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Osito -> I see they're building a modding page ... (4/30/2014 3:34:11 PM)

http://www.matrixgames.com/news/1414/Distant.Worlds:.Universe.Guides.to.modding



ASHBERY76 -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (4/30/2014 3:40:16 PM)

I am interested about the under-the-hood changes.



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (4/30/2014 4:25:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

I am interested about the under-the-hood changes.

While few details there yet, it lists a Table of Contents for the mod guide.

http://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/Guides/DistantWorldsUniverseModdingIntro.pdf




ASHBERY76 -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (4/30/2014 4:44:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

I am interested about the under-the-hood changes.

While few details there yet, it lists a Table of Contents for the mod guide.

http://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/Guides/DistantWorldsUniverseModdingIntro.pdf




I read it.The modding looks very good for star trek modders,ect but I see no modding added for game systems like diplomacy.I find it strange that other races give you territory map when at low relations.I would have liked to play with that sort of stuff.



Loose Cannon -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/1/2014 12:23:16 PM)

Other than the ability to create new galaxies and improve the Galactopedia I don't see anything that greatly improved over Shadows. Did I miss something?[&:]



Erik Rutins -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/1/2014 1:26:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loose Cannon
Other than the ability to create new galaxies and improve the Galactopedia I don't see anything that greatly improved over Shadows. Did I miss something?[&:]



Er... yes. [;)]

Here's a list of what's new in Universe:

New to Universe!


- The entire Distant Worlds series in one package! Universe includes the Original Distant Worlds, Return of the Shakturi, Legends, Shadows and the new Universe expansion!

- Comprehensive Modding and Customization Support:
- Allows adding/removing/changing most items: resources (including new colony-manufactured resources), ship components, planetary facilities and wonders, fighter designs, alien races and race families, diplomatic dialog, empire policy, custom characters, ship and base design templates, governments, plagues, research tech trees and more
- Can customize most of the images used in the game: ships and bases, fighters, alien races, planetary facilities and wonders, characters, troops, components, resources, ancient ruins, planets, stars, asteroids, animated in-game effects and more
- Use a previously saved and editor-customized game as a map for a new game (instead of generating a new galaxy)
- Powerful new event system accessible from a considerably-upgraded Game Editor. Set up your own storyline in a custom map with triggered events and custom victory conditions
- Add story triggers on specific in-game objects or events, executing one or more actions on other in-game objects (either immediately or delayed)
- Can replace most of the user interface icons and sound effects
- Add your own custom help files to the in-game Galactopedia
- Switch between different customization sets with a couple of mouse clicks from the main game menu
- Comprehensive 100-page Modding Guide that outlines how to make Mods and explains all of the settings in detail

- Can now build your own planet destroyer projects in isolated star systems (once required technology researched)
- Allies will make cooperative fleet attacks against common enemies
- A multitude of AI improvements across many areas: resource transport, research pathing, fleets, etc
- Significant performance improvements, especially in mid-late game

- A new official storyline built using the new modding capabilities, covering the first war between the Freedom Alliance and the Shaktur Axis, in which you have access to the tech required to build your own planet destroyers, establish the Ancient Guardians and research and deploy the Xaraktor virus.



Erik Rutins -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/1/2014 1:28:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
I am interested about the under-the-hood changes.


Those are largely in these areas:

- Allies will make cooperative fleet attacks against common enemies
- A multitude of AI improvements across many areas: resource transport, research pathing, fleets, etc
- Significant performance improvements, especially in mid-late game



ASHBERY76 -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/1/2014 3:49:16 PM)

Allies need to actually stay in the war for more than 5 minutes for that to be useful.



Tampa_Gamer -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/1/2014 4:30:14 PM)

"- Switch between different customization sets with a couple of mouse clicks from the main game menu"

Does this mean that all of the files that can be modded have now been moved over to the theme subfolders?

I do hope that this is the case, because the way it is now requires some mods to modify files outside of the theme folder as well as inside the theme folder creating a real problem with respect to (1) maintaining a clean set of original files to revert back to or patch, and (2) patching the mod itself with further updates.



tjhkkr -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/1/2014 9:11:47 PM)

Woe... there is a lot of neat stuff to play with...

Add story triggers on specific in-game objects or events, executing one or more actions on other in-game objects (either immediately or delayed)
Erik, by this, do you mean like ruins triggering pirates?

:) :) :)



TrooperCooper -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/1/2014 11:56:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Allies need to actually stay in the war for more than 5 minutes for that to be useful.


QFT! [;)]



feygan -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 12:18:46 PM)

From what I can see this is all just cosmetic stuff again, sure lots more stuff but still cosmetic. Seems I can decide to have a death ray that has uber range and damage and make new icons/graphics/sounds but no real change to how the weapon mechanics function for example. AI changes are good and fine but where is the option for a modder to say "actually I want an AI to behave in this way".

I see about the custom game setup and saving maps with events etc. But can a modder make changes to the mechanics of how a galaxy is generated? could a modder have the game create a protogalaxy full of young stars in dense clusters etc or the other end of vast gaps with rogue planets loose in space? To say yes by setting how many planets at the game start is not the answer, does modding allow for a modder to change the laws governing said setups?

I also see nothing of stuff such as allowing changes to things such as planet orbits, or ship movement mechanics. This is leaving me more and more disenchanted with DW:U from a modding standpoint.



ReadeB -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 2:08:34 PM)

You have to be very careful about modding things and completely breaking the AI's ability to function.

This has happened with mods in other games (Civ IV) where the AI doesn't understand how to use or even that a new system exists.

It turns a fun single player game into an easy steamroller unless you ignore the AI's blindspots.




feygan -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 3:30:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ReadeB

You have to be very careful about modding things and completely breaking the AI's ability to function.

This has happened with mods in other games (Civ IV) where the AI doesn't understand how to use or even that a new system exists.

It turns a fun single player game into an easy steamroller unless you ignore the AI's blindspots.




Breaking the original intended function is pretty much all of what modding is about though. To say a product has opened up lots of new modding when in reality it has just allowed some small cosmetic changes is quite different. Not to mention some of the best mods around have come from issues of breaking the AI and then discovering new ways to use it.



ASHBERY76 -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 3:40:07 PM)

You can influence the A.I a fair bit with policies so I wonder if that has been expanded too.



Erik Rutins -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 4:56:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: feygan
Breaking the original intended function is pretty much all of what modding is about though. To say a product has opened up lots of new modding when in reality it has just allowed some small cosmetic changes is quite different. Not to mention some of the best mods around have come from issues of breaking the AI and then discovering new ways to use it.


I'm not following you here. Allowing players to for the first time create a custom galaxy, create their own resources, components and tech trees is "cosmetic"?

We're basically opening up the game in Universe, but we don't allow you to change the basic game design. It's a much, much more moddable Distant Worlds, but if you want to make your own game that works very differently, you still need to make your own game.

Improving the AI to handle these new mods is something we did and the AI's play can be influenced in many ways already. The conditional events also allow the modder to shape how gameplay unfolds. Completely rewriting the AI in all parts of the game was not feasible.

Universe basically hits all the top modding requests from previous DW releases. The areas that modders most wanted access to and which could be done, we opened up in Universe. I think you will be surprised, given your comments here, how much more can be done than what could reasonably be called "cosmetic".

Regards,

- Erik



Osito -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 5:23:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: feygan
Breaking the original intended function is pretty much all of what modding is about though. To say a product has opened up lots of new modding when in reality it has just allowed some small cosmetic changes is quite different. Not to mention some of the best mods around have come from issues of breaking the AI and then discovering new ways to use it.


I'm not following you here. Allowing players to for the first time create a custom galaxy, create their own resources, components and tech trees is "cosmetic"?

We're basically opening up the game in Universe, but we don't allow you to change the basic game design. It's a much, much more moddable Distant Worlds, but if you want to make your own game that works very differently, you still need to make your own game.

Improving the AI to handle these new mods is something we did and the AI's play can be influenced in many ways already. The conditional events also allow the modder to shape how gameplay unfolds. Completely rewriting the AI in all parts of the game was not feasible.

Universe basically hits all the top modding requests from previous DW releases. The areas that modders most wanted access to and which could be done, we opened up in Universe. I think you will be surprised, given your comments here, how much more can be done than what could reasonably be called "cosmetic".

Regards,

- Erik


Speaking for myself, I'm happy about the scope of what is being modified, it's just not yet clear to me what counts as being part of the basic game design and what counts as a moddable feature, hence the questions in my other post here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3601817

Ideally, I'd like all of those features to be moddable, but, in practice, I'll take whatever I can get.

I guess it will all become clear in time, but it would be good to know where the boundaries are.



ASHBERY76 -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 5:28:35 PM)

Do you guys look at games like SpaceEmpires5 and even EndlessSpace.Those games are basically completely open.They did not care about players messing up the game design.



Loose Cannon -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 6:08:48 PM)

Don't worry, Erik. I'll go over things point by point with things that were done in Shadows in BOLD PRINTwith the expression BEEN THERE DONE THAT posted as BT, DT. Other issues will also be listed in bold print.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loose Cannon
Other than the ability to create new galaxies and improve the Galactopedia I don't see anything that greatly improved over Shadows. Did I miss something?[&:]



Er... yes. [;)]

Here's a list of what's new in Universe:

New to Universe!


- The entire Distant Worlds series in one package! Universe includes the Original Distant Worlds, Return of the Shakturi, Legends, Shadows and the new Universe expansion! NOT REALLY

- Comprehensive Modding and Customization Support:
- Allows adding/removing/changing most items: resources (including new colony-manufactured resources), ship components, planetary facilities and wonders, fighter designs, alien races and race families, diplomatic dialog, empire policy, custom characters, ship and base design templates, governments, plagues, research tech trees and more BT, DT
- Can customize most of the images used in the game: ships and bases, fighters, alien races, planetary facilities and wonders, characters, troops, components, resources, ancient ruins, planets, stars, asteroids, animated in-game effects and moreBT, DT
- Use a previously saved and editor-customized game as a map for a new game (instead of generating a new galaxy) NEW
- Powerful new event system accessible from a considerably-upgraded Game Editor. Set up your own storyline in a custom map with triggered events and custom victory conditionsVALUE TO BE DETERMINED
- Add story triggers on specific in-game objects or events, executing one or more actions on other in-game objects (either immediately or delayed)MINOR IMPROVEMENT
- Can replace most of the user interface icons and sound effectsBT,DT
- Add your own custom help files to the in-game Galactopedia NEW BUT ONLY A MINOR IMPROVEMENT
- Switch between different customization sets with a couple of mouse clicks from the main game menu AND HOW MUCH TIME WILL THIS TAKE?
- Comprehensive 100-page Modding Guide that outlines how to make Mods and explains all of the settings in detail WILL IT WORK BETTER THAN THE PIRATE SETTING SLIDER?

- Can now build your own planet destroyer projects in isolated star systems (once required technology researched)MINOR IMPROVEMENT TO TECH TREE
- Allies will make cooperative fleet attacks against common enemies
- A multitude of AI improvements across many areas: resource transport, research pathing, fleets, etc
- Significant performance improvements, especially in mid-late game THESE LAST 3 CAN'T BE DETERMINED UNTIL PLAYED

- A new official storyline built using the new modding capabilities, covering the first war between the Freedom Alliance and the Shaktur Axis, in which you have access to the tech required to build your own planet destroyers, establish the Ancient Guardians and research and deploy the Xaraktor virus.

Now, please don't insult my intelligence again. I was hoping to hear from someone not employed by the company to tell us something, anything, that will MAKE ME WANT TO GIVE YOU MORE OF MY MONEY. i don't want to hear the regular company line that tells us nothing. How badly did you fail Business Management 101? This expansion was supposed to come out first quarter then changed to May 2014. And yet you don't know what it will sell for? ROFLMAO. The first lesson in BM101 is that when you decide to create a new widget you decide what you can sell it for. The second lesson is that you then determine what it will cost you to create it. If cost exceeds projected sale price you then have to determine whether you will A cut costs. B raise price. C drop the widget or D some combination of those 3.

Now here's you final lesson for today. (Hopefully, you won't fail it)
Sentence no. 1. We, the customers, are the important ones.
Sentence no 2. When you forget everything else remember sentence no. 1.



ReadeB -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 6:20:04 PM)

"But in the end, for something this complicated, it's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."

Quoted from some guy named Steve... but he probably didn't know what he was talking about.



joeyeti -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 6:59:26 PM)

Sentence no. 0 for Loose Cannon:

"I am entitled to the universe, therfore YOU OBEY."

With or without pun, you decide.


I for myself are looking forward to Universe and will be watching out for the development of Distant Worlds 2.



Erik Rutins -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 9:05:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito
Speaking for myself, I'm happy about the scope of what is being modified, it's just not yet clear to me what counts as being part of the basic game design and what counts as a moddable feature, hence the questions in my other post here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3601817


Thanks, I've asked Elliot to chime in on some of those, I'll post answers as soon as I have them.

In general, the goal of expanding modding was not to change the ground rules of the game, but rather to allow you to customize the galaxy and everything in it to match any setting of your choice. This was already a major project - I would imagine that doing much more would only be possible for a new release that was designed for it from the ground up and my guess is that it would involve some trade-offs in other areas.

Regards,

- Erik




Erik Rutins -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 9:10:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
Do you guys look at games like SpaceEmpires5 and even EndlessSpace.Those games are basically completely open.They did not care about players messing up the game design.


I didn't say that we care about players messing up the game design. The fact is simply that Distant Worlds was never designed to allow the core game design to be changed, but it will now allow the entire setting and galaxy to be customized and modified within that game design. I understand that some games allow more, but it would require an entirely new Distant Worlds redesigned from the ground up to allow it, rather than an expansion.

For Universe, we went through the years of modding requests, picked the most popular ones and put in the time to make them possible. Our assumption was also that the main reason someone would want to modify Distant Worlds is not to change the core game design, but rather to change the rest. The mod request we've received over time agreed with that.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/2/2014 9:17:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loose Cannon
Don't worry, Erik. I'll go over things point by point with things that were done in Shadows in BOLD PRINTwith the expression BEEN THERE DONE THAT posted as BT, DT. Other issues will also be listed in bold print.


It's rather odd to do that to a list that was based on what's new in Universe.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Loose Cannon
- The entire Distant Worlds series in one package! Universe includes the Original Distant Worlds, Return of the Shakturi, Legends, Shadows and the new Universe expansion! NOT REALLY


Really? Where was this available in one package before?

quote:

- Allows adding/removing/changing most items: resources (including new colony-manufactured resources), ship components, planetary facilities and wonders, fighter designs, alien races and race families, diplomatic dialog, empire policy, custom characters, ship and base design templates, governments, plagues, research tech trees and more BT, DT


Not at all. If you can define your own resources, including manufactured ones (a brand new thing), define your own components, facilities and wonders, governments, research trees, etc. in Shadows then please show me. It would have saved us a LOT of work if we'd known that we'd already done this. [;)]

quote:

- Can customize most of the images used in the game: ships and bases, fighters, alien races, planetary facilities and wonders, characters, troops, components, resources, ancient ruins, planets, stars, asteroids, animated in-game effects and moreBT, DT


Only some of these were customizable in the past.

quote:

- Powerful new event system accessible from a considerably-upgraded Game Editor. Set up your own storyline in a custom map with triggered events and custom victory conditionsVALUE TO BE DETERMINED
- Add story triggers on specific in-game objects or events, executing one or more actions on other in-game objects (either immediately or delayed)MINOR IMPROVEMENT


We'll agree to disagree on how minor this is. I've already used it, when you get a chance to do so you may find it's more useful than you think.

quote:

- Switch between different customization sets with a couple of mouse clicks from the main game menu AND HOW MUCH TIME WILL THIS TAKE?


... "a couple of mouse clicks"?

quote:

- Comprehensive 100-page Modding Guide that outlines how to make Mods and explains all of the settings in detail WILL IT WORK BETTER THAN THE PIRATE SETTING SLIDER?


This is getting a bit ridiculous, you are getting close to trolling with this post.

quote:

Now, please don't insult my intelligence again. I was hoping to hear from someone not employed by the company to tell us something, anything, that will MAKE ME WANT TO GIVE YOU MORE OF MY MONEY. i don't want to hear the regular company line that tells us nothing. How badly did you fail Business Management 101? This expansion was supposed to come out first quarter then changed to May 2014. And yet you don't know what it will sell for? ROFLMAO. The first lesson in BM101 is that when you decide to create a new widget you decide what you can sell it for. The second lesson is that you then determine what it will cost you to create it. If cost exceeds projected sale price you then have to determine whether you will A cut costs. B raise price. C drop the widget or D some combination of those 3.


I certainly respect and honor our customers. The entire reason to do Universe was to give the community a version of Distant Worlds that would meet their requests for moddability and allow them to change it and expand it in as many ways as possible.

It is certainly every customer's prerogative to decide whether this release is worth their money. We are going to do our best to get all the information out there so that each customer can make an informed decision. Before anyone spends a single dollar, they'll know much more about Universe and what the pricing and upgrade discounts will be.

Regards,

- Erik



Icemania -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/3/2014 12:07:43 AM)

Loose Cannon, it's possible to express even the strongest views while remaining respectful.



swizzlewizzle -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/3/2014 2:54:32 AM)

The way I see it, potentially the most powerful modding tool that seems to have been added is the story triggers and the actions we can execute on them. However... i'm concerned how limited it might be..

Erik, did you folks implement a scripting option for us to put our own code in to be run after the event is triggered? Access to for/if/etc.. loops and the like? Or is it just something where we have to "slot in" a premade event such as "x" race gets "yyy"? If there is enough complexity here, and access to most of the game's base functions, we should be able to do what we want. :)



Loose Cannon -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/3/2014 7:23:00 PM)

Where was I being disrespectful instead of the one being disrespected?

I read a lot of posts here and watched hours of Let's Play videos before I bought RotS last June (on sale). I picked up Shadows in the end of year/Christmas sale. I now have more money in DW than any other game and 50% more than i ever intended to spend on any game. I'm not one of these hipsters who have to fall all over themselves buying something the day it comes out because they're cool. But for months I sat here and watched all the "UNIVERSE IS COMING. AND IT'S GREATER THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE" hype coming out of Matrix and kept my mouth shut. Finally, I posted a question asking for something to give me some enthusiasm for this expansion and I got the company line saying "Lookie here. Fluffy Bunny Pictures". Instead of facts I got BS so who was disrespected?

Last October, I received an email from Stardock on the day of the announcement of GC3 offering me Founders ($39.99) or Founder's Elite ($99.99)status. (I hate GC2 that game bored me within a month.) That's for a game that won't come out until summer 2015 but damn they were giving me the right [:D]to become an Alpha tester. Like I'm stupid enough to pay to do that. But Matrix, with less than 30 days to publish can't even announce the price? Are they that embarrassed??




Osito -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/3/2014 8:17:13 PM)

[Not very happy with this post, so I've deleted it]



Icemania -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/4/2014 2:46:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loose Cannon
Where was I being disrespectful instead of the one being disrespected?

The use of "lessons" is extremely condescending while Bold and Capitals is often perceived as Shouting. In contrast, Erik elected not to respond the same way.

There are some elements of your comments that I agree with. In my opinion the scope selected by Matrix only ticks some of the boxes I was interested in with Universe. But I also appreciate there are many ways to play this game and many different views.

Communicating constructively and with respect is a better approach for everybody. If you would like to liaise further on this let's do it via PM.



hewwo -> RE: I see they're building a modding page ... (5/4/2014 3:29:05 AM)

I for one am quite disturbed by such negativity on the forums of my favourite game.



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