P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (Full Version)

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Icedawg -> P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 12:38:32 AM)

I just noticed that the droptanks for this plane are listed as "XT". Its torpedo is listed as "C". Since the ordnance and the droptanks are listed differently, does this mean that the plane can fly with BOTH the droptanks and the torpedo? If they are carried on different parts of the aircraft, then it would seem logical that they could be used simultaneously. Is this the case, or is it just wishful thinking on my part?



Numdydar -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 12:49:18 AM)

XT stands for External iirc and C means centerline. So unless XT means wing tanks you are out of luck [:(]



Icedawg -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 12:51:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

XT stands for External iirc and C means centerline. So unless XT means wing tanks you are out of luck [:(]


I thought C meant cowling. If so, the torpedo might be up front and the droptanks further back.

Edit: Never mind, that would only work for an engine up front (like on a single engine fighter). Wasn't thinking of the position of the engines on the Frances out on the wings. Sometimes the keyboard goes before the brain thinks!



mind_messing -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 12:56:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I just noticed that the droptanks for this plane are listed as "XT". Its torpedo is listed as "C". Since the ordnance and the droptanks are listed differently, does this mean that the plane can fly with BOTH the droptanks and the torpedo? If they are carried on different parts of the aircraft, then it would seem logical that they could be used simultaneously. Is this the case, or is it just wishful thinking on my part?


From a quick check of tracker, I think that the P1Y2 CAN in fact carry torpedos and droptanks.

This is based on looking at the Vlidebeest (which can't carry both drop tanks and a torpedo), where both torpedo and droptanks are marked as "CL" (ie, centerline).

The P1Y2, with torpedo marked "CL" and the droptanks marked "XT" (ie, external) should be good to carry both droptanks and torpedos.



Icedawg -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 1:02:27 AM)

Here's a picture of the P1Y1 (based on a Hasegawa 1/72 model). Looks like the droptanks are out on the wings and the torpedo is right in the belly.

So, if the P1Y2 is designed like the P1Y1, it should be able to fly at extended range and still use a torpedo.

Can anyone confirm that the game handles allows both the torpedo and droptanks to be used on the same mission?



[image]local://upfiles/19528/6121779A15ED44ECAF1F4A11C0CD8E74.jpg[/image]



Icedawg -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 1:03:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I just noticed that the droptanks for this plane are listed as "XT". Its torpedo is listed as "C". Since the ordnance and the droptanks are listed differently, does this mean that the plane can fly with BOTH the droptanks and the torpedo? If they are carried on different parts of the aircraft, then it would seem logical that they could be used simultaneously. Is this the case, or is it just wishful thinking on my part?


From a quick check of tracker, I think that the P1Y2 CAN in fact carry torpedos and droptanks.

This is based on looking at the Vlidebeest (which can't carry both drop tanks and a torpedo), where both torpedo and droptanks are marked as "CL" (ie, centerline).

The P1Y2, with torpedo marked "CL" and the droptanks marked "XT" (ie, external) should be good to carry both droptanks and torpedos.


Thanks mind_messing. Have you ever actually seen this taking place in game play?



mind_messing -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 1:40:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I just noticed that the droptanks for this plane are listed as "XT". Its torpedo is listed as "C". Since the ordnance and the droptanks are listed differently, does this mean that the plane can fly with BOTH the droptanks and the torpedo? If they are carried on different parts of the aircraft, then it would seem logical that they could be used simultaneously. Is this the case, or is it just wishful thinking on my part?


From a quick check of tracker, I think that the P1Y2 CAN in fact carry torpedos and droptanks.

This is based on looking at the Vlidebeest (which can't carry both drop tanks and a torpedo), where both torpedo and droptanks are marked as "CL" (ie, centerline).

The P1Y2, with torpedo marked "CL" and the droptanks marked "XT" (ie, external) should be good to carry both droptanks and torpedos.


Thanks mind_messing. Have you ever actually seen this taking place in game play?


No.

Never gotten far enough to get the P1Y1's sadly.



Numdydar -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 2:26:08 AM)

I can tell you in a few more game months for sure [:)]



Numdydar -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 3:11:18 AM)

I checked out the P1Yi as I current have AGs with them and they can definitely carry a torp and fuel tanks [:)] So I can assume the P1Y2 can also do the same.



Yaab -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 4:48:27 AM)

I don't know about Frances, but Zero has a drop tank in CL position, and bombs in XT position, so it takes both on a mission.



Gaspote -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/7/2014 6:35:20 PM)

If the planes is show with drop tanks in the planes database I assume it means he can carry both. The P1Y use torpedo with drop tanks anyway.



CV Zuikaku -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/16/2014 7:24:42 AM)

I'm regularly using P1Ys with droptanks. And I can confirm that they can carry torpedo when using droptanks.



obvert -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/16/2014 10:13:54 AM)

Yes, it works with drop tanks and torpedoes. Or drop tanks and bombs. Have fun!



Dili -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/16/2014 7:59:51 PM)

Well it can take depending on range. A Torpedo adds drag and that affects range. So that depends if the numbers are right.



Erkki -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/16/2014 9:15:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Well it can take depending on range. A Torpedo adds drag and that affects range. So that depends if the numbers are right.



I think the P1Y like the G4M carries the torpedo internally without extra drag, and type 91 torpedo's weight of ~850 kg is close to the bomb load.

Though true, those few plane types that carry full bomb load in a bay but torpedo externally should receive a(small) range reduction when carrying a torp. But the game engine doesnt allow such.

edit: fixed typos



Dili -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/16/2014 10:01:34 PM)

Yep, but who edits the files can do it i think. The bombay is open in G4M1 and i think in P1Y too so there is still a drag penalty. There is another issue is if the torpedo weight forces to cut on internal fuel.



Erkki -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/16/2014 10:32:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Yep, but who edits the files can do it i think. The bombay is open in G4M1 and i think in P1Y too so there is still a drag penalty. There is another issue is if the torpedo weight forces to cut on internal fuel.


G4Ms actually apparently flew nearly all missions with the bomb bay doors removed. No source but can find one if needed.

What the source for its top speed is and how it was measures and if its wrong in the game for that reason is a different thing... If its top speed was reduced by say 5 mph I dont think even extensive testing would reveal the performance difference. Bomber speed AFAIK effects the time fighting enemy CAP and hits taken from AAA.

Actually if G4M ought to be changed somehow or have new variants added I dont think bomb bay doors would be even in the top 20 in importance...



wdolson -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/16/2014 10:50:12 PM)

The P1Y carried the torpedo semi-recessed.

http://modelingmadness.com/scott/axis/j/jnaf/p1y1.htm

The Betty didn't have bomb bay door actuators or motors to save weight. Though I would think the extra drag from the open bomb bay would have been a push in the end.

The Frances was used on extremely long range raids. Some attacked Ulithi when the USN was using it as the forward base for carrier operations. I believe they flew from Iwo Jima, but I can't remember exactly where.

Bill



Dili -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/17/2014 10:34:18 AM)

I know that a Ju-88 with 4 external bombs like it usually did , since the internal bomb bay was ridiculous only able to take 50kg bomb types , was around 20-30km/h penalty. Depends on plane size and max speed but an external torpedo in medium bomber that makes around 450km/h is probably around 20km/h penalty. Those funky radar antennas in German night fighters were also a 20-25kmh penalty but they were faster so drag is more important despite a small size for the antenna compared to a torpedo. Highly aerodynamic aircraft of course are punished more for external stores. In a plane with inline engines, should punish more that in a radial one.



PaxMondo -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/17/2014 11:39:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The Betty didn't have bomb bay door actuators or motors to save weight.


Bill,

weren't they hand operated? I thought they used a hand crank to open/close the doors. A real pain, and slow (like 5 mins); so for most missions they left them open to allow them to jettison in case of attack .... just what I remember reading/hearing sometime long ago ...



wdolson -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/17/2014 10:51:28 PM)

The doors were just a panel that had to be removed by hand by a ground crew. The panel was only installed for ferry flights. Operationally it was always removed.

Having models of the things you learn details about aircraft you otherwise wouldn't notice. The instructions for the Tamiya Betty explain this.

I looked up some things about the Ju-88, curious about what Dili said about the Ju-88. The bomb doors on that were activated by the bombs falling through them. They were spring loaded to close when there was no weight on them like the nose wheel doors on the B-24. The nose wheel doors on the B-24 were that way to allow the guys in the nose a quick exit in an emergency.

Bill



leehunt27@bloomberg.net -> RE: P1Y2 Frances and Droptanks (5/20/2014 6:26:59 PM)

Thanks for those detailed comments- fascinating stuff.

Just started ramping up my Frances P1Y1 production in a PBEM game-- hopefully my mainstay bomber till the very end...



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