Size Matters (Full Version)

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berto -> Size Matters (3/1/2014 4:01:50 AM)


Size Matters. [;)]

To some in this player community. [:(]

After the fact. [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

The new toolbar was widely advertised in

  • Coder Diary #9 -- Revamped Toolbar
  • Tool Bar Buttons?
  • Many screenshots in the public forum.

    Furthermore

  • Every step of the way, we here in the private forum have discussed the toolbar at great length.

    AFAIK, nobody -- nobody! -- expressed concern or objection to

  • the number of toolbar icons
  • their small size
  • that they run together, presenting a confusing display

    Nobody.

    • Coder Diary #9 -- Revamped Toolbar was posted 8/22/2013 -- six months ago! A few weeks before, Tool Bar Buttons was posted 7/30/2013 -- more than six months ago! Why do you all think I go to the trouble of posting Coder Diaries? Among other things, to solicit player feedback of work-in-progress. For instance, feedback about toolbar icons, their size etc. -- of which there was little offered, and none of it critical.

    Look here, at this screenshot from the Tool Bar Buttons thread, posted 8/16/2003:

    [image]http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Products/SB/AOTR/aotr3.jpg[/image]

    Look familiar? It's a screenshot from one of John Tiller's Squad Battles. See the toolbar icons? Are they small? Did anybody say so? Did anybody say: Please don't make the JTCS toolbar buttons as small as they are in Squad Battles! Don't think so.

    Another John Tiller game, Campaign Peninsula, superimposed on East Front 2.00:

    [image]http://pikt.org/matrix/cs/graphics/UIControlsJTCSJTCW.jpg[/image]

    I hang out at JT Civil War Battles fora. A lot. You know what? Nobody in that series' player community ever complains about the toolbar size, or the size of the toolbar buttons!

    Another more recent John Tiller game, Musket & Pike Renaissance, superimposed on West Front 2.00:

    [image]http://pikt.org/matrix/cs/graphics/UIControlsJTCSJTMP.jpg[/image]

    Have I ever read any complaint about the Renaissance toolbar and the size of its buttons? Nope!

    Man, you want small UI controls? I'll give you small UI controls! Look at the toolbars, and tiny map icons -- every one of which opens up a UI dialog -- in this screenshot from War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition:

    [image]http://pikt.org/matrix/cs/graphics/UIControlsWITPAE.jpg[/image]

    I hang out at the WITP:AE forum. A lot. You know what? Have I ever read any angry rants about the size of WITP:AE's UI controls? Nope!

    What is it about the JTCS community that, despite fair warning, intentions revealed long in advance, now sees fit to raise a ruckus about 2.00's toolbar and button sizes? What makes us so special? Some of us, anyway. [;)]

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    I'm not getting any younger myself. I had to get reading glasses ~five years ago. (Although I'm not so dependent yet that I couldn't do without them.)

    But maybe it's just me. I'm okay with the smaller icons. Especially because when you mouse over a toolbar icon

  • the Status Bar indicates in text what the icon is for
  • if the mouse lingers long enough, a tooltip does the same, additionally indicating the hot key for that icon

    There is a logic to the grouping and the ordering of the icons. Players will learn to adapt to it. There is now a nice symmetry between the width of the window Title Bar, the Toolbar, and the Status Bar. We have more map space! (An issue, because otherwise why did earlier versions allow one to reclaim map area by toggling off the main menu?)

    A peeve of mine: Games, especially recent games, where the UI is too intrusive and takes up too much screen real estate! I like my UIs to be small, unobtrusive. I think the uncluttered, business-like UI of this game is fine and dandy. So shoot me!

    I so much hope everybody commits to learning the hot keys! Not just because I'm a lefty, I really think the game plays much better if we can make use of the otherwise idle left hand. With three ways to access major game functions -- toolbar, menu, hot keys -- what's not to like?

    You know what? I predict that, soon enough, players will get used to the new arrangement, and the whole controversy will blow over. Not to say we don't implement the new, larger toolbar -- when Mike has time for it -- and offer it in the next patch (also in Middle East etc.). But by then, I predict that the issue will largely be moot.

    • But I could be wrong. [:)]



    junk2drive -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 4:40:45 AM)

    There are a few old ladies around that have a meltdown every time there has been a change from the Talonsoft version of the game. Don't let them get you down or let them get under your skin. Some people don't/won't visit this forum until the changes come and some won't leave the blitz. Although you pre posted this over there too.

    Oh well, they can keep at 1.00 or 02 or 03 or 04 or TS.

    Let's move on please.



    budd -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 5:33:43 AM)

    ^ what he said

    Plenty of early warning about the changes taking place and plenty of opportunity to give feedback.

    Any time frame on the new EXE.



    scottintacoma -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 11:32:27 AM)

    I think the new icons are great. At least now I can figure out how to use some of the features I never used.



    MrRoadrunner -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 11:59:57 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: junk2drive

    There are a few old ladies around that have a meltdown every time there has been a change from the Talonsoft version of the game. Don't let them get you down or let them get under your skin. Some people don't/won't visit this forum until the changes come and some won't leave the blitz. Although you pre posted this over there too.

    Oh well, they can keep at 1.00 or 02 or 03 or 04 or TS.

    Let's move on please.


    Junk. Screw you. You condescending piece of crap.

    Yes, Berto the buttons are too small. There were those that stated early on that you do not need every hot key button on the lower tool bar. But, you put them there anyway and accused the players of wanting it all.
    Lose have the buttons and don't force players to have to look at the eye exploding tiny ones you put there.
    Please, also be less smug. We are customers. Don't piss off the customers.

    RR



    junk2drive -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 12:50:24 PM)

    Thanks Ed, you prove my point.



    TheGrayMouser -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 2:56:04 PM)

    Hmm, we don't have ALL the possible buttons :) since theres room I would like a display zoom in and out button haha!

    Also, my biggest (and which is quite minimal)gripe ( for all JT style games) is the icon for assaulting NEVER appears to have anything to do with close combat and screws me up the most. I mean two tanks humping( i think , the icon is so small) doesn't logically translate to an assault.... How about crossed bayonets or swords, even a hand grenade, something that implies "close combat" :)




    Huib -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 3:47:12 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: junk2drive

    There are a few old ladies around that have a meltdown every time there has been a change from the Talonsoft version of the game. Don't let them get you down or let them get under your skin. Some people don't/won't visit this forum until the changes come and some won't leave the blitz. Although you pre posted this over there too.

    Oh well, they can keep at 1.00 or 02 or 03 or 04 or TS.

    Let's move on please.


    +1



    Otto von Blotto -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 4:17:52 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: junk2drive

    Thanks Ed, you prove my point.


    I think with your first post you proved his. [8|]


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: junk2drive

    There are a few old ladies around that have a meltdown every time there has been a change from the Talonsoft version of the game. Don't let them get you down or let them get under your skin. Some people don't/won't visit this forum until the changes come and some won't leave the blitz. Although you pre posted this over there too.

    Oh well, they can keep at 1.00 or 02 or 03 or 04 or TS.

    Let's move on please.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner
    Junk. Screw you. You condescending piece of crap.

    Yes, Berto the buttons are too small. There were those that stated early on that you do not need every hot key button on the lower tool bar. But, you put them there anyway and accused the players of wanting it all.
    Lose have the buttons and don't force players to have to look at the eye exploding tiny ones you put there.
    Please, also be less smug. We are customers. Don't piss off the customers.

    RR





    TAIL GUNNER -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 4:45:34 PM)

    New buttons don't bother me so much...but I will admit I miss the familiar green outline of a selected unit on the map....can't find a color that suits me with "Highlight Orgs" on.

    What berto has done with this game in such a short time is nothing short of incredible.

    Give me an -X option for the org editor, or a way to easily add new units to the platoon files without encryption...and I'll never, ever complain about anything...[sm=00000055.gif]



    TheGrayMouser -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 4:57:50 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Juggalo

    New buttons don't bother me so much...but I will admit I miss the familiar green outline of a selected unit on the map....can't find a color that suits me with "Highlight Orgs" on.

    What berto has done with this game in such a short time is nothing short of incredible.

    Give me an -X option for the org editor, or a way to easily add new units to the platoon files without encryption...and I'll never, ever complain about anything...[sm=00000055.gif]


    Unless I misunderstand you last sentence, you can add to/ alter any platoon OOB now w v2, it just Only works for solo play ( ie for pbemail oob's are locked)



    TAIL GUNNER -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 5:08:52 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

    Unless I misunderstand you last sentence, you can add to/ alter any platoon OOB now w v2, it just Only works for solo play ( ie for pbemail oob's are locked)




    You can alter, but not add to. The org editor only reads .obx files....



    TheGrayMouser -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 5:14:30 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Juggalo


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

    Unless I misunderstand you last sentence, you can add to/ alter any platoon OOB now w v2, it just Only works for solo play ( ie for pbemail oob's are locked)




    You can alter, but not add to. The org editor only reads .obx files....


    Arrghh I did not know that....



    Huib -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 5:17:15 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Juggalo


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

    Unless I misunderstand you last sentence, you can add to/ alter any platoon OOB now w v2, it just Only works for solo play ( ie for pbemail oob's are locked)




    You can alter, but not add to. The org editor only reads .obx files....


    I remember you added US HTs to the German oob for one of my scns some years ago. I should check if that still works now :)



    TheGrayMouser -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 5:28:32 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Juggalo


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

    Unless I misunderstand you last sentence, you can add to/ alter any platoon OOB now w v2, it just Only works for solo play ( ie for pbemail oob's are locked)




    You can alter, but not add to. The org editor only reads .obx files....


    Hmm, Im a little confused about this. The oob are text files... If one uses the x function in the executable then its just telling the program to point to the OOB files vs the encrypted OBX... If the org editor (which you must use to build any OOB for a scenario) ONLY reads the OBX, then how in practicle terms can you edit any property of a unit? Unless the org editor has "fixed # of uits it ecognises in an oob....



    berto -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 5:44:30 PM)


    To the extent that edorg looks for .obx files, I will add a -X NoEncryption option to that EXE also, just like now for the game engine.



    TAIL GUNNER -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 5:49:23 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

    Hmm, Im a little confused about this. The oob are text files... If one uses the x function in the executable then its just telling the program to point to the OOB files vs the encrypted OBX... If the org editor (which you must use to build any OOB for a scenario) ONLY reads the OBX, then how in practicle terms can you edit any property of a unit? Unless the org editor has "fixed # of uits it ecognises in an oob....



    Right, with the -X option you can change things like assault values, firing, load-unload values, etc. You cannot change the number of SPs each unit has. cw58 and I tested this in this thread. It appears that values (like strength) which can be altered in the scenario editor can not be altered using the -X option.

    Now say you wanted to add an entirely new unit to the .oob files. Well, the only way to be able to use this unit and have it show up in the .org editor is to have a Matrix member encrypt the revised .oob file...something I was hoping the -X option would negate.

    @Huib - I remember clearly...and just yesterday was browsing the German units for WF in the Unit Viewer. I happened upon the captured M3 and was curious if the "winterized" version ever made it in....sadly, it hasn't yet. We also added some captured Russian heavy mortars.[8D]



    TAIL GUNNER -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 5:51:16 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto


    To the extent that edorg looks for .obx files, I will add a -X NoEncryption option to that EXE also, just like now for the game engine.



    That's fantastic news berto...thanks so much!



    TheGrayMouser -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 5:51:41 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto


    To the extent that edorg looks for .obx files, I will add a -X NoEncryption option to that EXE also, just like now for the game engine.

    quote:

    I will add a -X NoEncryption option to that EXE also, just like now for the game engine.





    Thanks Berto! Would it be safe to assume there would be no point, until that function is added, in modifying a platoon OOB to use in a new scenario?



    berto -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 6:07:42 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    To the extent that edorg looks for .obx files, I will add a -X NoEncryption option to that EXE also, just like now for the game engine.

    A fellow dev team member has pointed out the need for that with edit (the scenario editor) too. I'll look into implementing it for both edit & edorg this very day!

    quote:

    Thanks Berto! Would it be safe to assume there would be no point, until that function is added, in modifying a platoon OOB to use in a new scenario?

    Not quite. Up until now, you could modify existing platoon stats (to give them new capabilities, for instance), just not add new ones. An oversight.



    kool_kat -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 7:18:25 PM)

    Hey Berto and the JTCS Community: [8D]

    IMHO, it's time to stop adding more "gasoline" to the "Size Matters" fire.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinions? [&:]

    Let's stop ridiculing both players and game developers who have different viewpoints here and at the Blitz on the bottom icon menu.

    I've stated my view of the icon menu on the Blitz Forums. I also appreciate Berto's response and indication of a future icon button size toggle. Thank you for responding to this concern! [:)]

    In the end, it really does not matter which side can make the most posts or marshal the most evidence to drive home their points. Why? Because, while we are all getting worked up, we are losing sight of the bigger picture here.

    JTCS v2.0 represents the most significant development and investment into the CS game platform in the past 5+ years! Berto and the Matrix Team have breathed new life into an ageless and classic game system... and I am grateful for all the dedication, and hard work that has made JTCS v2.0 possible! So, a hearty and sincere "THANK YOU VERY MUCH" from a "middle-aged" gamer who first cut his teeth on East Front II way back in 1998! Looking forward to enjoying many hours with the "new gal"! [;)]

    But, I have a growing concern that this "Size Matters" disagreement may mushroom into another EA no holds barred fight that will only serve to divide the JTCS Community. And that would be a real shame and pity. [:(]

    Berto and the other development folks have shown a willingness to listen and respond to players' input. There's been a LOT of civil and constructive dialogue between Matrix and players. That's a good thing and bodes well for the JTCS Community going forward. Maybe a little less criticism and a little more applause are in order? Just a thought.

    So, for me. I've said my piece. I plan to do more playing... and less posting! [;)]



    R_TEAM -> RE: Size Matters (3/1/2014 8:28:24 PM)

    Hi,

    mmhhh ... what can i say .... both sides have not at all bad arguments ....
    I would for the side who say "the icons are to small" not only say "i dont need ANY change on my all time favorite game ....." is the only point, but an not small maybe ....
    But it is an valid point too - that the icons are getting realy tiny on nowdays screen sizes - and IF you have an Game from 2000 - who was programmed with an very small variance in the screen size (and 1280H was this time "enourmous"...) and make the even small (again - on nowdays screen sizes) icons - much smaler .... you should not surprised if this get a little rant ....

    And yes - it is no secret that popular old games availabe to buy, that have an very tiny UI for nowdays screen sizes.
    But the diff is - this games have (IMHO) from the beginning so tiny sizes - so what would the point here to complain ?
    Complain over the developer from the past , decades ago , that he not see in the future screens with 1900+ hight ... ??

    So i musst say - i see here an valid point - for me not so big - but for other maybe ....

    The solution ..... mmmhhhh ... sorry - it is no "easy" fast solution available ...
    The "best" would be an full sizable GUI (mostly done as OpenGL overlay or DirectX if you get no value on portability...) who no one can complain, as every user can now have all pices of the UI on the size HE want .... but this come an complete new engine realy close - so it is unlikely this will ever happen ...

    An solution i found "doable" is an more intelligent Ui - who only display the icons that make "sense" with the actual selected unit(s) - besides an basis set of every time visible icons ...

    I hope my long text is not to horrible :) (english is not my native language ..)

    Regards
    R-TEAM



    berto -> RE: Size Matters (3/2/2014 4:57:58 AM)

    [sm=innocent0009.gif]

    [image]http://pikt.org/matrix/cs/graphics/ToolbarClassicStandard.jpg[/image]

    [:D]



    junk2drive -> RE: Size Matters (3/2/2014 10:56:51 AM)

    Amazing what you can do.

    I'll stick with the new one.



    LoneWulf63 -> RE: Size Matters (3/2/2014 11:25:00 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: junk2drive

    There are a few old ladies around that have a meltdown every time there has been a change from the Talonsoft version of the game. Don't let them get you down or let them get under your skin. Some people don't/won't visit this forum until the changes come and some won't leave the blitz. Although you pre posted this over there too.

    Oh well, they can keep at 1.00 or 02 or 03 or 04 or TS.

    Let's move on please.


    Junk. Screw you. You condescending piece of crap.

    Yes, Berto the buttons are too small. There were those that stated early on that you do not need every hot key button on the lower tool bar. But, you put them there anyway and accused the players of wanting it all.
    Lose have the buttons and don't force players to have to look at the eye exploding tiny ones you put there.
    Please, also be less smug. We are customers. Don't piss off the customers.

    RR


    I have told my friends on the Dev Team that I would no longer post any comments on the public MCS forums. However, the more I have thought about what you said to Junk and how you attack others, the more peeved I get. So without further ado, let me say this. Mr. RR, do you think that the forum rules don't apply to you? I think you do. Did Junk insult you directly? No, he did not. How many hours of research, bug fixing, program editing, graphic design or OOB/Map/Scenario design have you contributed to these games? None, from what I can tell. Remember this. These updates/patches/games are being developed for the many not the few like you. If you don't like the new patch (which is FREE), don't use it. Do us all a favor. Go back over to the Blitz and stay there. And btw, I don't give a tinker's damn if you respond to this post or what you think about me or anyone else for that matter. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.



    berto -> RE: Size Matters (3/2/2014 11:33:39 AM)


    Yes, believe it or not, somebody asked for this too!

    [image]http://pikt.org/matrix/cs/graphics/ToolbarNoneClassicStandard.jpg[/image]

    [:D] [:D]



    LoneWulf63 -> RE: Size Matters (3/2/2014 11:40:39 AM)

    I wonder who?



    berto -> RE: Size Matters (3/2/2014 12:02:39 PM)


    A veteran player who has memorized the hot keys, has no use for the toolbar, and would appreciate a larger map space.

    We Aim to Please! [:)]

    [image]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SoXudRjhYfU/UeqF12BmoDI/AAAAAAAAm6A/CyYIePoNDW0/s1600/WE+AIM+TO+PLEASE.png[/image]



    MrRoadrunner -> RE: Size Matters (3/2/2014 1:13:24 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: resinslinger

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: junk2drive

    There are a few old ladies around that have a meltdown every time there has been a change from the Talonsoft version of the game. Don't let them get you down or let them get under your skin. Some people don't/won't visit this forum until the changes come and some won't leave the blitz. Although you pre posted this over there too.

    Oh well, they can keep at 1.00 or 02 or 03 or 04 or TS.

    Let's move on please.


    Junk. Screw you. You condescending piece of crap.

    Yes, Berto the buttons are too small. There were those that stated early on that you do not need every hot key button on the lower tool bar. But, you put them there anyway and accused the players of wanting it all.
    Lose have the buttons and don't force players to have to look at the eye exploding tiny ones you put there.
    Please, also be less smug. We are customers. Don't piss off the customers.

    RR


    I have told my friends on the Dev Team that I would no longer post any comments on the public MCS forums. However, the more I have thought about what you said to Junk and how you attack others, the more peeved I get. So without further ado, let me say this. Mr. RR, do you think that the forum rules don't apply to you? I think you do. Did Junk insult you directly? No, he did not. How many hours of research, bug fixing, program editing, graphic design or OOB/Map/Scenario design have you contributed to these games? None, from what I can tell. Remember this. These updates/patches/games are being developed for the many not the few like you. If you don't like the new patch (which is FREE), don't use it. Do us all a favor. Go back over to the Blitz and stay there. And btw, I don't give a tinker's damn if you respond to this post or what you think about me or anyone else for that matter. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.



    You can all get in a circle and do what you have to do.
    I am a customer. My product was changed.
    I expressed my viewpoint and was ridiculed. Anyone selling a product to a customer at least needs to show some respect to that customer.

    You want both worlds?

    You can blow your opinion out your arse for all I care. In the end you are, and always state, (you are) a member of the team.

    I could care less whether you wish to respond or not. You do not want debate you want to belittle and dictate. You and your little buddies (especially your cowardly friend Huib) can stuff your comments and "+'s" where the sun don't shine.

    Did you ever think that the changes would not be "accepted" and there would be push back?
    As designers and developers, members of team, it should be up to you to bite your tongues and fix the problems, or ignore things and move on.

    Get in my face you will get push back from me. I have that right to expression.

    And, to all, I know the consequences of my words within the rules of the forum. I am willing to express myself bluntly and directly with those rules in mind.
    You should take care to be cognoscente of your words too?

    RR



    junk2drive -> RE: Size Matters (3/2/2014 1:40:13 PM)

    Spending $35 in 2007 doesn't pay the light bill today. Customers are those that spent money recently for a product that they have the right to expect it to work as described on the product page. Seven years later a free update doesn't suit you then don't install it and move on.



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