RE: First Impressions, please!

RE: First Impressions, please! (Full Version)

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fentum -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 1:31:43 PM)
Yes. I enjoy the game but I do miss a 'final op fire' concept like the one in BOB:SE. This allows even finished units to fire if an enemy moves adjacent.

Barthheart -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 1:33:29 PM)
Yep, it will not appeal to everyone. That's a given about every game. As for your points 1, 2 and 3 I tend to look at a turn as everything happening all at once. So you see a squad running into the street, drawing fire and the enemy then sits on his hands. To me, it's a squad runs into the street draws fire and the attention of the enemy. While that is happening another squad runs into a different part of the same street hex, each hex is 50 metres or 165 feet across, while the enemy is focused on the first group. I look at a turn as 2- 4 minutes of continuous action that is resolved in small chunks (impulses) but is really all happening at once. But everyone looks at games differently. Enjoy the games you like for the reasons you like them..

Barthheart -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 1:38:05 PM)
Oops, forgot your comment about melee. Melee, in this game, is not necessarily about hand to hand combat. There's enough space in a hex that the two forces could a hundred feet apart shooting at each and throwing hand grenades. Just a different way of thinking of thing.

z1812 -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 1:40:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron quote: ORIGINAL: Barthheart Sorry you didn't like the game redmarkus. HoS was never intended to be a detailed simulation of infantry tactics in WWII. It is intended to be a squad level combat game set in WWII. Actually after reading the AAR and watching the two videos in another thread this morning, I have to second what Redmarkus said as that is the overwhelmingly impression I get as well. I think everyone has certain perceptions on WWII combat, but your statement seems very misleading. It should read: quote: It is intended to be a squad level fantasy game set in WWII. Ironically what caught my eye initially was the lovely maps and artwork, brought back a sense of nostalgia I guess. However, once I started to learn more re the gameplay, it did more than raise an eyebrow. 1. Units moving with relative impunity in open terrain towards the enemy, even to point blank range. 2. Drawing fire by said movement in order to magically render that enemy unit incapable of responding further. 3. Entering into Melee combat with said enemy to dispatch it, seemingly the preferred(!) method of eliminating the enemy in this game. What about fire and movement? Area fire into suspected enemy locations, basic lessons on infantry tactics learned from WWI etc. Surely the 'training' and methods employed weren't let's charge them and close assault as accepted practice put forward here! [&:] The WWII wrapping is pretty thin. I know I will get blasted for this and obviously this game is 'fun' for some and not for me, but to imply realistic WWII tactics are represented is a fallacy. Thank you for your post Ron. It is nice to get objective information. This is why I will wait before I buy. Right now the game is in its Honeymoon period with players and information might be the product of a rose coloured point of view and/or, inexperience. Some truly like the game and that's great. It is nice to see people enjoying it.

jwarrenw13 -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 5:45:22 PM)
I don't really understand what is essentially a simulation vs. game/realism vs. gameplay argument. LNL is a game. It is a computer conversion of the popular and award-winning boardgame system. It advertises "ease of play and immersive format." The advertising focuses on gameplay, not realism or simulation quality. And as always, there will be some who like it and some who don't. Try to make it more "realistic" and more of a similation, and it will possibly lose some of the very qualities that people who like the system enjoy. There will always be one more thing that could be added to the game. I'm quite happy with it as it is and with trying to win this game within the constraints of scenario conditions and the rules of the game. Sure there are things that are not realistic. There are dice rolling on my computer screen, for example. All arguments of lack of realism are likely valid, but do they improve the GAME? In the end it is a matter of preference. I know where to go for more (and less) realistic games.

Missouri_Rebel -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 6:03:19 PM)
quote: Sure there are things that are not realistic. There are dice rolling on my computer screen, for example. I'd say that the dice adds to the realism. Well except for the fact only a noob would roll his dice all over the boards. [:-] There are many players, myself included, that are interested in boardgame adaptions. That is where the strength of HoS is. We've played them in many incarnations through the years and now have an excellent example of what they can be. I agree with you, the simulation vs, boardgame debate misses the mark by a long shot. What HoS does, it does well. And that is fill a void amongst all the other types of wargames including simulations, strategic, operational, real time tactical etc.. mo reb

Missouri_Rebel -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 6:05:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fentum Yes. I enjoy the game but I do miss a 'final op fire' concept like the one in BOB:SE. This allows even finished units to fire if an enemy moves adjacent. And also ASL

Gerry4321 -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 6:09:25 PM)
Interesting discussion. I like BarthHeart's idea of simultaneous actions. Even ASL should be considered this way I think. You send out the HSs to find the enemy also in ASL. This simulates scouting. If you want to see a simulation of scouting instead of a game you could try Combat Mission. It is brutally detailed and a simulation. I therefore find it more work than fun. You think your units will see X when they get to Point A. However, there is a little dip in the ground there so they won't see diddly. Is that realistic? Not 100% actually as in RL the unit would nudge forward a few feet until they see X. I haven't bought the game yet but that is about me. I have too many computer games already that I do not play. So I am cautious about any other game. Take care, Gerry

aaatoysandmore -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 7:04:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: z1812 quote: ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 quote: ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 Just played it again. On T6 the girl ran into a house next to a Soviet unit. I moved Wurtz there but before he could take command of her and move her to safety, she was killed by Soviet fire. Immediate defeat. All other achievements irrelevant. Damn it. I'm tired of complaining on these forums and sounding like a psycho. Uninstall and back to real life for me! Wow the game is that hard for you? I haven't met a game yet that I couldn't eventually beat. I really gota get this one as it sounds better than Pandora. Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL That's the problem you are applying modern day tactics in a WWII game. You need to play like a WWII leader or commander would have. They DID send out scouts to find out a snipers position or other troops and if he got shot they knew where they were. [:D] You can't be a nice guy in WAR. It's dog eat dog and kill or be killed. None of this "but, they are my men" they're just chits on a shingle to me and I probably have one of the worst troop lost records on the books, but, I win. [:D] @aaatoysandmore: Redmarkus has definitely been around the block a few more times than you when it comes to wargaming and I daresay in the real world Military. So when it comes to a point of view, I will respect his and not yours. Wasn't it McAulliffe who sent back the message "NUTS" to the German commander. Consider yourself served. [:D]

Richie61 -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 7:51:39 PM)
LMAO over some people who have issues with the game. Real life vs HoS. LOL! It's a 100% complete board game conversion! It's not Squad Leader, Advanced SL, Combat Commander, Band of Brothers or Conflict of Heroes. It's LnL's board game converted to PC [;)] Enjoy the board game on your PC [:D]

Charly G -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 8:11:34 PM)
Great game. If you have played Conflict of Heroes and enjoy it, I think it's for you, it's different and just slightly more difficult than CoH. They are the only complete board game conversion at squad level.

markhwalker -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 8:50:43 PM)
quote: The advertising focuses on gameplay, not realism or simulation quality. And as always, there will be some who like it and some who don't. Try to make it more "realistic" and more of a simulation, and it will possibly lose some of the very qualities that people who like the system enjoy. The thought of realism vs gameplay always makes me chuckle. It's as if a game that uses multiple charts, caliber calculations, and minutia is somehow more realistic. I believe LnL is an incredibly realistic depiction of squad-level combat. War is chaos, not the well ordered game boards of our game tables. War isn't decided by rate of fire, but rather humans, heroes and cowards (although we are all cowards at one time or another). Skirmishes, indeed entire battles, are decided by the most improbable of circumstances at the most unlikely of times. People say LnL feels like Hollywood. I say their wrong. What it feels like is life, real life.

Grotius -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 8:51:45 PM)
I'm also enjoying it. It's not a perfect simulation of real-world tactics, but then no turn-based game is. Every system has its strength and weaknesses: the strong command-and-control system of "Fields of Fire" is offset by the lack of a real map and other abstractions; ASL's complexity is offset by its relatively weak command-and-control system; and LnL, like ASL, gives the player more perfect information and control than a real-world commander is likely to have enjoyed. I'm playing on Hard, incidentally, and I haven't won a scenario yet. I'm liking the challenge.

aaatoysandmore -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/15/2014 9:24:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: markhwalker quote: The advertising focuses on gameplay, not realism or simulation quality. And as always, there will be some who like it and some who don't. Try to make it more "realistic" and more of a simulation, and it will possibly lose some of the very qualities that people who like the system enjoy. The thought of realism vs gameplay always makes me chuckle. It's as if a game that uses multiple charts, caliber calculations, and minutia is somehow more realistic. I believe LnL is an incredibly realistic depiction of squad-level combat. War is chaos, not the well ordered game boards of our game tables. War isn't decided by rate of fire, but rather humans, heroes and cowards (although we are all cowards at one time or another). Skirmishes, indeed entire battles, are decided by the most improbable of circumstances at the most unlikely of times. People say LnL feels like Hollywood. I say their wrong. What it feels like is life, real life. I'm wit you Mark I always laugh at those that get a head stream over realism. They have no clue what real war is. It's certainly not charts and paper and dice rolls. It's heart and courage and blood n guts. It's eating your daily meal out of a can and possibly cold. It's taking a shower and shave out of your helmet. Realism hahhaaha no game has really come close. The only reason they scream realism to me is to boast and puff how they know the armor thickness of blah blah. The calibur of a weapon or shell. The dotrine of strategy & tactics of their national military. Thas all. Many know nothing of "real" warfare, none at all. But, put it to paper and they can throw those realistic numbers at you left and right what the side armor of a panzer should be. lol

eddie01 -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/16/2014 4:04:29 AM)
Just getting started with this game, and enjoying it! A Lot ot learn as far as good tactics, but that will come with time! Congrats to everyone who put all the time in to bring this to the PC! Loving the combat chaos a lot,lol eddie

Gizuria -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/16/2014 10:59:15 AM)
Having downloaded it, completed all the tutorials and read the manual, I set about tackling a couple of missions this afternoon. The first, A Partisan Defence as the Germans played at Normal difficulty and the second, Ambush! as the Russians at Hard difficulty. I had an absolute blast playing both. I won the first mission on the very last turn. It was a tough fight but I prevailed. I felt like I had to work for my win and not exploit the AI which seems really good. That gave me the confidence to 'kick off ther stabilisers', so to speak, and play my next game at Hard. I lost every single man in that one, save for the scout who exited off the board before he too could get slaughtered. This is an amazing title. I'd never heard of Lock 'n Load before and only noticed the release because it jumped to the very top of the Matrix boards and I took a peak. Sorry Mark, but it looked and read so much like ASL that I decided to investigate it and bought it. Okay, so ASL it isn't but it's about as close as we're going to get until someone does a proper conversion of ASL. While it bears a superficial resemblence to ASL, it really is very different but in very good ways. On the other hand, it's sufficiently like ASL that I can't believe that it will be long before we start seeing lots of ASL mission conversions for this title. I know that I'm going to convert the scenarios I made for ASL myself as well as some of my own CMBB missions. But until they get the editor properly documented, I'm going to play this, and play this. BTW, I'd really appreciate it if you could also extend the editor's functionality to allow us to create campaigns. I already have a very cool idea for a German campaign. [;)] One final suggestion. Smoke. The chances of placing it are so low that it's unlikely that I'll waste a unit's turn often to try placing it. Perhaps it would be good to create a Smoke Canister SW counter that could be placed with 100% reliability instead? But I guess that's not in the 'real' game.

jwarrenw13 -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/16/2014 3:02:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog On the other hand, it's sufficiently like ASL that I can't believe that it will be long before we start seeing lots of ASL mission conversions for this title. I know that I'm going to convert the scenarios I made for ASL myself as well as some of my own CMBB missions. But until they get the editor properly documented, I'm going to play this, and play this. The Guards Counterattack.

Sabre21 -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/16/2014 3:04:43 PM)
Well...for those that talk about realism, when the dice rolls across the map it could have a chance of knocking a few counters out of place...now that would be realism...lol.

chemkid -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/16/2014 3:11:10 PM)
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Rake -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/16/2014 3:23:25 PM)
I've been looking at (and waiting for) this game since the forum first appeared. After checking out a couple of youtube videos, I purchased and, so far, have not been disappointed. As others have said, this game reminds me more of ASL than any other to date. The game play has been relatively simple to pick up and the challenge of A Partisan Defense (on "normal") was good - I lost on my first attempt when Elana killed a squad in melee... one more turn and I'd have won easily, the VL's were open and my teams all fell one hex short of reaching the victory hexes. I also couldn't figure out how to use the mortar indirectly until afterwards when I started reading the manual. It would be nice to have some documentation for the editor. [&:] 4 out of 5, so far! [&o]

Rake -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/16/2014 3:28:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog One final suggestion. Smoke. The chances of placing it are so low that it's unlikely that I'll waste a unit's turn often to try placing it. Perhaps it would be good to create a Smoke Canister SW counter that could be placed with 100% reliability instead? But I guess that's not in the 'real' game. I wasted a couple of turns in Partisan Defense trying to place smoke... I don't know that 100% is accurate, but I would think pioneers should have better than a 50% cahnce

aaatoysandmore -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/16/2014 3:53:46 PM)
The one thing I really miss though is the Les the Sarge counter from SL. It was always my favorite counter and the story behind my aar's back in the day.

moet -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/17/2014 1:53:18 AM)
Let's talk about improving the (board and video) game instead of realism. Why not: - Make possible a "suppressive fire" order on an unspotted hex to give an eventual enemy there a -2 penalty (or so) to his opportunity fire in the same turn. It feels strange that a MG (even worse in case of a tank!) can't neutralize a building from which could come enemy fire. - Let any shaken enemy react , with a -2 penalty (or so), to any first melee in its hex. It's hard to believe that no guys will use their weapons against enemies entering their hex. With this, IMO, players would get all the tools they are used to use in WWII context without altering the character of LnL BoH series. :)

Barthheart -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/17/2014 4:45:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: moet Let's talk about improving the (board and video) game instead of realism. Why not: - Make possible a "suppressive fire" order on an unspotted hex to give an eventual enemy there a -2 penalty (or so) to his opportunity fire in the same turn. It feels strange that a MG (even worse in case of a tank!) can't neutralize a building from which could come enemy fire. - Let any shaken enemy react , with a -2 penalty (or so), to any first melee in its hex. It's hard to believe that no guys will use their weapons against enemies entering their hex. With this, IMO, players would get all the tools they are used to use in WWII context without altering the character of LnL BoH series. :) But both of those change do alter the character of the LnL BoH series. They have never been in the game before.

moet -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/17/2014 10:59:18 AM)
It could improve the game while maintaining its consistency. [:)]

markhwalker -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/17/2014 11:01:45 AM)
quote: Perhaps it would be good to create a Smoke Canister SW counter that could be placed with 100% reliability instead? But I guess that's not in the 'real' game. Hmmm... That is a VERY good idea. Let's see what I can do for future scenarios.

Noypi53 -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/17/2014 11:05:03 AM)
Two questions: 1. For those who have played the board game, how does the PC version compare to that? 2. What's the next planned expansion for Lock 'N Load PC?

Werewolf13 -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/17/2014 4:59:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: z1812 quote: ORIGINAL: Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL Hence my question about area fire in another post. I enjoy games where, given the limitations of a wargame, real world tactics such as fire and maneuver are rewarded. This doesn't mean to say it is not a fun game. It doesn't even mean I won't buy it. It does mean I will watch the forum closely to be sure of what I am getting should I decide to buy. ^^^^ Same camp that I am in... And I do agree with RedMarkus - having to send a unit out to draw enemy fire in order to spot them is an unnecessarily gamey technique to have to use. Area fire that suppresses enemy units to a lesser degree if not spotted than if spotted is more realistic and IMO a more satisfying tactic. The beauty of PC gaming is one can dispense with the gamey stuff that was necessary with a board game because now the PC can do all the calculations no one wanted to do with a board game.

Sabre21 -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/17/2014 6:41:50 PM)
When I first played the game a dew days ago it caught me a bit off guard that the Soviet AI would send a single squad out and once I fired on it they would send another out until all my units fired then the rest would move. Having spent much time in the army (26 years - 8 in the infantry), I thought that's not really the tactical way you would do things. So it is pretty gamey to send a squad out to draw fire. It would be nice to be able to use suppressive fires of some type. Regardless, I am getting a hoot of the game :)

Jeffrey H. -> RE: First Impressions, please! (2/17/2014 6:50:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326 quote: ORIGINAL: z1812 quote: ORIGINAL: Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL Hence my question about area fire in another post. I enjoy games where, given the limitations of a wargame, real world tactics such as fire and maneuver are rewarded. This doesn't mean to say it is not a fun game. It doesn't even mean I won't buy it. It does mean I will watch the forum closely to be sure of what I am getting should I decide to buy. ^^^^ Same camp that I am in... And I do agree with RedMarkus - having to send a unit out to draw enemy fire in order to spot them is an unnecessarily gamey technique to have to use. Area fire that suppresses enemy units to a lesser degree if not spotted than if spotted is more realistic and IMO a more satisfying tactic. The beauty of PC gaming is one can dispense with the gamey stuff that was necessary with a board game because now the PC can do all the calculations no one wanted to do with a board game. It does seem to be a gap going from board to computer, that is hidden units. It's never really 'fun' IMO in a FTF board game to have to track hidden units or to deal with some of the other compromises, (cover counters, false unit stacks, sighting rolls, etc) but somehow on a computer game, it's expceted to have the AI or your opponnet using hidden units. I do agree about the supressive fire option when there are truly hidden units. Of course you reveal yourself doing so, but hey at least you can keep the heads down of anyone unlucky enough to in that hex. Cover an advance for instance. Does make sense.

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