RE: Are you psycologists? (Full Version)

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Misconduct -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 1:22:36 PM)

I must be the luckiest guy, I've played a few people, but my main opponent has always been John Rogers, we've probably played 8 or 9 games against each other. We both work 9-5 eastern time, we both are pretty equal in strategy and history.
The first game we played, was well over a year - John was japanese and I was the allies. We learned a ton from this first match and improved on it. When I run into problems, we sit on the phone and talk about scenarios and such.

Because of Nemo, I think my second game with John I played as the Japanese, and perhaps the third game as well. Me and john are not strategy players, hell we allow each other one due over per 6 months in game. Mistakes happen, why ruin a good game over one little fluke?

Due to my wifes cancer, we unfortunately have ended our last game feb of 2013, Its a shame - I don't remember the score, but I think we both split even, I won a few and he won a few. Of course John always got a good laugh when he captured something or sank a carrier,
but in the end we always respected each other for the different strategy we posted.

I'm sure most could beat us without any help, however in the years I played against John, its been a pleasure to find that kind of person to play with.



offenseman -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 1:35:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

I must be the luckiest guy, I've played a few people, but my main opponent has always been John Rogers, we've probably played 8 or 9 games against each other. We both work 9-5 eastern time, we both are pretty equal in strategy and history.
The first game we played, was well over a year - John was japanese and I was the allies. We learned a ton from this first match and improved on it. When I run into problems, we sit on the phone and talk about scenarios and such.

Because of Nemo, I think my second game with John I played as the Japanese, and perhaps the third game as well. Me and john are not strategy players, hell we allow each other one due over per 6 months in game. Mistakes happen, why ruin a good game over one little fluke?

Due to my wifes cancer, we unfortunately have ended our last game feb of 2013, Its a shame - I don't remember the score, but I think we both split even, I won a few and he won a few. Of course John always got a good laugh when he captured something or sank a carrier,
but in the end we always respected each other for the different strategy we posted.

I'm sure most could beat us without any help, however in the years I played against John, its been a pleasure to find that kind of person to play with.


That is what is important to the game(s). Having fun.

Best wishes to you and your wife.



Chickenboy -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 1:57:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct
I'm sure most could beat us without any help, however in the years I played against John, its been a pleasure to find that kind of person to play with.


That's awesome, Misconduct. I have a long-standing opponent in AW1Steve. He's become a good friend in the process of several games over several years. We too will have strategy or game skull sessions-it's one of my favorite parts of the game.

There's so much more to this game and the camaraderie that it can inspire than 'pwning' someone or wrapping oneself in the trappings of the BEST PLAYER EVER. Too much focus on the latter, IMO, degrades the likelihood of the former.



Feltan -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 2:38:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


Eh? I don't understand your (counter)point fully. But if you're suggesting what I think you're suggesting, the answer to your question is 'no'. One approach enables an opponent's manipulation. The other disengages from the exchange. Players that prey on this approach have insisted on their opponent's engagement and participation, as they should. Why give up the psychic warfare if you think you reap rewards from the 'metagame'? The 'street cred' that wafts from your opponent's submissive urination is apparently desirous to some.


I'll totally agree with the sentiments you express -- to me there is a huge gap between good-natured jibes and smack talk versus trying to get some odd personal satisfaction from manipulating and dominating the conversation.

However, small note, I think there is a difference between psychological warfare and psychic warfare -- the latter being the domain of Yoda and Luke Skywalker.

Regards,
Feltan



mind_messing -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 3:10:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Nemo was before my time here, but it seems to me his biggest trick was his reputation.


Amen.

Half the rep of some people is their forced feeding of their psychobabble to their opponent. As if the email connection (Skype / whatever) is their birthright to harass their competition with their verbose rumblings. I've heard some downright unkind characterizations of players here by some of these people over the years, wrapped in thinly veiled attack speeches and diatribes.

Oftentimes, these people are skilled manipulators of the AE engine and fair to good players. No more than that.

There have been some allegations from time to time that their reputation may perhaps (perhaps) be due to deriving "intelligence" incognito from time to time as well.


Exactly.

Throw some psycho-speak in along with a good understanding of Soviet battle doctine (why he loved his deep battle, I've no idea) with a pretty good standard of play. The result is Nemo's reputation. Was he a good player? Yes. Did he live up to his reputation? I think not.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Nemo would have disagreed strongly with this statement.[:)]

Alfred


Nemo would have had me drinking from a baby bottle and sucking my thumb in a matter of months...if that long.


Nemo was before my time here, but it seems to me his biggest trick was his reputation. He was an excellent player, but he wasn't some sort of superhuman.



Right.

Nemo was/is(?) an excellent player with an in deep understanding of strategy, a lot of patience, and a talent for finding optimal configurations from a number of options.

But his greatest feat was to create an aura of invincibility which intimidated many opponents. It was part of his strategy.
.


It was the repuation that did more for him than any of the above. Any of Nemo's operations that went as planned were attributed to that repuatation, and any of his opponents plans that failed were also attributied to that repuation.



Lecivius -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 3:23:32 PM)

I dunno.  Nemo was a darned skilled opponent.  He came up with some ideas from WAY out there.  Plus he used psy-ops brilliantly.  No person is superman, but he was one skilled, clever &^%$#@! .  I always enjoyed his posts.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 4:00:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I dunno.  Nemo was a darned skilled opponent.  He came up with some ideas from WAY out there.  Plus he used psy-ops brilliantly.  No person is superman, but he was one skilled, clever &^%$#@! .  I always enjoyed his posts.


He was an excellent player and he was the best at psy-ops of anyone who has publically discussed the topic. However, it should be remembered that he never, so far as I know, played a GC from beginning to end. He played scenarios, he did testing, he picked up already-started games and then didn't stick around to report finishing them, or he had opponents choose to not finish the game pretty early on.

His style was very focused, but didn't care a lot about losses. How that would play out over four years we never got to see.



LoBaron -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 5:53:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
It was the repuation that did more for him than any of the above.


That is a rather unqualified statement. To whom?

To a green player who falls for psych maskirovka, maybe.

To a veteran with the ability to judge skill based on facts and the value of strategic discussions with another player, not really. To his opponents, which were excellent players as well, donīt think so.





LoBaron -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 5:54:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
However, it should be remembered that he never, so far as I know, played a GC from beginning to end. He played scenarios, he did testing, he picked up already-started games and then didn't stick around to report finishing them, or he had opponents choose to not finish the game pretty early on.

His style was very focused, but didn't care a lot about losses. How that would play out over four years we never got to see.


Agree with that. He never proved his concepts over the full distance.



mind_messing -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 6:21:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
It was the repuation that did more for him than any of the above.


That is a rather unqualified statement. To whom?

To a green player who falls for psych maskirovka, maybe.

To a veteran with the ability to judge skill based on facts and the value of strategic discussions with another player, not really. To his opponents, which were excellent players as well, donīt think so.


The problem was it was "Nemo" these veteran players were up against. Psy ops, and a big reputation.

There was the game against n01487477, which stopped abruptly just as 1943 started. Couldn't find the reason why, though the last post mentions something about excessive Japanese fuel consumption.

Then there was the "No Fleet, No Problem" AAR, which again, just stopped in December 1942. Again, couldn't find the reason why.

On top of that, there was the Armageddon game, which Nemo has some good success in, but again, stops. This time, over acusations of cheating.



Chickenboy -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 6:35:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


Eh? I don't understand your (counter)point fully. But if you're suggesting what I think you're suggesting, the answer to your question is 'no'. One approach enables an opponent's manipulation. The other disengages from the exchange. Players that prey on this approach have insisted on their opponent's engagement and participation, as they should. Why give up the psychic warfare if you think you reap rewards from the 'metagame'? The 'street cred' that wafts from your opponent's submissive urination is apparently desirous to some.


I'll totally agree with the sentiments you express -- to me there is a huge gap between good-natured jibes and smack talk versus trying to get some odd personal satisfaction from manipulating and dominating the conversation.

However, small note, I think there is a difference between psychological warfare and psychic warfare -- the latter being the domain of Yoda and Luke Skywalker.

Regards,
Feltan


Thanks for the clarification on the psychic v. psychological warfare. Don't forget Cthulu The Old One and the Mindflayers of D&D ilk too. [;)]



LoBaron -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 7:06:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
It was the repuation that did more for him than any of the above.


That is a rather unqualified statement. To whom?

To a green player who falls for psych maskirovka, maybe.

To a veteran with the ability to judge skill based on facts and the value of strategic discussions with another player, not really. To his opponents, which were excellent players as well, donīt think so.


The problem was it was "Nemo" these veteran players were up against. Psy ops, and a big reputation.

There was the game against n01487477, which stopped abruptly just as 1943 started. Couldn't find the reason why, though the last post mentions something about excessive Japanese fuel consumption.

Then there was the "No Fleet, No Problem" AAR, which again, just stopped in December 1942. Again, couldn't find the reason why.

On top of that, there was the Armageddon game, which Nemo has some good success in, but again, stops. This time, over acusations of cheating.


What problem? This is right where I was aiming at.

He was creative in creating and exploiting strategic situations in-game. He was methodical in his approach and had a talent of grasping the essence of a situation and exploiting it.
And it often was a pleasure to engage or observe his discussions about the game, and I often happened to agree with his POV or be surprised at the alternative approaches to problem solution he offered.

But those attributes apply to quite a number of people around here, which is part of the reason I like this place so much.

The big reputation you talk about has nothing to do with Nemoīs reality. It was created by the majority of forum greenhorns before they even began to grasp the basics of WitP, and who usually neither engaged him in debate nor as opponents. Which makes their opinion pretty worthless.



mind_messing -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 7:28:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
It was the repuation that did more for him than any of the above.


That is a rather unqualified statement. To whom?

To a green player who falls for psych maskirovka, maybe.

To a veteran with the ability to judge skill based on facts and the value of strategic discussions with another player, not really. To his opponents, which were excellent players as well, donīt think so.


The problem was it was "Nemo" these veteran players were up against. Psy ops, and a big reputation.

There was the game against n01487477, which stopped abruptly just as 1943 started. Couldn't find the reason why, though the last post mentions something about excessive Japanese fuel consumption.

Then there was the "No Fleet, No Problem" AAR, which again, just stopped in December 1942. Again, couldn't find the reason why.

On top of that, there was the Armageddon game, which Nemo has some good success in, but again, stops. This time, over acusations of cheating.


The big reputation you talk about has nothing to do with Nemoīs reality. It was created by the majority of forum greenhorns before they even began to grasp the basics of WitP, and who usually neither engaged him in debate nor as opponents. Which makes their opinion pretty worthless.


This simply isn't true.



offenseman -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 7:51:39 PM)

I have seen many forums and as more of a lurker I have noticed one thing about them. People with high post counts especially those who speak with great enthusiasm for their opinions seem to be given an expert status by greenhorns, as you put it. This is true all over the internet and regardless the subject matter. I have always believed that that phenomenon is based on "This forum member has posted a lot, therefore they must know what they are talking about" or conversely, "This person has a low post count thus they know nothing" Over time the wheat is separated from the chaff using observation. I can think of one ex-forum member who everyone thought was one of the biggest innovators and experts around. Time showed that he was an average at best player who would cut and run as soon their terrible plans proved themselves to be a disaster. I know that I have learned who should be listened to and who should be ignored, but it takes time to learn that.



warspite1 -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 8:00:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I have seen many forums and as more of a lurker I have noticed one thing about them. People with high post counts especially those who speak with great enthusiasm for their opinions seem to be given an expert status by greenhorns, as you put it. This is true all over the internet and regardless the subject matter. I have always believed that that phenomenon is based on "This forum member has posted a lot, therefore they must know what they are talking about" or conversely, "This person has a low post count thus they know nothing" Over time the wheat is separated from the chaff using observation. I can think of one ex-forum member who everyone thought was one of the biggest innovators and experts around. Time showed that he was an average at best player who would cut and run as soon their terrible plans proved themselves to be a disaster. I know that I have learned who should be listened to and who should be ignored, but it takes time to learn that.
warspite1

100% agree with this - post count size is no gauge of ability - just look at Chickenboy's post count [:D]



LoBaron -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 8:06:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I have seen many forums and as more of a lurker I have noticed one thing about them. People with high post counts especially those who speak with great enthusiasm for their opinions seem to be given an expert status by greenhorns, as you put it. This is true all over the internet and regardless the subject matter. I have always believed that that phenomenon is based on "This forum member has posted a lot, therefore they must know what they are talking about" or conversely, "This person has a low post count thus they know nothing" Over time the wheat is separated from the chaff using observation. I can think of one ex-forum member who everyone thought was one of the biggest innovators and experts around. Time showed that he was an average at best player who would cut and run as soon their terrible plans proved themselves to be a disaster. I know that I have learned who should be listened to and who should be ignored, but it takes time to learn that.


Very true, old friend.

Your turn is in the oven. [;)]



PS: and STOP SINKING RNZN xAPs! [:D]



LoBaron -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 8:22:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I have seen many forums and as more of a lurker I have noticed one thing about them. People with high post counts especially those who speak with great enthusiasm for their opinions seem to be given an expert status by greenhorns, as you put it. This is true all over the internet and regardless the subject matter. I have always believed that that phenomenon is based on "This forum member has posted a lot, therefore they must know what they are talking about" or conversely, "This person has a low post count thus they know nothing" Over time the wheat is separated from the chaff using observation. I can think of one ex-forum member who everyone thought was one of the biggest innovators and experts around. Time showed that he was an average at best player who would cut and run as soon their terrible plans proved themselves to be a disaster. I know that I have learned who should be listened to and who should be ignored, but it takes time to learn that.
warspite1

100% agree with this - post count size is no gauge of ability - just look at Chickenboy's post count [:D]


Well, yes, he needs to compensate because BB Warspite huge ship and mosquito only very tiny. [:D]



offenseman -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 8:23:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Your turn is in the oven. [;)]

PS: and STOP SINKING RNZN xAPs! [:D]


This is a perfect example of an opponent getting carried away with PsyOps! [;)]

xAPs? What xAPs? I swear there were no mines or submarines near that island! Must have been one of those Mutsu-like yard disasters. Or particularly vicious kelp fields.

Glad to hear the turn is coming. I have been anxious about the paradrop into Boise (love those spuds) and the midget attack on Kweilin (looking for good Szechuan Beef)






offenseman -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 8:26:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

100% agree with this - post count size is no gauge of ability - just look at Chickenboy's post count [:D]


Watch it Warspite, I suspect after his last post that Chickenboy might be an Illithid. [8D]



Lokasenna -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 8:35:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

100% agree with this - post count size is no gauge of ability - just look at Chickenboy's post count [:D]


Watch it Warspite, I suspect after his last post that Chickenboy might be an Illithid. [8D]



Or perhaps a Deep One.



LoBaron -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 8:38:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Your turn is in the oven. [;)]

PS: and STOP SINKING RNZN xAPs! [:D]


This is a perfect example of an opponent getting carried away with PsyOps! [;)]

xAPs? What xAPs? I swear there were no mines or submarines near that island! Must have been one of those Mutsu-like yard disasters. Or particularly vicious kelp fields.

Glad to hear the turn is coming. I have been anxious about the paradrop into Boise (love those spuds) and the midget attack on Kweilin (looking for good Szechuan Beef)




Well, the Mutsu-like yard disaster seemed to be in synch with a whale sighting reportedly with some RO letters tattoed on the forehead. It raised minor suspicions, but the truth will never be known. The skipper of Rangatira was last seen going belowdecks mumbling something about 'checking the quality of the ostrich steaks'. All meant to be delivered to a wedding on Savaii. Its a shame.



offenseman -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 8:47:07 PM)

Ostrich steaks!! So my sigint (see other thread) was correct! I carefully selected Lt Cmd Moritaki for specific leadership and aggression modifiers (see other thread) to CAPTURE that ship (see other thread). That fool! When he gets back into port I'll have him flying plastic dog doo out of Hong Kong (see different movie). In a Theresa!!! hah! <insert maniacal laughter here>



czert2 -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 8:52:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


PS: and STOP SINKING RNZN xAPs! [:D]


they didnt taken swiming lessons ? Time to start. [;)]



adsoul64 -> RE: Are you psycologists? (3/27/2014 8:57:15 PM)

Really interesting lurking this thread. Just a clarification. I'm not complaining about my opponents. I had my share of characters, the most silent who's sending turn without any words or the verbose that is tolding his life history near every turn. But I have appreciated all of them. That is one of the reasons because I tend to change opponents every game, finding out their characters, weaknesses and strenghs is like an add-on game and opening turns with a "new enemy" are even more exciting. About the ones who try to use communications to gain an edge... well I can't see any bad. IMHO the human being tryed to persuade, deceive or force the others with words since the very same day he invented the language, so All Quiet on the Western Front [:)] Indeed sometimes could be funny, when the real goal behind words is far too obvious.



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