RE: Russian Supply Problems (Full Version)

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morvael -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/26/2014 8:13:12 PM)

You should have enough supplies, in my game I had 80k production on turn 51. What is the size of your army? Men, guns, afv, aircraft, number of units, airgroups, number of cavalry units?



morvael -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/26/2014 8:47:41 PM)

Joel pulled last two saves. Perhaps I will be able to examine them tomorrow (in 24 hours from now).



Oshawott -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/26/2014 9:42:21 PM)

quote:

You should have enough supplies, in my game I had 80k production on turn 51. What is the size of your army? Men, guns, afv, aircraft, number of units, airgroups, number of cavalry units?


Army is huge and very unhistorical. However, I don't think that is the problem. On turn 54 I have 65th Army 10 hexes west of Moscow. All the little towns have supplies in them. However, 65th Army does not link to any supply source. It only links to a fuel source.



[image]local://upfiles/46668/FAB6BAF1D1D34896A0DCFD11E9CCB578.jpg[/image]



Oshawott -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/26/2014 9:51:05 PM)

quote:

Did you by any chance relocate a lot of HI to the same location?


I mostly ignored HI in 41 but I did move Leningrad and some other HI if I remember correct. But not all to one city. The two cities with most HI are Ufa and Molotov but they don't have an unusual amount of supplies (5000 and 9000).



Oshawott -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/26/2014 10:00:50 PM)

I don't want to go off topic but is the Light Tank situation in the following screenshot normal? I don't have a single unit for T70? I have plenty of brigades and 11 tank corps. Do they need to upgrade their TOE and when does that happen?



[image]local://upfiles/46668/2AA814B0F2D64303942BF5A5E26E6C38.jpg[/image]

Edit: I got the first 3 units available for T70. Interestingly, they are Cav Corps. I guess it is just a matter of time to make the switch from T60 to T70.



morvael -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/27/2014 6:36:20 PM)

I have examined the saves and I see that the problem comes from requests from HQs to cities being too aggressive (too big) when compared what the HQs actually ask for later in the supply phase. It looks like the armies like to have 2-3 times the number of supplies that they really want. The problem is it's hard to nail the correct value, because city resupply is done before upgrades and replacements. Which means there has to be some extra included in case some units will get massive replacements (mostly due to TOE upgrade - especially a newly converted corps from brigades). That's why you start hitting such problem when the global supply stock is about 200-300% of the need (this % is calculated after the cities have been stocked). I think I can safely reduce this value from the 2x-3x range to 1.5x range and the supply system will continue to work with lower overall supply percentages. Of course the city supply system should be fixed to deal with shortages, but for now reducing the multiplier will help, unless someone will be really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Anyway, I have noticed that you have some tank brigades (converted from Tank Divisions) that are attached to STAVKA but kept far away from it, who are thus unable to return extra stocks they have (besides they have low chances to pass any leader rolls: morale 50%, initiative 53.3%, admin 53.3%, mech 43.7% with a nominally 8/8/7/7 leader), so it's better to attach them to some other HQ or keep them closer to STAVKA.

Keep an eye on supply levels, as out of 108k total supply production 47k is used by factories, 14k by fort building and 41k is eaten by units (where some units do not eat at all). This means you are close to living from hand to mouth or worse, eating your remaining stocks.



morvael -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/27/2014 6:38:54 PM)

Don't worry about the T-70 not being used, at least you have enough T-60s to fill units. The problem of the current system is that when the TOE asks for T-60 and there are a lot of T-60 it will never consider upgrading to T-70. Once your tank units upgrade their TOEs starting with turn 55, that has T-70 in the TOE, the tanks will be slowly replaced. This system leads to problems when the TOE doesn't ask for a new type and there is not enough of the old type to fill units - then the units go understrength and this will not be fixed until my next big patch.



morvael -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/27/2014 7:02:18 PM)

Example:

8th Army wanted in Nelidovo:
a) 1.5*125% of unit needs + 1 per unit (current code): 2749 tons of generic supplies (including those for ammo conversion) and 63 tons of fuel
b) 125% of unit needs +1 per hq: 1822 and 31
c) 115% of unit needs +1 per hq: 1423 and 22
d) 110% of unit needs +1 per hq: 1223 and 18

8th Army really wanted 896 and 5.

One can clearly see that version a) was too much on the "safe side", some may say it was an overkill (200% margin in supplies, 1160% margin in fuel). I think version d) is the best, it resulted in some 35% margin in supplies and that looks ok. This still leaves room for units increasing in strength (usually there is more than one unit under a HQ, so the "stable" rest will compensate for some that will grow). With such reduced needs no city that was used by one or more HQs for resupply was at 0 stocks and 0 recieved.

I will send the code to Pavel and Joel so they could offer another hotfix for the players (there will be no features from the new patch, just this fix).



morvael -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/27/2014 7:07:00 PM)

I have also noticed you have some construction units attached to forts. It seems current supply code is not ready to deal with such units (forts are not HQs, so those units have to be resupplied like they would be standalone), and they get nothing. I will have to fix that as well, but this is more complicated issue so it must wait.



morvael -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/27/2014 7:14:00 PM)

Patch sent to Joel and Pavel. I hope they will be able to post a hotfix exe soon.



Oshawott -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/27/2014 9:55:11 PM)

quote:

Patch sent to Joel and Pavel. I hope they will be able to post a hotfix exe soon.


Wow, thanks.

I've now taken measures to preserve supplies. The current situation is unsustainable.



delatbabel -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/28/2014 6:34:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I have also noticed you have some construction units attached to forts. It seems current supply code is not ready to deal with such units (forts are not HQs, so those units have to be resupplied like they would be standalone), and they get nothing. I will have to fix that as well, but this is more complicated issue so it must wait.


This is a worry -- fort zones with 3 sapper units attached to each one is my SOP in places like the Crimean entry points, Osinovets, etc. It's the best way I've found to get the fort levels up quickly.



morvael -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (2/28/2014 6:38:35 AM)

Their morale may drop slowly, but I think they will still help with fort building. Just rotate them after a few turns.



Oshawott -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (3/1/2014 2:55:59 PM)

Status Update T59

I was able to stabilize Supply Stocks by cutting production of air planes and tanks in half. Supply stocks are now growing again also very very slowly. I have also disbanded aprox. 30 tank brigades as I will never use them.

I had eight (8) armies with 0% supplies on T59.



Oshawott -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (3/1/2014 11:16:42 PM)

Status Update T60

Supply Stores: 275197 (215741)
Global Supply Stock: 204%

7 armies and 1 air army with 0% supplies.




morvael -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (3/2/2014 1:27:54 PM)

I can't help you. The hotfix must be published, but it's not something I can do. Until then you will have those issues.



Oshawott -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (3/2/2014 4:28:28 PM)

morvael, you already helped a lot by identifying the problem and fixing it in the patch you provided. I was just reporting the numbers to show the effect of this problem. I also want to find out what number I need for Global Supply Stock for this situation to change.

I'll stop for now and will report when the situation changes.

Thanks again for your help!



Oshawott -> RE: Russian Supply Problems (3/10/2014 12:40:40 AM)

It appears that you need Global Supply Stocks above 350% for your entire army to be in supply. If this is not the case some armies will simply not get any supplies. Unfortunately, the game handles this very poorly because cities/towns seem to get supplied from south to north. South of Tula my army was in perfect supply while north of Tula supply was spotty. For example 7th Independent Army was at 0% supply for 40+ turns. During the worst supply problems I had 7 armies out of supply, all in the North where it didn't matter that much.



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