Why strafing is so useless ? (Full Version)

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Gaspote -> Why strafing is so useless ? (2/4/2014 10:42:06 PM)

Hi,
I'm not complaining just asking if anybody know why strafing is so useless (or totally under historical efficiency).
I understood quickly that strafing was useless and just a way to lose plane but I still don't know why devs (or perhaps bug ?) make the strafing totally unprofitable.

Just some numbers ,

130, it's the number of planes destroyed in Pearl Harbor (according to 8 december scen), the true number is something like 180 but some squadron aren't full at the begining so.

30, it's usually what I got from the first turn as Jap (in PH).

Even considering that dive bomber worked well, the A6M2s are suppose to be really effective as historically. There are not a lot of flaks too so nothing is suppose to reduce their efficiency. But the result is really disapointing.


Flak is anormaly effective too, even with 16 bofors in a hex, you lost half of your squadron in strafing attack. A good strafing attack is suppose to avoid flak, flying a low alt, radar or spotter don't see the attack coming so flak don't shot or don't get efficient result.

In my opinion, even if you don't destroy a lot of planes on the ground, you at least don't lose a lot of planes too.
It mean that fighter become useless in case of air superiority or if ennemy fighters stay on the ground waiting for some bombers to attack.

I've not made a lot of test but it's the same for ground attack except it's effective on disruption.

ps : I don't play AE early so I don't know if peoples complain about it or something else. Although I tried to search but found nothing.



Feltan -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/4/2014 11:14:02 PM)

Pearl Harbor (07 Dec 41) is probably not the best yardstick to measure game strafing versus real life strafing results. The results there were an abnormality due to the disposition of US aircraft.

Regards,
Feltan



geofflambert -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/4/2014 11:50:50 PM)

In a different take, the Pacific is not the ETO where (if you're the allied player) you have Thunderbolts. It's a bad idea (almost always) to waste those well trained fighter pilots to some clown standing on land with a submachine gun. If you have a squadron with the appropriate ground attack aircraft, by all means train some pilots to do that.



mind_messing -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 12:00:25 AM)

The games code does a poor job of representing strafing attacks.

You can send P39's and whatnot after troops, but the impact is minimal and the losses to flak makes it a waste of aircraft.

Pretty much the only time I've used strafing attacks have been against PT boats or Chinese troops in the open.

The only worthwhile exceptions might be the US Marauders armed with excess machine guns and cannons, and perhaps some Japanese two-engine fighters.



rustysi -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 12:26:11 AM)

In AE you have to train pilots in different roles, and one of them is straffing. Now I know the early Japanese pilots have this capability, but these naval fighter jockeys are just too valuable to waste on a ground pounder. I believe you need to be at 100' too in order to get them to straff at all. When I train my fighter pilots the only reason I train in straffing at all is because it seems to bring up the defensive role as well. Still not sure if this is due to training in the secondary role or just the longer length of the training. As far as to the effectiveness of the straffing attack I won't be able to tell until I start playing as the allies. They have higher pilot numbers so I'll check it out when I get to them. Anyway my real point is that as the Japanese player I doubt I would waste any pilots performing straffing.



Alfred -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 12:48:04 AM)

1.  There is no correlation between radar presence and flak effectiveness.

2.  The abstraction loses most of the historical soft skin targets which were straffed.

3.  Very few airframes are classified as FB.

4.  AB do suppress flak and can therefore emulate the straffing role.

5.  Pointless attempting to straff if pilots lack that skill.

6.  Benefits of radial v inline engine not picked up in the abstraction.

Alfred 



mind_messing -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 1:04:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  There is no correlation between radar presence and flak effectiveness.

Alfred 



Got a source for that? My understanding was that radar presence (under the banner of "time until target X minuites" had an impact on all aspects of air combat.



geofflambert -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 1:48:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  There is no correlation between radar presence and flak effectiveness.

2.  The abstraction loses most of the historical soft skin targets which were straffed.

3.  Very few airframes are classified as FB.

4.  AB do suppress flak and can therefore emulate the straffing role.

5.  Pointless attempting to straff if pilots lack that skill.

6.  Benefits of radial v inline engine not picked up in the abstraction.

Alfred 


I don't want to be ignorant, but as a gorn I just can't help it. Strafe has one f, and one f only. Strafing also has one f and one f only.

Point number one raises the question : Is there a correlation between radar and CAP effectiveness? I'm hoping the answer is yes.



crsutton -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 1:50:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  There is no correlation between radar presence and flak effectiveness.

Alfred 



Got a source for that? My understanding was that radar presence (under the banner of "time until target X minuites" had an impact on all aspects of air combat.


No, not flak.

There is really no reason to strafe or to train in it. I tested it a bit some years back and found that it was the bomb that matters.



Alfred -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 1:56:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  There is no correlation between radar presence and flak effectiveness.

Alfred 



Got a source for that? My understanding was that radar presence (under the banner of "time until target X minuites" had an impact on all aspects of air combat.


Only commenting on game treatment as OP wanted to know why game results are as they are.[:)]

Alfred



Alfred -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 1:59:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  There is no correlation between radar presence and flak effectiveness.

2.  The abstraction loses most of the historical soft skin targets which were straffed.

3.  Very few airframes are classified as FB.

4.  AB do suppress flak and can therefore emulate the straffing role.

5.  Pointless attempting to straff if pilots lack that skill.

6.  Benefits of radial v inline engine not picked up in the abstraction.

Alfred 


I don't want to be ignorant, but as a gorn I just can't help it. Strafe has one f, and one f only. Strafing also has one f and one f only.

Point number one raises the question : Is there a correlation between radar and CAP effectiveness? I'm hoping the answer is yes.


I'll take your point on spelling on advisement.[:)]

As to CAP effectiveness, in that instance, yes there is a correlation between the presence, and type, of radar and CAP effectiveness.

Alfred



rustysi -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 2:00:22 AM)

quote:

I don't want to be ignorant, but as a gorn I just can't help it. Strafe has one f, and one f only. Strafing also has one f and one f only.


It takes a Gorn.[:D] Thanks for the correction. I got into a technical field because I can't spell, and there's no spell checker here. Also I refuse to look up every other word up in the dictionary.[:)]



zuluhour -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 2:12:32 AM)

It looks sexier with two F s.



Alfred -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 2:32:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

It looks sexier with two F s.


More teutonic, with perhaps some lederhosen?[:)]

Alfred



geofflambert -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 2:42:29 AM)

These days, with the demise of the printed word looming, dictionaries which were inadequate to begin with may simply cease to exist. We will have to fall back on the OED. I'd like to credit the history of most American dictionaries in their attention to etymology. It is rather difficult to find dictionaries of other than English but European languages that even include any etymologies at all. I find this appalling. If you don't know the etymology of a word, you really don't understand the meaning of the word, either currently or in the past. English is truly a great language, in my view the greatest of all in part because it blends Greek and Latin and German and Celtic and Arabic and every other language on Earth. Seriously, the people we call great authors today will seem like silly fools because we no longer understand the meaning of words. I raise my glass of Pinot Grigio to words!



erstad -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 3:04:16 AM)

The Urban Dictionary definition of "straff" uses words I don't, and which would not be consistent with forum rules in any case. Despite that, the definition could be considered consistent with Alfred's usage [:D], especially

quote:

The abstraction loses most of the historical soft skin targets which were straffed.


I'm all for "soft skin", but using terms like "targets" seems a little ungentlemanly.





obvert -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 5:56:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  There is no correlation between radar presence and flak effectiveness.

Alfred 



Got a source for that? My understanding was that radar presence (under the banner of "time until target X minuites" had an impact on all aspects of air combat.


No, not flak.

There is really no reason to strafe or to train in it. I tested it a bit some years back and found that it was the bomb that matters.


Well, training strafing itself for strafing might not be so useful, but training sweep at 100ft is the quickest method to improve defensive skill in fighter pilots.



Encircled -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 8:56:39 AM)

Vital for training in defensive skill.

Would strafing still have an effect on the supply of the unit being strafed?



Barb -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 9:59:02 AM)

And on top of that - you can effectively strafe only small amount of troops - because in existing code every single squad in a 40-mile hex will shoot (albeit not very effectively) at your strafing planes. And with several thousands of squads you will eventually get way too many damaged planes ...

That said, I would not try it with Japanese planes (without armor and low durability), but only with allies, with planes as P-39s or attack bombers, and against small enemy garrisons - at best case already without supplies [:D]

In game terms: it is generally not very advisable to fly at 100ft against enemy CAP, flak and fully supplied troops ... [;)]



CT Grognard -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 10:12:33 AM)

strafe (v.), 1915, "punish, attack, bomb heavily", picked up by British soldiers from German strafen "to punish", in slogan Gott strafe England "May God punish England," current in Germany c. 1914-16 at the start of the Great War. The word was used for many kinds of attacks at first; the meaning of "shoot up ground positions from low-flying aircraft" emerged as the main sense in 1942.



Feltan -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 1:12:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I don't want to be ignorant, but as a gorn I just can't help it. Strafe has one f, and one f only. Strafing also has one f and one f only.




I thought so.

All the girls say a gorn just can't handle two f's.

Regards,
Feltan



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 4:27:21 PM)

Strafing with armor=0 planes is a costly mistake



crsutton -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 4:30:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  There is no correlation between radar presence and flak effectiveness.

Alfred 



Got a source for that? My understanding was that radar presence (under the banner of "time until target X minuites" had an impact on all aspects of air combat.


No, not flak.

There is really no reason to strafe or to train in it. I tested it a bit some years back and found that it was the bomb that matters.


Well, training strafing itself for strafing might not be so useful, but training sweep at 100ft is the quickest method to improve defensive skill in fighter pilots.


Yes, I sometimes do this if I have the luxury.



Gaspote -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 4:32:59 PM)

Nobody know the reason ? Dev never explain why they chose to model strafing like this ? [&:]



Alfred -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 4:34:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  There is no correlation between radar presence and flak effectiveness.

Alfred 



Got a source for that? My understanding was that radar presence (under the banner of "time until target X minuites" had an impact on all aspects of air combat.


Only commenting on game treatment as OP wanted to know why game results are as they are.[:)]

Alfred


Hmm, upon rereading, I may have misunderstood the question and what was meant was did I have a source for how AE treats it.

That being so, I am somewhat surprised at the inference that I made up the statement out of thin air. I would have thought that forumites could rely upon my accuracy. It is always preferable to have a relevant dev posting answers but in their absence, there are a few regulars who, whilst not devs themselves, can usually be relied upon to be accurate.

1. There is no mention in the manual of radar influencing ground AA fire against aircraft.

2. The manual makes two references of where radar can influence combat operations:

(a) s.7.4.1.1 which deals exclusively with CAP, and
(b) s.10.3 which deals exclusively with naval surface combat and the attempt to increase individual ship detection levels

3. I have never found any dev stating that radar influences ground AA fire against aircraft.

4. Of the threads where devs do talk about radar, this one is the most relevant.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2664947&mpage=1&key=radar�

Look for JWE's post. Pretty clear from his post that radar can impact on CAP and naval combat. Nothing else is covered. This is quite consistent with the manual.

5. On 28 September 2009, another key dev, TheElf stated the following:

"Radar detects Airplanes. The longer the range the sooner it does so. The higher the effect the more accurate the data and the better your CAP will perform. There really isn't much more to it."

Again quite consistent with the manual.

6. Hexes containing ground units with no radar but equipped with the Mark I eyeball and some AA devices do fire at incoming enemy bombers.

7. Hexes containing ground units with radar and equipped with some AA devices do not fire at enemy fighters sweeping.

Alfred



Alfred -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 4:39:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

Nobody know the reason ? Dev never explain why they chose to model strafing like this ? [&:]


Did you read my post #6.

If so, please explain how, under those circumstances, what you want could be achieved. The conditions just do not exist. There are many things in the game which are, by necessity abstracted/simplified, in order to produce a commercial product which would be playable to more than 17 people on the planet.

Alfred



Gaspote -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 5:53:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

Nobody know the reason ? Dev never explain why they chose to model strafing like this ? [&:]


Did you read my post #6.

If so, please explain how, under those circumstances, what you want could be achieved. The conditions just do not exist. There are many things in the game which are, by necessity abstracted/simplified, in order to produce a commercial product which would be playable to more than 17 people on the planet.

Alfred


I understand that reason is game balance.

But I don't think improving strafing should ruin game balance.

I just think strafing could be improve in order to change a bit gameplay, even without increasing the result, just reducing the effect of flak on strafing airplanes could be great. In order to give a role to fighter in case of air superiority and for suppressing flak during bombing (it already the case but you just avoid the lose of 4 bombers for the price of 15 fighters [:(]).

IMO not having strafing attack is like not having sweep. It's deleting one of the three main missions of fighters. I really understand that in real life it's tricky but in game,it's not tricky, it's useless.



pontiouspilot -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 6:08:48 PM)

Geoff....did you mean OCD in the 2nd line of your above note??!!



geofflambert -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 8:27:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred



Hmm, upon rereading, I may have misunderstood the question and what was meant was did I have a source for how AE treats it.

That being so, I am somewhat surprised at the inference that I made up the statement out of thin air. I would have thought that forumites could rely upon my accuracy. It is always preferable to have a relevant dev posting answers but in their absence, there are a few regulars who, whilst not devs themselves, can usually be relied upon to be accurate.

Alfred



Hey I make stuff up all the time, whether it's out of thin air or thick. I can even do it in a complete vacuum. No snide remarks about what's betwixt my ears.[:-]



geofflambert -> RE: Why strafing is so useless ? (2/5/2014 8:28:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Geoff....did you mean OCD in the 2nd line of your above note??!!


the Oxford English Dictionary.


Do you mean Obsessive Compulsive Disorder? You need to use a smiley when you go over my head like that.[8|]



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