RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (Full Version)

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ComradeP -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 1:58:50 PM)

How is visibility at night supposed to work?

Currently, units with thermals or night vision goggles can't spot anything beyond 500 meters in the second scenario of the School Teacher campaign, but when another friendly unit spots something, the enemy unit can suddenly be attacked. How does this mechanic work?

I'm stumbling into Soviet positions, and the Panzergrenadiere are very vulnerable in a firefight with an enemy equipped with ATGM's at close range. After a unit is spotted, other units can suddenly fire on them as well.

The performance of the German artillery has its ups and downs, it's not remotely as lethal as the US artillery was in the Grogheads contest 2.03 version, and that's fine for difficult terrain but Soviet units in the clear also often take no to low losses. Tanks being a bit better protected is one thing, but it's difficult to deal with the large Soviet infantry units without some sort of reliable average (in terms of casualties caused by artillery) to plan with.

It might be difficult to code, but units with a hasty move order not stopping when facing light resistance would also help. At the moment, my tank companies are often stopped by a single Gremlin team that they fail to destroy.

Some sort of hint as to where enemy reinforcements would come from (what edge/side of the map) would also be appreciated. Both in the first scenario and this one, I've had to restart (in the second case after several hours) because the enemy warped reinforcements in on top of my spearhead.

The sudden change in visibility for dawn sadly resulted in one of my companies getting mauled by 30 T-64BV's that were invisible to them before. I guess that dawn is supposed to take place in an entire orders cycle, hence the sudden increase in visibility instead of a gradual increase. The hints for when dawn or dusk will arrive seem precise, but they're not: it dawned at 04:20, instead of 05:02. That's a bit cheesy.

Overall, I still like what looks like a reduction in artillery effectiveness, but several improvements to how movement works for hasty moves would be nice.



cbelva -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 2:07:26 PM)

ComradeP, regarding night visibility and units with thermals, what is the weather? Bad weather can significally retard thermal imaging. If the weather is clear, a unit with thermals can see quite well.



ComradeP -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 2:09:27 PM)

"Night, clear, visibility 500 meters"

Neither my Jaguars nor my Leopards can see anything until they're adjacent to it or until another friendly unit spots it, when suddenly they can fire at it.



cbelva -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 2:13:04 PM)

Can you post a screen shot showing the LOS overlay? I just checked the los for a unit with thermals at night and it looked good.



ComradeP -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 2:38:25 PM)

It looks normal, but this isn't actually what the unit can see. There's a T-64 BV unit two hexes to the left, another unit two hexes to the right and yet another unit two hexes to the northeast that all pop-up as soon as visibility increases.

I can understand not being able to accurately spot units in towns or woods, but they can't spot anything on the open either beyond 500 meters.

[image]http://imageshack.com/a/img196/3575/vqiu.jpg[/image]



cbelva -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 3:03:20 PM)

Sorry to keep asking, but can you send me a saved game file. You can email me at <crbelva@comcast.net>. We need to take a look at this. I personally not seen anything like this. There is the possibility that might not see the units in the town or woods. However, I would think unit sitting in the 82 or 77 would be fairly easy to spot. I will also have Capn D take a look at it. Thanks



ComradeP -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 3:25:29 PM)

Save sent. It could be that the unit 2 hexes away in the clear moved there just before the visibility improved and was further away at the time the screenshot was taken, but I haven't been able to spot units at a distance in the open in the northern part of the map either.



cbelva -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 3:35:03 PM)

I set up a test scenario and I confirmed. I am wondering how this got by testing. I personally ran some night scenarios and did not see this problem.[:@] I will have Capn D look at this who is our resident sighting expert. Thanks for finding this. This might be something we have to hot fix before the next patch. I will discuss with Rob and Jim after they get a chance to look at this.



Yankee66 -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 4:26:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panta

A little warning notice. It seems that v2.03 overwrites the previous Scenarios and Saved directories. I lost (on this computer) all the maps made by other users and my own scenarios. It is convenient to backup the files you don't want to lose.

I don't think it over write saved games, but it will overwrite prevous Scenarios and maps since we had to update them for the patch to work with them. Sorry about that. If you reload the other maps, they should work.

Does that mean that on my end, something maybe went wrong?
Because after the update to 2.0.3, I still have the downloaded maps (Red Storm 9 and Fulda Gap) working as if nothing happened.



battlerbritain -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 6:48:16 PM)

I'm liking v2.03 so far.

A big improvement so a big thumbs up from me [sm=Cool-049.gif]

The game plays a lot quicker, helos + SAMs + AAA behave themselves and results seem a lot more 'authentic'. Things are happening roughly how I'd expect them to.

I like the way helos bug back to the FAARP a lot quicker when out of ammo.

Not tried nighttime stuff yet though.

Well done on a big improvement.



CapnDarwin -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 9:23:34 PM)

We are feeling pretty good about 2.03 except for breaking Thermal Sights at night and a odd scroll bar bug. We will be discussing a hot fix for these over the weekend as well as fixing the bugs.



Lowlaner2012 -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 9:26:57 PM)

So will the night time thermal bug be fixed by hotfix then?

I just played the first mission of the School teacher campaign, really enjoyed it, awesome game and patch... I will wait for the thermal fix before I go onto the 2nd scenario...

Thanks :)



jack54 -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 9:29:22 PM)

Just played Pied Piper and I don't think the W.German Support units fired by themselves, (little box Checked).... they fired where I tell them to though! Could somebody else check this out. It may be nothing.



Plodder -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 9:31:01 PM)

If I could put in a request for the modding guides, and tutorial guide, for that matter, to have clickable bookmarks please. They make navigating pdfs soo much easier.



CapnDarwin -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 9:42:25 PM)

@ the Plodder - I'm using a very simple PDF converter. I will see if there is an option.

@ jack54 - I have not seen any issue in testing, but let us know if you can confirm an issue. Grab us a save game too if you can.

@ highlandcharge - yes we would hot fix that and any other major issue that pops this weekend.



Lowlaner2012 -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 9:49:07 PM)

Hi Jack, now I think of it... the German artillery did not fire by itself when I played the 1st mission in the WG School teacher campaign, I had to tell it where and when to fire, I made sure I ticked staff auto firing box when I started the campaign...

Thanks :)



Plodder -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 9:52:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

@ the Plodder - I'm using a very simple PDF converter. I will see if there is an option.


If it doesn't, try OpenOffice, it has a one click pdf converter that uses the TOC to create it's bookmarks.



CapnDarwin -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 9:53:46 PM)

Thanks, I'll look into that.



jack54 -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/21/2014 11:22:07 PM)

Capn, I just posted a save in Tech support... this area of the forum wouldn't take it. I tried a few times and don't think the German Support units are firing.



Mad Russian -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 12:50:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The Jaguars are not joking around, they're very good at destroying tanks, even better than most of my Leopards thus far.



For those of you that are WWII fanatics you can compare a Jaguar to a King Tiger in 1941. They are nasty little beasts with a huge bite at long range!

I've had them ruin my day many times when I play the Soviets!! [:@] [:D]

Good Hunting.

MR



ComradeP -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 5:32:18 AM)

I also noticed the artillery not firing automatically when on call but as stated in the tech support thread, that's probably due to the lack of an HQ. They fired normally when ordered to do so.

I'm wondering if the decrease in artillery effectiveness is due to changes in the patch or simply because the artillery units are somewhat smaller than the US ones in the Grogheads 2.03 contest version. In the latter version, artillery was extremely effective, I even got the feeling that ICM and regular ammo were switched somehow as casualties from ICM were lower than from regular neutralizing fire barrages every single time. Saturation area fire seemed to work more like how artillery works in this version, as it wasn't nearly as good as neutralizing fire.



ComradeP -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 7:23:26 AM)

If any of the developers has time, could you check if the issue with fallen out subunits in a campaign not being displayed as repaired even though you can't repair them (there's no way to increase the "hours" scale to repair them) is purely visual (as in: they're depicted as being knocked out in the force roster and subunits overview, but are actually there) or if the units are actually not there?

The Red Hammer campaign is less enjoyable than the School Teacher campaign thus far because the scenario designer seemed to have forgotten about the sudden death feature, which makes it impossible to capture the final objectives. The campaign essentially encourages poor play (if you overrun the West German forces early, you'll get a marginal victory at best). This might also be the case for the US campaign, as judging by some of the AAR's even if you inflict significant losses on the Soviets, you'll still get a marginal victory.

I'm also not sure how the refitting process for destroyed units is supposed to work. I indicated that 227 VP's should be used (enough to repair everything) but the game used about half and only half the units returned. Why does the game allow you to put in a VP total for refits that doesn't actually result in that total being refitted? Is there variability, if so: where is that documented/what is the formula (roughly)?

Small units continue to be a big problem. If you want to advance fast, you'll rely on hasty move orders, but tiny remnants are very difficult to destroy currently (one or two element leftovers have inflicted more casualties on my forces than full strength units) and block movement. Units in hasty move mode being allowed to enter the hexes of small units or bypass them would remove part of the issue (not their survivability, though).



fvianello -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 8:33:57 AM)

yes, thermal sight and night vision enhancer have something strange.

On the other hand, Soviet AI artillery is finally working as it should...NATO has to move out fast from detected position or be sure it's good enough to survive 1 hour of suppression fire.



MikeGER -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 9:34:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Small units continue to be a big problem. If you want to advance fast, you'll rely on hasty move orders, but tiny remnants are very difficult to destroy currently (one or two element leftovers have inflicted more casualties on my forces than full strength units) and block movement. Units in hasty move mode being allowed to enter the hexes of small units or bypass them would remove part of the issue (not their survivability, though).

Comrade, did you know hasty units will switch to 'Move - Deliberate' orders when attacked by a ground unit or if an enemy unit is spotted.

so IMHO the solution would be (..somewhere in 2.05 or 2.06, i guess)
a Move-Deliberate-agressive order and a Move-Deliberate-cautious order,
(or as an atribute of a unit itself to act 'agressive' or 'cautious' that can be set by the player and the AI)

Move-Deliberate-Agressive would allow a unit to enter a enemy hex with a little delay (if the estimate! not the real) 'combat strength @ range "0" ' of the enemy in that hex is at least 3(5,7?) times weeker
because the enemy unit get killed faster in 'close-combat' then from 500m (...i assume that's how the FPRS game engine works?)

More precise would be:
the Move-Deliverate-agressive unit would first halt in the neighbouring hex (as it is now, and begin combat)
then switch to Assault order on iniciative (can be seen in the units info-pannel), and with the necessary realistic delay, assaults into the hex, all only if the estimat 'combat strength @ range "0"' of the enemy in the hex is at least 3(5,7?) times weeker then its own ....also the presence of enemies spotted nearby should be taken into account, if the local field comander of that unbit would dare to take the risk



ComradeP -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 9:57:04 AM)

quote:

Comrade, did you know hasty units will switch to 'Move - Deliberate' orders when attacked by a ground unit or if an enemy unit is spotted.


In terms of how it's shown to me, that only happens when the unit is attacked, but not always. When an enemy unit is spotted, the unit proceeds with a "2" on the counter instead of an "M". The "2" also sometimes stays in place when a unit is fired at by lighter weapons.

-

Soviet artillery also barely inflicts any losses in the open, maybe because most elements start as regular? I'm not sure what's going on. The off-map NATO artillery firing at my tanks has only knocked out one or two of them in an entire game.

The small unit/single element unit issue is very annoying for the moment. Like some of the issues in the Grogheads 2.03 version, I'm considering waiting for the next patch as I'm suffering lots of unnecessary and simply silly losses.

West German MG elements don't have a documented AP or HEAT rating. They've destroyed a handful of tanks in both scenario 1 and 2 at 1 hex range. It's not clear what's going on, and the game doesn't really make it clear what weapon it is that causes these losses. I'm guessing the Panzerfaust and other handheld AT weapons tend to have a range of 1 hex, which is OK I guess, but the MG units don't have documented AP or HEAT weapons.

A lot of the enjoyment I get from the game is currently quickly removed by single element infantry units inflicting more casualties than the enemy tanks or full strength infantry units. Often, the full unit is quickly turned into just a one or two element unit, but it's those tiny units that are very dangerous.

A single Gebirgsjaeger element in the open destroyed three BMP-2D's and two-three Mechanized Rifle squads (half of which from a unit in a town) all by itself, whilst the two Mechanized Rifle companies next to it couldn't hit it for over an hour. The Gebirgsjaeger squad was eventually destroyed by artillery. That's just silly, and it happens all the time.

It's like an infantry unit gets a large defensive bonus when it is decimated, which allows it to inflict casualties that are totally out of proportion to its size.



MikeGER -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 10:07:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
A single Gebirgsjaeger element in the open destroyed three BMP-2D's and two-three Mechanized Rifle squads (half of which from a unit in a town) all by itself, whilst the two Mechanized Rifle companies next to it couldn't hit it for over an hour. The Gebirgsjaeger squad was eventually destroyed by artillery. That's just silly, and it happens all the time.


That were German Gebirgsjäger! - thats the reason [:'(] [:D][;)]
u just saw Iron Crosses and maybe a Knight's Cross growing up ....Upps, wrong time frame[;)]



Lowlaner2012 -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 10:17:58 AM)

Hi ComradeP

Have you seen this situation with other NATO infantry or just the Gebirgsjäger?

Could it be because of the low quality of the Soviet conscripts and the elite Gebirgsjäger?

I'm not saying there is not a problem, I'm just thinking aloud :)



ComradeP -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 10:36:52 AM)

It also happened in the School Teacher campaign when my Leopards were firing at single Gremlin teams or HQ's. The Soviet Mechanized Infantry performs fine against full to half strength German infantry units, and then suddenly the German infantry units become very difficult to hit. I'm not sure what the quality of the German units was, but the mechanized infantry was elite (well, it is at the start of scenario 3, maybe it was veteran).

It's actually still my tanks that suffer the most, both in terms of casualties and slowdowns. Units in hasty move mode/"2" mode often move forwards only slowly if they spot a target near their destination.



Lowlaner2012 -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 11:06:08 AM)

Hmm it does seem a bit strange, maybe one of the on target guys should have a look :)

Have you got a save game, I would like to have a look..

P.S what happens when the attacking tanks are set to assault the hex that the decimated infantry are defending?

Thanks



ComradeP -> RE: 2.03 Update Feedback (2/22/2014 12:14:04 PM)

That makes no difference. In the third battle it's the same story all over again: the unit is decimated quickly by superior firepower, after which one or two elements become nearly invulnerable and destroy a number of my elements, stopping most of the assault in the process and allowing enemy artillery to target my tanks.

Thermals seem to work a bit better in the Red Hammer campaign, I can spot some units at a few hexes away with the recon units with thermals and the West Germans can also spot my units. Maybe the units are still calibrated for pre-2.03 data in that level? It might also just be coincidence.

Anyway, I'll wait for 2.04 before I continue playing, the small unit issue is just too much of a pain.



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