RE: Serious wargame?

RE: Serious wargame? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Lock ‘n Load: Heroes of Stalingrad

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tyrion22 -> RE: Serious wargame? (2/22/2014 2:23:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: doktor I am interested in this game but I am concerned about reports of Tiger tanks at Stalingrad, to say nothing of vampires and werewolves. Is this a East front simulation or a 'beer and pretzels' game? A fast and fun game has it's place, it's just not what I'm looking for. What's a serious wargame, anyway? There are games that have more accurate simulations of hit probabilities, penetration values etc., but Lock'n Load has different armor values for front, side and back, and different values for hull and turret. Weapons have penetration values and hit probabilities for three different range bands. Compared to many games, that's quite detailed. As a board game it's very detailed, unless you compare it to THE BOARDGAME WHICH MUST NOT BE MENTIONED ;), but compared to some really grognard computer games, there are major abstractions. I think it has a slight war movie feel, but so does THE BOARDGAME WHICH MUST NOT BE MENTIONED, from what I've been told, so grognard board gamers are used to this. Rather than asking whether it's a serious wargame or not (to me as a board gamer, it definitely is), you should ask yourself if you can live with board game type abstractions. Although there are more detailed games out there, I wouldn't call them better simulations, though. No game comes close to being a simulation anyway, as long as you have a god-like view of the battlefield. No amount of detail will compensate for how unrealistic this is. In real life, commanders don't even know exactly where their own forces are.

fran52 -> RE: Serious wargame? (2/22/2014 2:47:00 PM)
quote: In real life, commanders don't even know exactly where their own forces are. And again in real life the luck play an impotant role rappresented by the dice role.Wold not be seriuos if with one MG you are able to kill a T34.

Grotius -> RE: Serious wargame? (2/22/2014 5:05:00 PM)
Player omniscience is, of course, a hazard of our hobby! One I don't mind at all. I think LnL does a great job of mitigating player knowledge with random events like hero generation. Some games do reduce or eliminate omniscience. "Scourge of War", a Civil War game sold here by Matrix, does some radical stuff to reduce player omniscience. In the most hardcore mode, you are locked into a first-person view as a leader on a horse, and you have to ride around to see your units, give order by courier, deal with time-delays in orders, and manage units that refuse to obey your orders. It's really a neat system, and it's sort of humbling for a traditional wargamer. And I guess some sims also put one in the eyes of a combatant, like submarine sims and aircraft sims, including the one I'm playing right now, "Wings Over Flanders Fields." Anyway, I generally prefer games with omniscience, like LnL and The Game That Shall Not Be Mentioned. They make me think. :)

USSLockwood -> RE: Serious wargame? (2/22/2014 9:15:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oivind22 quote: ORIGINAL: doktor I am interested in this game but I am concerned about reports of Tiger tanks at Stalingrad, to say nothing of vampires and werewolves. Is this a East front simulation or a 'beer and pretzels' game? A fast and fun game has it's place, it's just not what I'm looking for. What's a serious wargame, anyway? There are games that have more accurate simulations of hit probabilities, penetration values etc., but Lock'n Load has different armor values for front, side and back, and different values for hull and turret. Weapons have penetration values and hit probabilities for three different range bands. Compared to many games, that's quite detailed. As a board game it's very detailed, unless you compare it to THE BOARDGAME WHICH MUST NOT BE MENTIONED ;), but compared to some really grognard computer games, there are major abstractions. I think it has a slight war movie feel, but so does THE BOARDGAME WHICH MUST NOT BE MENTIONED, from what I've been told, so grognard board gamers are used to this. Rather than asking whether it's a serious wargame or not (to me as a board gamer, it definitely is), you should ask yourself if you can live with board game type abstractions. Although there are more detailed games out there, I wouldn't call them better simulations, though. No game comes close to being a simulation anyway, as long as you have a god-like view of the battlefield. No amount of detail will compensate for how unrealistic this is. In real life, commanders don't even know exactly where their own forces are. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: doktor I am interested in this game but I am concerned about reports of Tiger tanks at Stalingrad, to say nothing of vampires and werewolves. Is this a East front simulation or a 'beer and pretzels' game? A fast and fun game has it's place, it's just not what I'm looking for. What's a serious wargame, anyway? There are games that have more accurate simulations of hit probabilities, penetration values etc., but Lock'n Load has different armor values for front, side and back, and different values for hull and turret. Weapons have penetration values and hit probabilities for three different range bands. Compared to many games, that's quite detailed. As a board game it's very detailed, unless you compare it to THE BOARDGAME WHICH MUST NOT BE MENTIONED ;), but compared to some really grognard computer games, there are major abstractions. I think it has a slight war movie feel, but so does THE BOARDGAME WHICH MUST NOT BE MENTIONED, from what I've been told, so grognard board gamers are used to this. Rather than asking whether it's a serious wargame or not (to me as a board gamer, it definitely is), you should ask yourself if you can live with board game type abstractions. Although there are more detailed games out there, I wouldn't call them better simulations, though. No game comes close to being a simulation anyway, as long as you have a god-like view of the battlefield. No amount of detail will compensate for how unrealistic this is. In real life, commanders don't even know exactly where their own forces are. A serious wargame should, at the very least, present an accurate, or at least a historically possible, Order of Battle. I doubt if zombies were ever used below the corps level on the eastern front.

Grotius -> RE: Serious wargame? (2/23/2014 1:49:17 AM)
The zombies are an optional fun feature, not part of the core game. The core game has a realistic order of battle.

Gizuria -> RE: Serious wargame? (2/23/2014 2:35:49 AM)
It's a serious wargame alright. The scope of the game extends to the battles of 1943 as well as Stalingrad. How can any serious wargamer complain about that [&:] Perhaps it might have been better if the extension was sold as a seperate DLC to avoid annoying the grog purists. As for Zombies and Vampires,etc, I haven't seen them yet but I won't mind having a bit of a laugh playing a scenario or two with them if it is a fun one. Their inclusion is just because the designer has a sense of humour, something that is missing from a lot of wargaming people. It's not good to take games too seriously [:D]

Barthheart -> RE: Serious wargame? (2/23/2014 10:15:43 AM)
Just a quick note.... there are no zombies in this game. None.

markhwalker -> RE: Serious wargame? (2/23/2014 10:27:41 AM)
No zombies. Where did anyone get the idea that there were zombies? What do you think this is, Call of Duty?[;)] quote: What's a serious wargame, anyway? A wargame that doesn't joke around.

Numdydar -> RE: Serious wargame? (2/23/2014 3:33:34 PM)
A game that has no commitment issues [:)]

erichswafford -> RE: Serious wargame? (2/23/2014 4:06:14 PM)
It's a damn serious Wargame and frankly it depicts squad-level combat a lot more realistically than anything else I can think of on the PC. Combat Mission and Panzer Command Ostfront are standouts as well, but they're 3D and this is a traditional hex and counters Wargame. I judge a Wargame by how well it rewards proper tactics and how much it punishes poor decisions. There's also a "feels right" factor that's important to me. Having played just about every squad-leader-type game since 1980, I think this is the most fun system I've played. And for me to think it's fun, it needs to be pretty realistic. You're talking to someone who slept on the floor for a month in high school because I had set up Victory Game's "Pacific War" on my bed.

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