how to force daylight bombardment (Full Version)

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urtel -> how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 2:32:31 PM)


I have 2 cruiser TFs which i try to use as artillery support for Indian troops on Ramree island, but with moonlight of 0% they just shooting blind...and i have 100% air control of area so i say to mine self why not give them some light maybe they will hit something..but..
so far i m unable to order bombardment at day, i try to put them on cruise speed and set attack from Chittagon but they switch to fast and get in night, i set them to remain on station(from Akyab) because they have enough ammo for second shoot but they switch to surface combat after night phase, so is it possible to do day bombardment at all?
Or better to say i know it is possible, there is enough of those in AARs but how u do it?
I guess if i put them on fast and give them rage of 10+ then they will do day bombardment but that damage ships too much and it sound wrong that i need to rush from Calcutta instead just to give them simple order, is this only way to do day time bombardment ?

And if it's can we get little button in interface day/nigh bombardment, that will be nice feature?

If idea for force fast move before bombardment is to give ship more damage to represent need to replace tubes etc(to slow thing down), then i think better solution will be we simple give rnd(10-20) system damage to every ship who do bombardment mission...



EHansen -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 3:50:29 PM)

Do you have the CA's float planes on night recon? It will help the result.



czert2 -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 4:02:06 PM)

well, you can allways add slow ship to tf as "anchor" so it will have no full speed to bombard at night.
And "rush to bombard" is what is game game tried to rprent - RL hardwork which tried to archive.
And no, game dost simulate weat to main guns on ship, damage taken from full speed is to represent stress put on ship/machinery when going on flank speed instead of normal max full.



crsutton -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 4:28:57 PM)

In order to bombard during daylight you set the TF on "bombardment" and set the status "remain on station." The downside is that your TF will sit at the base for one full daylight phase and is exposed to air and naval attack for a full night and day phase before you get to bombard. So, if you fear enemy attack you have better have a good CAP over your TF. The upside is that the DL is usually much higher and you can do some amazing damage if you are not pounded beforehand. The worst bombardment that I ever suffered through was a daylight (lost 100 aircraft).



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 5:15:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

In order to bombard during daylight you set the TF on "bombardment" and set the status "remain on station." The downside is that your TF will sit at the base for one full daylight phase and is exposed to air and naval attack for a full night and day phase before you get to bombard. So, if you fear enemy attack you have better have a good CAP over your TF. The upside is that the DL is usually much higher and you can do some amazing damage if you are not pounded beforehand. The worst bombardment that I ever suffered through was a daylight (lost 100 aircraft).


Your way works for sure, but have you ever had success with a sea-bound dogleg? IOW, set up the bombardment without Remain, but waypoint away from the target during the night, counting phase hexes so it reverses and arrives for the first time at the target in the AM or PM pulse? I've done that with carrier strikes, but never tested it on bombardments. I don't know if the TF will just refuse to shoot if it's daylight and there's no Remain order.



urtel -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 6:22:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

In order to bombard during daylight you set the TF on "bombardment" and set the status "remain on station." The downside is that your TF will sit at the base for one full daylight phase and is exposed to air and naval attack for a full night and day phase before you get to bombard. So, if you fear enemy attack you have better have a good CAP over your TF. The upside is that the DL is usually much higher and you can do some amazing damage if you are not pounded beforehand. The worst bombardment that I ever suffered through was a daylight (lost 100 aircraft).


i'm try to do exactly that but it not work for me...
so i have 3CA+5DD force on Akyab i put them on bombardment set target to Ramree island and set "remain on station".. they go to target shoot in night phase and then before day phase they auto switch to surface combat, so no fire in next day phase no matter they sit in target hex and have more than 60% of ammo...

enemy opposition is not existing no naval or air threat it is shooting fish in barrel scenario but mine shooters really like night phase and hate clear shoots...

and yes i m using recons in night phase but that not help much with 0% moonlight...



Lokasenna -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 6:28:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

In order to bombard during daylight you set the TF on "bombardment" and set the status "remain on station." The downside is that your TF will sit at the base for one full daylight phase and is exposed to air and naval attack for a full night and day phase before you get to bombard. So, if you fear enemy attack you have better have a good CAP over your TF. The upside is that the DL is usually much higher and you can do some amazing damage if you are not pounded beforehand. The worst bombardment that I ever suffered through was a daylight (lost 100 aircraft).


Your way works for sure, but have you ever had success with a sea-bound dogleg? IOW, set up the bombardment without Remain, but waypoint away from the target during the night, counting phase hexes so it reverses and arrives for the first time at the target in the AM or PM pulse? I've done that with carrier strikes, but never tested it on bombardments. I don't know if the TF will just refuse to shoot if it's daylight and there's no Remain order.


Usually for me, in these cases, the bombardment TF sits at the waypoint for a full day. I think this is the experience of others as well. Perhaps they can post their experiences.

I haven't done rigorous tests, just observation. I've only set waypoints when I don't care if they sit at the waypoint for a day, after I got burned once for setting a bombardment waypoint just 2 hexes out - the TF sat there and ate some bombs for a day before deciding to bombardment. A little frustrating, as the TF had plenty of movement to reach the waypoint and then go do their thing - 8 hexes of mission speed for one phase, 3 hexes away from the waypoint... I was routing that way due to subs. This was during my first PBEM in the Guadalcanal scenario, so I might be able to dig up the relevant turn files.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 7:54:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

In order to bombard during daylight you set the TF on "bombardment" and set the status "remain on station." The downside is that your TF will sit at the base for one full daylight phase and is exposed to air and naval attack for a full night and day phase before you get to bombard. So, if you fear enemy attack you have better have a good CAP over your TF. The upside is that the DL is usually much higher and you can do some amazing damage if you are not pounded beforehand. The worst bombardment that I ever suffered through was a daylight (lost 100 aircraft).


Your way works for sure, but have you ever had success with a sea-bound dogleg? IOW, set up the bombardment without Remain, but waypoint away from the target during the night, counting phase hexes so it reverses and arrives for the first time at the target in the AM or PM pulse? I've done that with carrier strikes, but never tested it on bombardments. I don't know if the TF will just refuse to shoot if it's daylight and there's no Remain order.


Usually for me, in these cases, the bombardment TF sits at the waypoint for a full day. I think this is the experience of others as well. Perhaps they can post their experiences.

I haven't done rigorous tests, just observation. I've only set waypoints when I don't care if they sit at the waypoint for a day, after I got burned once for setting a bombardment waypoint just 2 hexes out - the TF sat there and ate some bombs for a day before deciding to bombardment. A little frustrating, as the TF had plenty of movement to reach the waypoint and then go do their thing - 8 hexes of mission speed for one phase, 3 hexes away from the waypoint... I was routing that way due to subs. This was during my first PBEM in the Guadalcanal scenario, so I might be able to dig up the relevant turn files.


I just did a quick test with my testbed game.

All 21kt pre-war BBs at PH driven to 3 hexes due east of Mili. No Japanese operations in play. No air cover.
One BB given night air recon orders at 1000ft. One given day recon at 1000ft.

Target set to Mili. Settings adjusted to Absolute, Direct. Waypoint 1 inserted at 6 hexes east of Mlli. IOW, the TF will drive 3 hexes away from the target in the night phase, reverse, and come back 6 hexes. Waypoint 2 was Mili.

The bombardment happened in the PM pulse.

COMBAT EVENTS FOR 10/22/42

ADJUST TASK FORCE MISSIONS
CALCULATE RANGE TO ENEMY
CALCULATE AIR SUPERIORITY
ASSIGN COMPUTER CONTROLLED UNITS
Combat Events:
NAVAL REACTION PHASE
LOADING/UNLOADING TASK FORCES
TASK FORCE LOADING/UNLOADING COMPLETE
CALCULATING TASK FORCE PATHS
MINESWEEPING OPERATIONS
NAVAL MOVEMENT PHASE
ADJUST SHIP FUEL
NIGHT AIR OPERATIONS PHASE
AIR NIGHT STRIKES
AIRCRAFT LANDING
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
SURFACE COMBAT CHECK
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
REPAIRING SHIPS
END 12 HOUR PULSE
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
CHECKING TF FUEL
TF'S RETURN TO PORT
Combat Events:
NAVAL REACTION PHASE
LOADING/UNLOADING TASK FORCES
TASK FORCE LOADING/UNLOADING COMPLETE
CALCULATING TASK FORCE PATHS
MINESWEEPING OPERATIONS
NAVAL MOVEMENT PHASE
ADJUST SHIP FUEL
AIR OPERATIONS PHASE : AM
AIR STRIKES
AIRCRAFT LANDING
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
AIR OPERATIONS PHASE : PM
AIR STRIKES
AIRCRAFT LANDING
AIR TRANSPORT PHASE
AIRCRAFT LANDING
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
SURFACE COMBAT CHECK
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
Allied Ships Bombarding Mili
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
REPAIRING SHIPS
END 12 HOUR PULSE
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
CHECKING TF FUEL
TF'S RETURN TO PORT
RECALCULATING ZONES OF CONTROL
SUPPLY REQUIREMENTS PHASE
MOVING OIL AND RESOURCES
PRODUCTION PHASE
SUPPLY MOVEMENT PHASE
CALCULATING SPOILAGE
AIRCRAFT REPAIR PHASE
AIRCRAFT SUPPLY PHASE
UPGRADING SHIPS
UPGRADING AIR UNITS
UPGRADING LAND UNITS
SUPPLY PHASE COMPLETE
END OF DAY
TRAINING SHIP CREWS
DISBANDING HUMAN CONTROLLED TASK FORCES
ADJUSTING AVIATION SUPPORT
LAND UNIT REPLACEMENT PHASE
AIR UNIT REPLACEMENT PHASE
MERGING SUB UNITS
SUB UNIT MERGE COMPLETE
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
LEADER REASSIGNMENT PHASE
CVE Prince William arrives at Tacoma
xAP Glenstrae arrives at Cape Town
SEARCHING FOR ADJACENT ENEMY UNITS
REASSIGNING TRANSPORT GROUPS



[image]local://upfiles/31387/CA28AA3FDC5A472AB10A894A876650CA.jpg[/image]



Lokasenna -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 8:48:29 PM)

What happens if you have them begin farther out? It's going to be pretty rare that somebody is going to be able to take two days' worth of potential air strikes and still bombard.

So what happens if they are, say, 10 hexes out and you set a waypoint to increase the distance traveled to 12 hexes? Does it matter if the waypoint is exactly 6 hexes from the target, or can it be 10 hexes from the target (i.e., to which "end" of the first movement phase do you add the additional 2 hexes)? This is where I remember having trouble - bombardment TFs seem to like to "pause" for a day at one phase of movement away from the target if possible.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 9:48:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

What happens if you have them begin farther out? It's going to be pretty rare that somebody is going to be able to take two days' worth of potential air strikes and still bombard.

So what happens if they are, say, 10 hexes out and you set a waypoint to increase the distance traveled to 12 hexes? Does it matter if the waypoint is exactly 6 hexes from the target, or can it be 10 hexes from the target (i.e., to which "end" of the first movement phase do you add the additional 2 hexes)? This is where I remember having trouble - bombardment TFs seem to like to "pause" for a day at one phase of movement away from the target if possible.


You have the testbed; try it! [:)]

I can test that, but part of the problem is 21 knots. It's 9 hexes at Mission I believe. These ships are pigs. With mid-war DDs you probably have more dancing room. I agree if you waypoint over multiple days off a coast odd things can happen. I was just trying to show that there's nothing in the engine to make a pause at a waypoint in a bombardment mission mandatory. And you can force a daylight bombardment, to the OP's question.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/13/2014 10:12:37 PM)

FWIW, I ran two more.

Started at 10, waypointed to 12, ended at 7 hexes east of Mili.

Started at 7, waypointed to 9, ended at 4 from Mili.

In both cases both day pulses resulted in traveling five hexes. Interesting. In my first test it traveled six and barely got the bombardment in before End of Day. Don't know how the math works inside the box.



Lokasenna -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/14/2014 12:00:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

FWIW, I ran two more.

Started at 10, waypointed to 12, ended at 7 hexes east of Mili.

Started at 7, waypointed to 9, ended at 4 from Mili.

In both cases both day pulses resulted in traveling five hexes. Interesting. In my first test it traveled six and barely got the bombardment in before End of Day. Don't know how the math works inside the box.


So they moved 5 hexes in each of those cases. I hate waypoints and bombardments :-/.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/14/2014 12:07:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

FWIW, I ran two more.

Started at 10, waypointed to 12, ended at 7 hexes east of Mili.

Started at 7, waypointed to 9, ended at 4 from Mili.

In both cases both day pulses resulted in traveling five hexes. Interesting. In my first test it traveled six and barely got the bombardment in before End of Day. Don't know how the math works inside the box.


So they moved 5 hexes in each of those cases. I hate waypoints and bombardments :-/.


No, they moved seven.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/14/2014 1:03:41 AM)

Just for grins, because I've never really focused much on bombardments this way, I put the TF at 7 hexes due east of Mili. New turn. It ran west exactly THREE hexes in a night and a day phase, ending up 4 due east. Ran the next turn. It went 4, bombarded at night, and retreated SIX--to the SE, when Pearl, its homeport, is NE. [:)]

So, when hunting wabbits with pre-war BBs, be wery, wery careful . . .

Given its head, the code is going to do everything it can to bombard at night. You can do a Remain order, and take your medicine, or you can do a waypoint head-fake, and take your medicine, if a daylight bombardment is mandatory. Or, you can figure out a way to make it not mandatory.



Alfred -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/14/2014 3:12:06 AM)

As normally happens, the OP fails to give complete details and expects a solution.[>:]  Providing screenshots is always more useful as the player usually doesn't understand what is the important data to provide.

I strongly suspect that the OP is trying to bombard his own, friendly base.  Plus why does he think he should be able to get a good bombardment in during a night phase with zero moonlight.  This game plays attention to historical real world conditions.

Nowadays I don't bother addressing threads where we are expected to guess what are the circumstances.  However, because Bullwinkle has gone to the trouble of play testing this, I will relent on this occasion.

Read Don Bowen's comments in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3500539&mpage=1&key=bombardment%2Cwaypoint&#3513762

The game code surrounding bombardment and fast transport task forces is very complex and the devs know that there are certain loose ends which are extremely difficult to track down.

1.  In classical WITP, all bombardment TFs moved to arrive at target only at night.  There were no waypoints in classical WITP.

2.  AE introduced waypoints to naval movement.  In AE it is now possible to assign waypoints to bombardment TFs but the previous classical WITP bombardment code remained untouched.

3.  This means that even in AE, bombardment TF still attempt to arrive at target during the night phase.  The code automatically determines a standoff point which is determined as being that point (hex) which allows the TF to move at maximum speed to arrive at the target (enemy hex) during the 12 hour night phase.

4.  If the player allocates a waypoint which is further away in hex distance from the target than the code determined standoff point, the TF will linger at this waypoint until it can move to the code determined standoff point to complete its action in accordance with point 3 above.

5.  If the player allocates a waypoint which is closer in hex distance from the target than the code determined standoff point, the TF moves to this closer point but then engages in the standard high speed run night run in.

6.  Setting the second waypoint to be the target enemy base itself (the first waypoint being as per point 5 above) may deliver the bombardment during the day phase but you would have to ensure that the TF is not set to return using waypoints as a lot of the codding difficulties lies in the get away logic.

Using waypoints with bombardment (and fast) task forces is fraught with great risk as these operations are intended to occur at night and escape before the enemy can mount an effective counter.  The only certain way to get a day bombardment of an enemy base is when the TF delivers its night bombardment and because it has "remain at station" orders, provided it retains sufficient ammo it can deliver a second bombardment in the following 12 hour day phase.  Of course then you are exposing your ships to additional hazards. 

Alfred



guctony -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/14/2014 6:35:04 AM)

Hello.

In My entire AE history I had 3 daylight bombardment out of maybe 100. In each one results were spectacular. In each one Tanaka was the commander. I think 91 aggress plays great part in daytime attack. In other occasion I tried to remain in position and it cost me Mutsu. 3 lone TB finished him off for good. First try to put aggressive commander in command this is I think much better historical option for game.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/14/2014 12:32:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

6.  Setting the second waypoint to be the target enemy base itself (the first waypoint being as per point 5 above) may deliver the bombardment during the day phase but you would have to ensure that the TF is not set to return using waypoints as a lot of the codding difficulties lies in the get away logic.



A good summary of a lot of historical threads. I guess I've been lucky since I usually use waypoints with bombardment TFs only to get to the step-off point for the mission.

On the get-away, none of my tests had the "follow waypoints on return" button pressed, which sounds like a good thing. And after thinking about the SE course to withdraw the six hexes after the shooting I think it was caused by the air superiority number driven by the Japanese AFs to the NW--Kwaj, RM, etc. Even though the whole Japanese air force is grounded I think the air superiority numbers are still calculated and "known" to the Allied code.



urtel -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/14/2014 5:49:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

As normally happens, the OP fails to give complete details and expects a solution.[>:]  Providing screenshots is always more useful as the player usually doesn't understand what is the important data to provide.


Ok, screenshots ..next time..i will try to remember..


quote:

I strongly suspect that the OP is trying to bombard his own, friendly base.  Plus why does he think he should be able to get a good bombardment in during a night phase with zero moonlight.  This game plays attention to historical real world conditions.

Nowadays I don't bother addressing threads where we are expected to guess what are the circumstances.  However, because Bullwinkle has gone to the trouble of play testing this, I will relent on this occasion.


I m try to bombard units in mine base, and reason i m try to do day bombardment is because i know that night bombardment with 0% moonlight will give bad results, so i m not complain on bad result but i ask how to do it in daytime, guess mine English is not good enough...

Anyway i done it!

So i used same task force 3CA+5DD from Cox-bazar 5 hex from Ramree Island, i put them to bombardment, target Ramree, set use cruise speed and remain on station and this time everything go well..they go there stay whole day and after PM air phase they done bombardment...great...
Only thing i changed from first time is max react which is now 0 and before it was 1!
That can explain why in first attempt TF changed to mission speed and get to target in night done bombardment and then switch to surface combat, they reacted to something, not that i m seen anything but it is still good explanation...

In second attempt with max react = 0 they do exactly what i want get there, sit to end of day phase and do bombardment after PM air phase:


*********************************
Naval bombardment of Ramree Island at 54,48

Allied Ships
CA Exeter
CA Cornwall
CA Dorsetshire
DD Jupiter
DD Isis
DD Express
DD Decoy
DD Arrow

Japanese ground losses:
96 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Walrus II acting as spotter for CA Exeter
CA Exeter firing at 77th Infantry Regiment
CA Cornwall firing at Sasebo 8th SNLF
CA Dorsetshire firing at 77th Infantry Regiment
DD Jupiter firing at Sasebo 8th SNLF
DD Isis firing at 77th Infantry Regiment
DD Express firing at 77th Infantry Regiment
DD Decoy firing at 77th Infantry Regiment
DD Arrow firing at 77th Infantry Regiment


****************************
AIR OPERATIONS PHASE : PM
SS Grampus under attack by a D3A2 Val at 101,123
TF 178 followed by Japanese Float Plane at 36,24 near Bombay
PBY-5 Catalina sighting report: Japanese xAK at 127,128 near Nauru Island , Speed unknown
Hudson III (LR) attacking SS I-171 at 114,139
:::::::: SS I-171 is reported HIT
Catalina I sighting report: 9 Japanese ships at 101,123 near Umboi Island , Speed 10 , Moving Southwest
Search Catalina I destroyed by CAP
Hudson IIIa attacking SS I-155 at 28,46
:::::::: SS I-155 is reported HIT
AIR STRIKES
5 x 139WH-3 unable to locate target due to range or weather
1LT Janssen, L.J. of 1-Vl.G.I is KILLED
AIRCRAFT LANDING
AIR TRANSPORT PHASE
AIRCRAFT LANDING
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
SURFACE COMBAT CHECK
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
Allied Ships Bombarding enemy troops at Ramree Island
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
*********************************************

So guys if u want DAY bombardments put MAX react to 0 or who know what can happens!



czert2 -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/15/2014 7:24:54 PM)

well, guys do you think that adding code in which you can select day bombardement (only) instead of clasicall run for night bombardement, it will be very ahistorical and gamey or it will just add more option for player to use.



Barb -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/15/2014 9:14:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2
well, guys do you think that adding code in which you can select day bombardement (only) instead of clasicall run for night bombardement, it will be very ahistorical and gamey or it will just add more option for player to use.

I would certainly appreciate the option...



urtel -> RE: how to force daylight bombardment (5/17/2014 12:02:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

well, guys do you think that adding code in which you can select day bombardement (only) instead of clasicall run for night bombardement, it will be very ahistorical and gamey or it will just add more option for player to use.


i see nothing unhistorical in day bombardments, 90% of late war alliance bombardments was in day light..

+1 for option to chose day/night bombardment but i think that option will not be easy to add...



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