 1 destroyed, 28 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamashiro, Bomb hits 8, on fire
DD Kyukaze, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 13, on fire
DD Harukaze, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Kiso, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Tachikaze, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Yayoi, Bomb hits 4, and is sunk
DD Asanagi, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Tatsukaze, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Numakaze, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 10, on fire
DD Urukaze, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk
DD Minekaze, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Asakaze
DD Hatakaze, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
BB Fuso, Bomb hits 13, on fire
DD Umikaze, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Yukikaze, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Murasame

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
11 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
3 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
19 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
16 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
6 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
18 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
4 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
11 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
11 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
3 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
27 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
27 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
26 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
27 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
27 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
27 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
25 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
26 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
27 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
27 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
27 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
10 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
3 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
7 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
17 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
17 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
16 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
13 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
9 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
10 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
20 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
13 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb



USSAmerica -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 1:39:38 PM)

Looks like you didn't get the best die rolls possible, but the Heavy Clouds and a large number of CAP fighters will also have an effect on accuracy. Experience of your TB pilots is also key. Too many variables involved to say exactly which one caused the relatively poor TB performance. Probably a combination of all of them along with poor die rolls.



hades1001 -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 1:50:45 PM)

I don't think cap is a issue here because the 500 escorts break through the cap easily and we see only insignificant bombers loss;

Heavy cloud shouldn't be issue because the torpedo bombers are flying at 6000 ft. But I'm not sure about this.

Experience: all torpedo bomber pilots are 70+exp, 70+ torpedo bomb skills, again, the best Allies can train, not a issue here.

I have noticed Allies torpedo bombers poor performance for a long time but this is just outrages and humiliating, where are the torpedo bombers that torpedoed Musashi more than a dozen times?



dr.hal -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 2:07:21 PM)

Poor performance is one thing, but less than 1% hit rate is beyond poor....... not sure what is happening but clearly the die gods were against you.......



tigercub -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 2:34:40 PM)

yep that's not good! never seen that bad from such a large strike....very odd.

Tigercub



Lecivius -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 2:55:31 PM)

Those are some serious los ratios. Did you get bounced hard before the raid made it to target?



Lokasenna -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 3:10:57 PM)

What were they launching against? DDs almost never get hit by torpedoes.



jeffk3510 -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 3:41:19 PM)

To me, looking at the ratios of planes per side on the strike, you should have obliterated the Japanese no questions asked.

I'm scratching my head..



Miller -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 3:51:11 PM)

All down to the weather. Anything worse than "Partial cloud" and the hit rate nose dives. Despite being a Jap "fanboy" I think the Allies get the sh*tty end of the stick when it comes to torpedo armed a/c attack results.



jeffk3510 -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 3:54:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

All down to the weather. Anything worse than "Partial cloud" and the hit rate nose dives. Despite being a Jap "fanboy" I think the Allies get the sh*tty end of the stick when it comes to torpedo armed a/c attack results.


You're probably correct about the weather... but Heavy Clouds... I wouldn't have guessed would cause that much.

662 attack planes, 91 hits...[8|]

Estimated raid alt is 16k.. are your torp/bombers set to higher than dive bomb range, if so, they're glide bombing which explains it all. I do notice you're release altitude looks normal, though.



tigercub -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 5:00:18 PM)

16,000ft glide attack... weather ...bad rolls...fighters and bad luck I guess.



hades1001 -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 5:21:11 PM)

again,

DB are at 15,000 ft, TB are at 6,000 ft, no glide bombing

no heavy cap, lost only 40 escort fighters and 20 bombers, compare to the 1,000+ planes strike wave, it's nothing.

It's either Allies torpedo bombers are extremely ineffective, or they attack the destroyers instead of battleships, which I don't understand the target choosing mechanism or the reason behind that.

Anyway, very disappointing performance.



hades1001 -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 5:23:59 PM)

And I bet if these torpedo bombers are from Japan, the whole fleet will be wiped out without question.

I know that Allies torpedos are about 50% as accurate as Janpanese torpedos, this kind of performance is still way off.

Only thing can justify this is a extremely bad roll



Lokasenna -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 5:47:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

And I bet if these torpedo bombers are from Japan, the whole fleet will be wiped out without question.

I know that Allies torpedos are about 50% as accurate as Janpanese torpedos, this kind of performance is still way off.

Only thing can justify this is a extremely bad roll


Come on now, nobody actually believes that there's a difference in how the code treats Japanese or Allied air units, do they? I think a lot of the observed difference between American and Japanese TB performance is in the pilot quality.

Even if the USN player has trained his pilots up to 70 NavT skill, pilot Exp itself is likely under 60. The IJN pilots are frequently 70+ in both Exp and NavT. Even then, hitting DDs is hard. It doesn't happen that often. Less than 10%, unless the ship is already damaged. Notice how almost the entire fleet is DDs. Those are hard to hit even with bombs. What are your pilot skill and experience levels?

And other than that, I think it's just bad dice rolls in this case. How many TBs attacked the BBs? How many attacked the DDs? Clearly the TBs attacking Kiso sunk her.



Amoral -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 5:59:28 PM)

Also of note is the way randomly rolling against a skill means that a slightly higher skill makes for a much better pilot.

Lets say a skill 70 pilot has a 70% chance of not messing up his attack due to pilot error. That means that a skill 80 pilot is 50% better than a skill 70 pilot. In 10 attacks the 70 guy will fail his pilot roll 3 times, and the 80 guy just twice.

What I'm trying to say is that when you look at the numbers, and the Americans are 66-72 skill, and the Japanese are 76-82 your gut might tell you the Japanese should have about a 10% edge in getting hits. When in fact the Japanese are nearly twice as good.

Caveat being I have no idea how the skill rolls actually work. it might not be a linear distribution like the phase dice roll implies. But it is something to consider.



hades1001 -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 6:07:37 PM)

First of all, Thank you for reading.

The Allies pilots are 70 plus exp, 70 plus torpedo bombing, 70+ naval bombing, most of them even have 70 in defense skill.

I'm at early 45 so there is no doubt that those pilots are the best Allies can get.

Two issues here, Allies torpedo bombers ARE treated differently, the Japanese torpedoes are more effective, this is a known fact.

According to the database, Allies torpedoes, the MK14 (or whatever type, I can't recall now), is about as 50% accurate as Japanese air drop torpedoes. However I have discovered in the game that Allies torpedoes tend to hit a 1:10 ratio compare to Japanese torpedoes, which makes Allies torpedoes very unpopular for the carrier fleet.

But they are the only planes that can deal damage to battleships. I can't use dive bombers to sink battleships, so I have no choice but to bring some torpedo bombers.

The other issue is: why the AI chose DD instead of battleships? Isn't the battleship a natural choice for torpedo bombers? Why they waste the torpedoes on the targets they will never hit? Something is broken with AI?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

And I bet if these torpedo bombers are from Japan, the whole fleet will be wiped out without question.

I know that Allies torpedos are about 50% as accurate as Janpanese torpedos, this kind of performance is still way off.

Only thing can justify this is a extremely bad roll


Come on now, nobody actually believes that there's a difference in how the code treats Japanese or Allied air units, do they? I think a lot of the observed difference between American and Japanese TB performance is in the pilot quality.

Even if the USN player has trained his pilots up to 70 NavT skill, pilot Exp itself is likely under 60. The IJN pilots are frequently 70+ in both Exp and NavT. Even then, hitting DDs is hard. It doesn't happen that often. Less than 10%, unless the ship is already damaged. Notice how almost the entire fleet is DDs. Those are hard to hit even with bombs. What are your pilot skill and experience levels?

And other than that, I think it's just bad dice rolls in this case. How many TBs attacked the BBs? How many attacked the DDs? Clearly the TBs attacking Kiso sunk her.




AW1Steve -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 7:10:43 PM)

The AI is "pretty good" considering 1) the game cost less than $100 USD. And 2) your playing it on a PC , not a Cray supercomputer. Why not try a PBEM with a human? The AI is a great training tool , but it has it's limits.....[:)]



hades1001 -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 7:15:06 PM)

This is a PBEM in early 45

When referring to AI, I was talking about the mechanism of chosing targets, it's done by code, not by the choice of player.


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

The AI is "pretty good" considering 1) the game cost less than $100 USD. And 2) your playing it on a PC , not a Cray supercomputer. Why not try a PBEM with a human? The AI is a great training tool , but it has it's limits.....[:)]




offenseman -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 8:08:55 PM)

What about leaders? Were the squadron leaders sufficiently aggressive or conservative enough that they may have opted to attack targets that had less flak. Just a thought.



Spidery -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 8:34:56 PM)

quote:

Two issues here, Allies torpedo bombers ARE treated differently, the Japanese torpedoes are more effective, this is a known fact.


Looking in DBB, the Japanese torpedo has an accuracy of 31 and the American of 27. However, the American one has a range of 6 as opposed to the Japanese one of 2. Hypothetically, if the torpedoes are being dropped at a longer range then the code may significantly reduce the chance of a hit against a target of small size and high manoeuvrability, such as a DD. Presumably, there is a compensating reduction in the exposure to flak.



jeffk3510 -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 8:45:40 PM)

Is 15k the cutoff for glide bombing, or is it 16k?

I ALWAYS make sure my Dive Bombers are 14k or under, because I thought at 15k they glide bomb. Maybe not.

There is a good argument about torpedoes against DDs, which I agree with, but only one torp hit in all of the attacks makes me scratch my head.

I don't know if it has anything to do with it (they obviously coordinated ok from launch) but your torpedo planes were WAY lower than your escort's alt.. would this adversely affect their torpedo runs by having more enemy fighters "on them", thus lowering their effectiveness?



jcjordan -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 8:47:00 PM)

Could the problem be one of the "too many planes in combat" errors & led to the outcome?



jeffk3510 -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 8:49:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Could the problem be one of the "too many planes in combat" errors & led to the outcome?


I have noticed when there are tons of aircraft involved it blows the system's mind.



Professor Chaos -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 9:33:41 PM)

Is it expected for Hellcats to suffer a 1:20 kill ratio at this stage of the war?



wdolson -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 11:09:24 PM)

quote:

Two issues here, Allies torpedo bombers ARE treated differently, the Japanese torpedoes are more effective, this is a known fact.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidery
Looking in DBB, the Japanese torpedo has an accuracy of 31 and the American of 27. However, the American one has a range of 6 as opposed to the Japanese one of 2. Hypothetically, if the torpedoes are being dropped at a longer range then the code may significantly reduce the chance of a hit against a target of small size and high manoeuvrability, such as a DD. Presumably, there is a compensating reduction in the exposure to flak.


I haven't looked at this section of code, but I strongly doubt there is any bias in the code for nationality.

It sounds like something in the DB is wrong if the Mk 14 has a range of 6 and the IJN aerial torpedo has a range of 2. IJN torpedoes had longer range than US torpedoes.

Bill



wdolson -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 11:11:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Professor Chaos

Is it expected for Hellcats to suffer a 1:20 kill ratio at this stage of the war?


Escorts suffer higher losses in general. Though the George losses are kind of low.

Bill



AW1Steve -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/28/2014 11:14:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Professor Chaos

Is it expected for Hellcats to suffer a 1:20 kill ratio at this stage of the war?


Escorts suffer higher losses in general. Though the George losses are kind of low.

Bill

FOW? [&:]



LoBaron -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/29/2014 5:45:32 AM)

Weather, enhanced by some other factors is my guess (incoming alt does not influence weather impact).

From the looks it could be the initial bomber wave hitting the BBs, and the following TBs attack deteriorated because of smoke from the burning ships reducing visibility.

Not enough info on below details which could also contribute to a bad attack:
- patch version
- scenario
- leader stats
- pilot fatigue values
- pilot skills in detail
- enemy TF DL (probably an important part)
- range to target

Without details on those it is pretty much complete guesswork.

The code does not treat TBs from either side differently, although the database does. The Allies main weapon is the bomb, this applies until war´s end.

For sure there was a bit of bad luck involved as well.



spence -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/29/2014 10:32:49 AM)

quote:

The code does not treat TBs from either side differently, although the database does. The Allies main weapon is the bomb, this applies until war´s end.


I thought the USN came up with AP bombs. I also thought that the Mark XIII torpedo underwent development during the course of the war that rectified its initial deficiencies in accuracy, launch parameters and in the detonator.

I do think that the IJN torpedo bombers are a bit overpowered. In real life, benefiting from complete tactical surprise, they scored some number of torpedo hits between 15-21 out of 40 launched when attacking in the first wave at Pearl Harbor against moored ships. Subsequently, they scored less than a dozen total hits (2 on Lexington, 2 on Yorktown, 3 on Hornet and a few more). The fact that they didn't do better was only partially because the KB's torpedo bombers were busy practicing the "Midway Debacle" during their time in the DEI and Indian Ocean.

In the game, through multiple sandbox attacks, the Pearl Harbor strike routinely includes 60-80 torpedo armed bombers that score hits 80%+ of the time. In anti ship strikes the game system allows the IJN to double up the size of their strikes (IJN doctrine and the very construction of their carriers allowed for each carrier to launch one strike squadron per wave: either dive bombers or torpedo bombers but not both). It should be recalled that the first "war shots" any IJN torpedo bombers launched were at Battleship Row. They were well trained but if any pilot can gain a 90 experience while in their teens or 20s by peacetime training then there is really no reason why Allied pilots committed to extensive training can not achieve the same "experience".



LoBaron -> RE: American torpedo bombers - Is this a bad roll or normal? (1/29/2014 12:28:04 PM)

Ehhh...yes....
Neither does your post contradict what I wrote, nor is it helpful for the OP in identifying the root cause for his result. What has Dec 7th accuracy got to do with it?

Accuracy is influenced by the database, this is why I specifically pointed out that type of scenario has an impact.



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
1.953125