Newbie problem: Logistics (Full Version)

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ladner -> Newbie problem: Logistics (4/1/2014 12:00:28 AM)

Much like the old adage amateurs study tactics, armchair generals study strategy, but professionals study logistics. I have found that much like the real campaign, my first attempts at Barbarossa are being severely hamstrung by logistics. I have been reading the AARs, which provide plenty of insight into strategy and tactics, but logistics seem to be my biggest issue. I realize that because of game mechanics, the rail lines are going to lag the spearhead, so I have to ask. What is the maximum distance one can advance from a railhead, and still maintain decent APs for mobile troops? How far forward can airbases be placed, and still received supply?

I know from reading the manual that for air supply there is a certain distance an airbase with transport aircraft has to be in order to air supply. With regard to air supply it seems to be variable in terms of whether supply or fuel is sent, is there any way of controlling what gets sent? Currently, I am just playing against the AI, since I have only owned the game for a couple of weeks, so I suppose some mistakes can be made. I suspect against a human opponent some very painful lessons would have been administered on my over extended spearheads.




chuckbbq -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/1/2014 2:51:25 AM)

I have problem with logistics as well, I usual find my panzers short on fuel by turn 5. According the the manual, they have to be a certain # of movement points from a railhead to receive decent fuel supplies, not sure what that is. Just remember when using air supply; transports have to be within 5 mp's of a railhead, and if you drop fuel to a corps, it distributes fuel to units under it's command, as long as they are within range (highlighted green) Also, to make sure they drop fuel, select F9, then shift+click on the unit you're dropping to. under type, select fuel. You can select which aircraft you want to fly the mission as well. Hope this helps!




RedLancer -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/1/2014 6:43:42 AM)

Try this:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3313585





heliodorus04 -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/1/2014 9:47:34 AM)

For purposes of air supply, here are a couple of must/never

An airbase must be within 5 movement points from railhead to be eligible to fly supply (fuel, because there is no reason to fly anything but fuel to the panzer corps(/armies).

An air unit must have not flown more than X percentage of its allotments this turn (usually this means that for bombers specifically, they only fly fuel for their first mission of the turn). In practice, you definitely want to fly fuel immediately at the start of your turn. Doing so at the beginning also means that your panzer HQs haven't moved yet. This also requires you to pay attention to the Shift-click method (which is how you ensure you are specifically flying fuel, by toggling the button on the lower right between 'supply' and 'fuel' - again, there is almost never a reason to fly supply. Fly fuel. To panzer HQs, almost always corps.

Note that motorized divisions need far less fuel than panzer divisions to achieve high MPs for the turn through air refuel. Sometimes you may be advantaged by flying fuel directly to a division (especially for penetrating unopposed terrain).

If you're finding yourself having weird problems using shift-click to launch air missions, sometimes you want to click around on different airfields before selecting your target hex for refuel. Doing so will give you an idea what CAN fly, so you can make educated decisions (for example, not flying army group center's Ju-52 fleet 45 hexes to refuel army group north's panzer corps - pay attention to distances).

Bottom line, though, you are GOING to run low on fuel at various points. In time you get a better idea how to handle those moments. I personally don't play human opponents and if you do then you're going to have much harder times mustering supply than I do.

There is definitely an optimal railroad line for both army group north and army group center that help minimize the railhead distances. There's probably a searchable thread somewhere. THe trick is to take advantage of the baltic rail zone for army group center such that the railroad path arrives to vitebsk from the west, not southwest.

In terms of the system's supply distance optimizations, if I recall correctly, these are where 'bonus fuel amounts' arrive to an HQ during the standard resupply segment:
If the HQ is within 10 HEXES of the railhead, it receives a bonus (don't ask me the amount on these bonuses, they are probably minimal) AND that bonus increases for each hex less than 10 in distance to railhead.
If the HQ is within 25 MPs of railhead, it receives a bonus (scaled up as ranges decrease, as above).
If the HQ does not move, it receives a bonus (a disappointingly low one)
If the attached units to the HQ did not move last turn, they also receive a bonus.

Once you are beyond both 10 hexes and 25 mps of railhead, you are leveraging trucks for every hex beyond.

Probably a lot of other important factors I'm forgetting, but sometimes you're just going to be out of fuel for a turn in places. Turn 5 around Pskov. It's worst in the south, too.

In the south, two tricks: Perfrom the Lvov opening, to free open territory for rail build. Deploy FBD5 (from 11.Army) not straight east, but first north out of northeastern romania, immediately east over the river and rough hexes, then north to some city whose name I forget. This saves you a little time too.

Pay attention to your airbase Support need. A few airfields (particularly those with HE111s) start out with too many big aircraft (that fly big fuel amounts) on one base, limiting your potential yield. Sort it out over the first few turns.

Anyway, that's a start.




morvael -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/1/2014 10:03:21 AM)

The simples rule is to never move HQs more than 25 hexes and 100 MPs from rail (measured at the end of turn - values can be seen in the supply detail window) and to keep units within 5 hexes and 20 MPs from such HQs. Units away from HQs are able to draw some supplies, but HQs being too far from rail in supply phase 1 means it's subordinate on-map units within HQ supply range will get almost none. That's the most important rule of supply system. Obviously there is a lot of tricks if you want to maximize efficiency and additional tricks like air supply, but the crucial one is to keep rail-HQ-unit net in proper distance to each other.




swkuh -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/1/2014 12:52:51 PM)

Thanks to several for their analysis of the games "logistics." (Not so well here known 'till this.)

If playing the German in '41 you should ensure your supply line follows your planned main thrust in each theater of operation. Use FBD's to do this. Absolutely, the units, HQs, etc. need to be kept under control, but for the clever gamer an occasional wild (beyond supply constraints) move might be an interesting experiment.

Germans did have "logistics" issues in '41 and it did influence their capabilities. Whether the game correctly models this in every detail might be questioned, but the supply crunch needs to be a part of the game.




GamesaurusRex -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/1/2014 10:02:37 PM)

@heliodorus04

I thought the current game patches removed the use of bombers to transport fuel ? The rest still applies to Ju-52s I think.

Anyway, nice instructive post.





heliodorus04 -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/1/2014 11:53:04 PM)

Well, my game is up to date, and I can do it with level bombers if it's their first mission of the turn. I'm even getting Romanian bombers into the rotation.




BJP III -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/2/2014 12:08:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Well, my game is up to date, and I can do it with level bombers if it's their first mission of the turn. I'm even getting Romanian bombers into the rotation.


I mentioned this in the Bug sub-forum. It seems that if no JU-52s are in range, but eligible LBs are, you can toggle the LBs to fly fuel. If JU-52s are in range, only they can fly fuel -- the LBs will only do supply.

As to supply mechanics, I did some experimenting, and the optimal results seem to come when the corps HQ is within 10 MPs (not hexes) of the railhead, and its subordinates are within 5 hexes of the HQ. Having the HQ closer than 10 MPs to the railhead does not seem to add much, nor does having the subordinates closer than 5 hexes (except in the swamps where the total MPs exceed 20 or so).




swkuh -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/2/2014 1:29:36 PM)

KUDOS for BJP III for above info... would seem you did some clever experiments, or, whatever.

Anyone care to better explain what logistics, supply, and transportation mean in this game? Clearly they may be managed by the balance factors, but...

Supply certainly means foods, small equipment, and ammunitions... but what else?
Transportation means rail & trucks... but what else? Horses & wagons, footpaths?
Logistics? no clue...Does AI follow same rules as a player? Rules same for either side in H2H?

Does AI follow same rules as a player? Rules same for either side in H2H?

Understand, no criticism made or to be surmised, just would like to know more.








ladner -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/2/2014 8:46:05 PM)

Great insights all around. Still curious though, how far away can an airbase be from the railhead and act efficiently? Do the air HQs operate just like the land (Corps) HQs in BJP III tests?




BJP III -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/3/2014 12:13:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ladner

Great insights all around. Still curious though, how far away can an airbase be from the railhead and act efficiently? Do the air HQs operate just like the land (Corps) HQs in BJP III tests?


AFAICT, the most important thing for airbases is to be within 5 hexes of their HQ. Range to railhead (within reason) does not seem to be that big of a deal (also, you want to keep them back from the lines a bit anyway to avoid displacement by raids). The one big exception to this is that transports and LBs must be within 5 MPs (not hexes) of the railhead (without having moved) to fly supply missions. Note that this is calculated after rail conversion from the previous turn, so you need to check where your RH will be when placing your airbases.




zakblood -> RE: Newbie problem: Logistics (4/3/2014 12:29:31 PM)

there always seems a lot to learn and remember with this game, one of the main reasons i gave up on it a few years ago, just put it back on as have more time now needed to play and will give it another go, will have as much help turned on to start off with and see how i go, need a refresher so reading every thread on help i can :)




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