Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (Full Version)

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mh1066 -> Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 1:05:19 AM)

I can't express how disappointed I am with the turn the German campaign takes. Science fiction Biped super tanks...really?! [:-] If I keep playing the campaign (which I doubt) will there also be aliens from Mars shooting lasers at the hapless Wehrmacht? Maybe a Klingon cloak so the Soviet Guards can skip using the sewers altogether? I guess I'm more shocked than anything else since I was under the impression LnL was trying to be a somewhat serious wargame.

Don't get me wrong - it is harsh criticism - but its tough love since I do indeed love this game. It just seems so unnecessary. In a game with such promise, why resort to such foolery? Why not create credible tactical challenges that were encountered in the era? I mean, the game IS called Heroes of Stalingrad. As someone stated in another thread, I too will stick with individual scenarios.

Just to be clear, this is not a criticism of the game per se, but rather the decisions in campaign design. Others may well have a different opinion. Just curious to know how others reacted to these scenarios.



Harv -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 1:53:38 AM)

I like it. Kinda like the Cthulhu Expansion for Hornet Leader, it adds a different element to something we've seen over and over and over and over...

I can, and often do, have more than enough seriousness in Real-Life™, so a finding a little detour from "reality" like this in my gaming may be unexpected, but it's definitely not unwelcome.



Sabre21 -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 2:11:47 AM)

I had a good laugh about it.



e_barkmann -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 3:17:48 AM)

quote:

Science fiction Biped super tanks


srsly? Was getting more interested in purchasing once they'd fixed the suicidal defender issues but this type of thing is a real immersion killer.



markhwalker -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 10:24:11 AM)

quote:

Just to be clear, this is not a criticism of the game per se, but rather the decisions in campaign design. Others may well have a different opinion. Just curious to know how others reacted to these scenarios.


I designed 'em. They are as awesome as they are optional, a fact your post ignores. You don't have to play a single scenario with a Mech to complete the campaign. Just say no after you intigate the melee that branches the campaign. As for the Klingons and whatnot... you're safe. I'm not a fan of Star Trek.

quote:

Don't get me wrong - it is harsh criticism - but its tough love

I understood this would be some's reaction when I designed them, and it's why they are optional. If I had a chance to do it again, I'd do it again. If I had more time, I'd design more of them. [:)]Game on, and no, I'm not going to debate their merit.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 1:19:23 PM)

Indeed, I think the original comment is somewhat unfair as these were included for fun and are an _optional_ part of the campaign. You don't have to go this route and the historical campaign was finished before these were added in as an easter egg.

Regards,

- Erik



markhwalker -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 3:10:34 PM)

Erik is always the professional (and calm) ying to my yang. And I appreciate it.[:)]



z1812 -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 7:38:56 PM)

So the branch is clearly marked as Fantasy?



toddtreadway -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 7:51:37 PM)

I thought about this a bit and had been meaning to post about it.

I did not like those scenarios either, but like Mark says they ARE optional.

The ONE thing I'd do is make it clear that when the player investigates the factory that he is departing from the more historical game.

Other than that, I can see how some folks like them. They were challenging, that's for sure!



mh1066 -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 7:54:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Indeed, I think the original comment is somewhat unfair as these were included for fun and are an _optional_ part of the campaign. You don't have to go this route and the historical campaign was finished before these were added in as an easter egg.



Thank you for clarifying the design concept behind the addition of the Robo-tanks. I do need to address one point you made concerning the "optional" nature of their place in the campaign. They may be optional from the designer's omnipotent view of the campaign, but from the player's part this is far from the case. When given the option to "explore a factory" referenced in a found note it is far from clear what this means in gameplay. Truthfully, I assumed it was going to add a new additional victory requirement to the scenario. For example, this building is a factory...take these hexes...etc. Or, I suppose the campaign branches to explore a V2 rocket plant. Not historical, but within the realm of credibility. There certainly is no hint or expectation that a series of ahistorical scenarios are about to be launched. Which brings me to your second point - Easter Egg.

By definition an easter egg in a game is a brief self-referential moment wherein the designers wink at the gamer and humorously the two acknowledge the surprise that momentarily lifts the veil from the seriousness of the game/program. So a super-robo-tank that fleetingly appears and then disappears from gameplay is an easter-egg. A super-robo-tank that dominates two scenarios by being hideously hard to eliminate is a significant part of the game (remember, once this branch is selected you can go no further until the robo-tank scenarios are dealt with). We can disagree on the tastes of liking or not liking it, but calling it an easter-egg is incorrect.

I'm not belaboring the point, and happily will drop the issue. Its a great game and enjoying the gameplay design, I was just wondering if others were happy or disappointed as I with what happens in the campaign.



z1812 -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 9:56:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mh1066


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Indeed, I think the original comment is somewhat unfair as these were included for fun and are an _optional_ part of the campaign. You don't have to go this route and the historical campaign was finished before these were added in as an easter egg.



Thank you for clarifying the design concept behind the addition of the Robo-tanks. I do need to address one point you made concerning the "optional" nature of their place in the campaign. They may be optional from the designer's omnipotent view of the campaign, but from the player's part this is far from the case. When given the option to "explore a factory" referenced in a found note it is far from clear what this means in gameplay. Truthfully, I assumed it was going to add a new additional victory requirement to the scenario. For example, this building is a factory...take these hexes...etc. Or, I suppose the campaign branches to explore a V2 rocket plant. Not historical, but within the realm of credibility. There certainly is no hint or expectation that a series of ahistorical scenarios are about to be launched. Which brings me to your second point - Easter Egg.

By definition an easter egg in a game is a brief self-referential moment wherein the designers wink at the gamer and humorously the two acknowledge the surprise that momentarily lifts the veil from the seriousness of the game/program. So a super-robo-tank that fleetingly appears and then disappears from gameplay is an easter-egg. A super-robo-tank that dominates two scenarios by being hideously hard to eliminate is a significant part of the game (remember, once this branch is selected you can go no further until the robo-tank scenarios are dealt with). We can disagree on the tastes of liking or not liking it, but calling it an easter-egg is incorrect.

I'm not belaboring the point, and happily will drop the issue. Its a great game and enjoying the gameplay design, I was just wondering if others were happy or disappointed as I with what happens in the campaign.


Thank you for expanding on this. I gather that this game play branch is not clearly an option identified as entering the realm of Fantasy.



toddtreadway -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/25/2014 10:14:28 PM)

No. You are given the option to "explore a factory or continue the current mission" or something to that effect. I'd guess most players will explore the factory.



wodin -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/26/2014 12:15:54 AM)

Shame time and scenarios are given over to this. Throwing sci fi into a supposedly historical wargame without anyone expecting it is never a good idea. Would have been better if there had been some sort of sci fi expansion pack and all development for the main game was on what wargamers really wanted in a game with Stalingrad in the title.



Tejszd -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/26/2014 1:57:09 AM)

It should made clearer that taking the "option" is going to go fantasy or sci fi which is something most historical war gamers wouldn't accept/like....



Gargoil -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/26/2014 1:59:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: toddtreadway

I thought about this a bit and had been meaning to post about it.

I did not like those scenarios either, but like Mark says they ARE optional.

The ONE thing I'd do is make it clear that when the player investigates the factory that he is departing from the more historical game.

Other than that, I can see how some folks like them. They were challenging, that's for sure!


I do like the sci-fi fiction scenario, but to make it so you cannot continue the campaign if you cannot get thru them is wrong. I am stuck on the 2nd one, where we need to destroy 2 of them and exit 3 squads. I destroyed 2. But with the last monster guarding the exit, I cannot get the 3 squads off (I did get Wurtz and one squad off). The two things that should have been done was to allude to the player that the optional scenarios are "of a campy" nature. And failure should not stop the player from advancing in the campaign as long as Wurtz survives.



CraigB -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/26/2014 2:38:46 AM)

I do not post much on these forums, but I am a long time wargamer (over 30 years now), playing boardgames, miniatures, and computer wargames. My interest has always been in tactical-level historical wargames. Never been interested in the fantasy/alternate history etc varieties of the hobby.

Having said that, I think Heroes of Stalingrad is a fantastic game, and a superb conversion of the LnL boardgames (which I have also played). I have found many of the scenarios difficult to win against the computer player, which also makes a nice change from many other games.

The ‘alternative’ branch of the campaign was a surprise to me, but I just went with it and enjoyed it all the same. As other posters have commented, I did not realise the ‘option’ I was being given took me down the fantasy/alternate route. It actually occurred to me that this would produce a reaction from those expecting a strictly historical game. My first thought echoed some of the comments here, that it should have been clearer about what this campaign branch entailed. After consideration, though, I think it must have been difficult to decide how to handle this. I mean, putting a big signpost up that says “This Way to the Alternative Fantasy Campaign Branch” pretty much ruins the surprise for those who do go down that path. And I certainly got a shock when I saw what I had run into. Not too many computer games have ever surprised me like that.

I can understand people not liking the alternative branch of the campaign. When I finish the campaign, I will replay it, and probably avoid the alternative campaign branch. But I am not sorry the game took me down that path in the first place.

Regardless of opinion on the alternative campaign branch, I am impressed with the way in which the campaign introduces the various story elements that feature in the scenarios.

I hope that there will be enough support to see future expansions of the game, particularly the campaigns.

Craig Buckley



markhwalker -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/26/2014 10:46:28 AM)

Great point! I should have made this more clear. I was concentrating more on the surprise aspect of the Mechs. I'll go back and tweak the text so that the player they are entering into the realm of alternate history, or something like that. Thanks for bringing that up.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/26/2014 8:42:30 PM)

Hi guys, feedback heard that we needed to make this much more clear. Mark is going to make that adjustment so that it isn't a negative surprise for future players.

For those that went down the branch and found it was not their cup of tea, you should still have old save files that you can go back to and make a different choice if you prefer.

Regards,

- Erik



CraigB -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/27/2014 12:18:56 AM)

All you need to do is rename the game "Mech Walker's Heroes of Stalingrad"

There. Sorted.

CraigB[:)]



bungle53 -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/27/2014 8:07:26 AM)

The merits of these optional scenarios can be argued back and forth.

I note the designer has no regrets for including them. Personally I would much rather that the time and effort
that was put into designing and producing them was instead used for extra "normal" scenarios.

If I want sci-fi/alternate history then I will buy an appropriate game.



markhwalker -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/27/2014 12:28:33 PM)

These are my thoughts. I appreciate y'all's opinions.




z1812 -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/27/2014 3:17:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

These are my thoughts. I appreciate y'all's opinions.




Hi Mark,

I read your article with interest. I would agree that the feel of a game is the most important, given that the mechanics, what you describe as spreadsheets and pie charts, etcetera, are solidly at work in the background to enable that feeling. I wonder if programmers would agree with you that those elements are, as you describe, bull****. [;)]

Without those digital abstractions of armour thickness, range, movement, morale and the rest, reasonable war-games would not exist.

Some people enjoy the more detailed aspects of a war-game and one persons idea of enough information and accuracy will differ from another's. It is quite reasonable for someone to ask any question, in a civilized manner, about any game on a forum before buying.

In terms of the fantasy aspect in this game I would prefer that the time be spent on regular scenarios and campaigns that resemble reasonable small actions, but that is not my decision. You may decide to release an expansion that delves into merging world war 2 with science fiction, some will buy it and others won't. The market will decide.

At the moment I feel that luck is too much of a determining factor in comparison to sound tactical decisions for me to consider this a serious war-game. However I enjoy playing it. I do like the story telling aspect............without the leap into fantasy.

Hopefully sales will warrant further development. If so I will be curious to see how the game develops.

Regards,

John



fran52 -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/27/2014 3:32:22 PM)

quote:

world war 2 with science fiction, some will buy it and others won't. The market will decide.

I am the part of the market that won't.I hate science fiction,game fiction and also films fiction.I'm absolutely an historical fan.



Gargoil -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/28/2014 2:31:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: acropora

quote:

world war 2 with science fiction, some will buy it and others won't. The market will decide.

I am the part of the market that won't.I hate science fiction,game fiction and also films fiction.I'm absolutely an historical fan.


There is one alternate path in the campaigns that lead to the only Sci-fi portion of the game. If you play any of the scenarios, you will never encounter it. If you play the campaign and opt out of the alternate path, you will never encounter it. In all ways, the game is a brilliant squad level representation of WWII tactics. Great game mechanics, well presented.



wodin -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (2/28/2014 3:15:57 AM)

I agree 100%!


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812


quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

These are my thoughts. I appreciate y'all's opinions.




Hi Mark,

I read your article with interest. I would agree that the feel of a game is the most important, given that the mechanics, what you describe as spreadsheets and pie charts, etcetera, are solidly at work in the background to enable that feeling. I wonder if programmers would agree with you that those elements are, as you describe, bull****. [;)]

Without those digital abstractions of armour thickness, range, movement, morale and the rest, reasonable war-games would not exist.

Some people enjoy the more detailed aspects of a war-game and one persons idea of enough information and accuracy will differ from another's. It is quite reasonable for someone to ask any question, in a civilized manner, about any game on a forum before buying.

In terms of the fantasy aspect in this game I would prefer that the time be spent on regular scenarios and campaigns that resemble reasonable small actions, but that is not my decision. You may decide to release an expansion that delves into merging world war 2 with science fiction, some will buy it and others won't. The market will decide.

At the moment I feel that luck is too much of a determining factor in comparison to sound tactical decisions for me to consider this a serious war-game. However I enjoy playing it. I do like the story telling aspect............without the leap into fantasy.

Hopefully sales will warrant further development. If so I will be curious to see how the game develops.

Regards,

John




markhwalker -> RE: Campaign Once Again Into the Fray - SPOILER (3/8/2014 10:38:02 AM)

quote:

Some people enjoy the more detailed aspects of a war-game and one persons idea of enough information and accuracy will differ from another's. It is quite reasonable for someone to ask any question, in a civilized manner, about any game on a forum before buying.


I completely agree. There is no problem whatsoever.

quote:

Some people enjoy the more detailed aspects of a war-game


Yes, that is a valid opinion, but it is not mine. For example, Operational Art of War is watershed in war game publishing, and simply brilliant, but I'd rather push mow my lawn (Two acres) than play it. Too much work.



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