So, What is the point of common resources (Full Version)

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akvilonn -> So, What is the point of common resources (2/10/2014 8:54:38 PM)

So what is the point of the resources (besides luxury)?

I have only one home planet, played through 15 years, and I am into tens/hundreds of thousands of lead, steel, gold, iridium units, etc.

Now, to build a LARGE spaceport with all upgrades that I have, it, for example costs 400 gold 340 lead and other low measures. So, with only one planet's natural resources I could possibly build 200 large spaceports, only maintenance -money limits it.

Now with private sector expending to new moons and building new stations, population growing, I will have unlimited fuel (I understand hydrogen in the game universe being abundant, duh!), raw resources and ship building capabilities etc. It is only limited by money.

So what the hell is the purpose of those resources, an eye candy?
What would be point of mining common moon with metals if I have too much and nothing to spend it on?

If I had the money, I could build thousands low/medium tech ships with only few star systems.

Discuss.




CyclopsSlayer -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/10/2014 9:23:51 PM)

If it were only Steel and such then yes you are right.
Add in Chromium, Dilithium, and such and and they can be anything but common. As well, some of my larger Carriers and Capital ships use more resources than a Large port.



Ardilus -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/10/2014 9:33:23 PM)

Play some more -- you will find that shortages are by no means uncommon, especially in the critical early game. Galactic shortages do happen and can lead to high prices that will impact both purchasing costs for your assets as well as your private economy. You can lay siege to rival empires that you are yet strong enough to invade by taking out their mining stations on the more rare strategic resources, such as carbon fiber. Resources of all types are traded between empires. Much of what sits in your stockpile was purchased (privately) from other empires, and thus directly affects your economy.Also timing is everything, and it takes time to move resources around between stations and colonies.



akvilonn -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/11/2014 12:04:58 AM)

Ardilus, so the economy in the game regarding those common resources is dynamic?
If so, I had no idea about private sector trading with other empires - I did not yet discover any, besides ships from neutral ones.
I thought my stockpiles increase 'cause of population growth and the sole private commerce.

@ CyclopsSlayer - I am yet to get to the late game, will see if common resources become uncommon.
I still think great engineering achievements and creating large fleets would suck up more resources than just controlling it by money as game engine does.



Ardilus -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/11/2014 2:07:06 AM)

Oh yes! The economic simulation is probably the most realistic of any 4X that I've played. You can monitor current prices in the Expansion Planner tab. Build costs are determined by the total cost of all materials required, and follows basic supply and demand. Generally these do remain pretty stable, but I've played maps where prices on even more common materials like gold have gone nuts for a while. When you get into the late-game, we're talking hundreds of ships getting built, blown up quickly, rebuilt, repeat. Resource availability can bottleneck, and you can find yourself with a large construction queue that can at times can take years to reconcile.

Population growth has no impact on resource stockpiles. Everything is done through mining and trading with independents or rivals. You are given a healthy stockpile at the game start, but don't go too long without developing. These details become very apparent when attempting to manually control constructors, which I prefer to do up until mid-game or so (which I define as being that point where empire borders have been well established).



Ralzakark -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/11/2014 4:25:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: akvilonn
If so, I had no idea about private sector trading with other empires - I did not yet discover any, besides ships from neutral ones.


Hit F11 to see all your ship and bases, select your mines and look at their cargo tabs. Each resource is preceded by an empire's flag, meaning that amount is reserved for that empire. You will often see other empire's flags.



Bingeling -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/11/2014 9:04:42 AM)

Also, in early to mid game, notice your freighters heading out of the empire, or returning from foreign lands with cargo. They are of course doing that most if not all of the game, but it is easier to spot with the skies somewhat empty.

This does of course not happen until you know of some foreign sources for stuff.



akvilonn -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/12/2014 2:44:05 AM)

Thank you for tips.
So, has Helium ever run out for anybody or other common elements shortages?

quote:

I've played maps where prices on even more common materials like gold have gone nuts for a while.

Yes, Ardilus, I am yet to get there, the middle game, but did it make any real difference for economy?

I guess my point is - wouldn't it be better if resources were either finite (like in space empires) or just less of it gained (e.g. through gas/mining stations),
that way I could actually care what planet to colonize or conquer for its precious resources. You know, like in a real war.

Now, year 30 in my campaign I have colonized about four planets and private sector expending nicely, and resources mean little besides few special ones. (playing normal/expensive research). I see little point to target planet for its resource.

Just a suggestion, that's what my topic is about.



DeadlyShoe -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/12/2014 6:55:33 AM)

Most things do make a difference to the economy, it's just often opaque to the player until you hit critical shortages. And in Shadows if you hit critical shortages you can solve them with smuggling.

In the later game you will often suffer resource shortages, particularly *local* resource shortages in empires grown larger. It doesn't matter much that you have access to a resource if it has to be transported from across the empire; your freighters get tied up shipping Caslon 5 sectors away. Local supplies of resources alleviate this and I often contract out batches of mining stations to create local supplies of goods.

The private sector does probably create too many mining stations, though. Often what locks up your freighter network.



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/12/2014 3:51:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadlyShoe

Most things do make a difference to the economy, it's just often opaque to the player until you hit critical shortages. And in Shadows if you hit critical shortages you can solve them with smuggling.

In the later game you will often suffer resource shortages, particularly *local* resource shortages in empires grown larger. It doesn't matter much that you have access to a resource if it has to be transported from across the empire; your freighters get tied up shipping Caslon 5 sectors away. Local supplies of resources alleviate this and I often contract out batches of mining stations to create local supplies of goods.

The private sector does probably create too many mining stations, though. Often what locks up your freighter network.

That is why endgame I prefer fewer, larger, Shipyards. Shipyards stockpile resources so if you were to say have 100 Colonies each with its own yards, your freighters will be busy spreading the resources between all the yards leading to many local shortages when trying to upgrade or build that new fleet. The same 100 colonies feeding say 5-6 yard clusters can more easily keep supplied locally.



Ardilus -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/13/2014 5:17:22 AM)

quote:

Yes, Ardilus, I am yet to get there, the middle game, but did it make any real difference for economy?


Undoubtedly. There is the obvious direct effect of paying more for assets, though most price fluctuations are admittedly minor. On rare occasions, however, you can see some serious inflation. If carbon fiber triples in my current game, for example (and I've seen worse), my cost to build military ships goes up about 15%. There are less obvious, indirect effects as well. Your private economy will suffer not only paying higher prices if you do not have sources, but cost increases mean galactic shortages -- those long construction queues not getting resolved for months or years also include your freighters trying to upgrade. If you take half your freighters out of commission for a year, you will feel in all kinds of nasty ways, and for a long time.

quote:

I guess my point is - wouldn't it be better if resources were either finite (like in space empires) or just less of it gained (e.g. through gas/mining stations),
that way I could actually care what planet to colonize or conquer for its precious resources. You know, like in a real war.


Actually resources are finite. You can see this on your colonies, for example, by looking at the <resources> tab on the colonies screen.

I often target colonies for rare strategic resources like chromium. But, of course, in a real war sometimes you just need to occupy Midway Island for it's location.

You will want to keep in mind as well that as your tech increases, required construction resources change. As a gratuitous example, in my current game all my cruisers are equipped with super death rays, and as such require more iridium and dillithium each than steel! If I do not have lots of dillithium sources, which are pretty uncommon, I can run into real trouble.

With all that said, DeadlyShoe sums up very well the trouble with resources on the local level, which is usually the big concern.

quote:

Now, year 30 in my campaign I have colonized about four planets and private sector expending nicely, and resources mean little besides few special ones. (playing normal/expensive research). I see little point to target planet for its resource.


Forgive my saying so, but only 4 colonies in 30 years is without question a losing game. I don't see your empire able to support the force sizes that would make either local or global shortages much of an issue, but it probably won't matter when the Sluken find you [:D]





mbk2043 -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/16/2014 5:00:50 AM)

I don't think planets have finite resources. I've tinkered with the editor and set a moon to have only 1k of steel. I ran the game a few years and reopened editor to find the same moon now had 16k of steel still on it. I know in the modern era new resources can be discovered. But by the time of interstellar travel the ability to do a complete geological survey of a planet would seem easy. I would like resources to count down to zero.



Ardilus -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/17/2014 6:21:28 AM)

Yeah you're right, now I'm stumped. It looks like the figure might show gross output at that location. Colonies do eventually generate resource exhaustion events; are these random with increasing probability over time?



Bingeling -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/17/2014 7:18:44 AM)

Resources also appear through events.

One main benefit of lots of more or lets common resources, is that it makes the galaxy alive with a host of freighters ferrying them around :)



Ardilus -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/17/2014 7:39:52 PM)

So, in curiosity, I've tested a few maps from "quick start" with fully developed empires, and galactic price inflation is definitely an issue for late games. Perhaps intuitively, it is a matter of how developed the galaxy is (which will depend on system count), and in these games almost all strategic resources have increased prices at triple or more of their base price. This means, of course, triple the cost to build everything. I have not yet looked at the effect, if any, of price inflation on maintenance costs.



Phier -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/24/2014 3:23:31 PM)

I'm a new player, but I find the common resource issues tend to be location, location, location. Giant stockpiles need to get to worlds so shortages are local problems, but can be big problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mbk2043

I don't think planets have finite resources. I've tinkered with the editor and set a moon to have only 1k of steel. I ran the game a few years and reopened editor to find the same moon now had 16k of steel still on it. I know in the modern era new resources can be discovered. But by the time of interstellar travel the ability to do a complete geological survey of a planet would seem easy. I would like resources to count down to zero.


I had read that resources do "respawn" so you can't really run out without a specific event.

I'm kinda glad for that because it would be rather unrealistic if you ran out of common resources in the galaxy on most materials unless your ships are to scale [:'(]




Canute0 -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/24/2014 4:11:26 PM)

Ohh don't give the devs some stupids ideas !
A real resource shortage instead just a distribution problems.:-)
But it would be a nice scenario when all or most resources are limited. You would need to build new mining station all over the map or use more mining ships.
Gas clouds would stop existing , asteroid belts collapse and planets are swiss cheese or vanish too ! :-)
That reminde me at Star Ruler, when i try to build a Ringworld on a smaller map.



HTG -> RE: So, What is the point of common resources (2/28/2014 11:49:48 AM)

From my experience the problem with resources is their distribution. For example: In my home system with my capital I have lots of gas-mining and mining stations. one of the gas-mining stations has > 200000 units of Krypton in its storage. But when I retrofitted some of the mining stations in the same system for a few I got the message that it has not enough Krypton to finish the retrofit and it took quite some time until a freighter delivered the required Krypton.
When starting to colonize a new System there are similar problems with required resources.
Overall, resource-management in the games still needs improvement. I know, that the automatic resource management is by far not an easy task to design. I would like try that myself sometime, but afaik Distant Worlds doesn't allow that deep customization or does it?



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