Experience/Damage (Full Version)

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murx -> Experience/Damage (3/16/2001 8:35:00 PM)

I give on that expierence wont upgrade the penetration of a 20mm to that of an infamous 88er ... But (with exerience) the 20mm (with it's high rate of fire esp.) can ruin a tanks capabilities in a minute. I wasn't there but I trained on the Leopard 2 A1 (nearly the same as the M1 Abrahams MBT) and I saw the Marder A3 (APC) in action. A trained gunner can disable the following things on the Leopard 2 : Main Gun optics (very easy, either with MG or the 20mm MK), the commanders periskope (a bit harder, best from higher grounds with HE rounds). The computer (for range/stab etc) at the right/back corner of the tank. Various viewing slots (though they are a periskope and you wont hit anyone inside through them there are only 2 spare ones on board). The antenneas at the backsides of the turret (quit hard to destroy, but a few HE at the base will do). The AA-MG at the loaders hatch. And any equipment outside (doesn't matter). Severly damage the engine (exhaust outlet/air intake) from rear/higher firing grounds). So even if the Marder with it's small 20mm will not be able to breach the Leopards armor from any side it's able to nearly completely disable it. Esp. with the weak training of operating the gun without computer/range finding the tank wont hit anything :). So my question is : Shouldn't the damage chance on tanks be adjusted by the experience ? Probably this will be hard. Esp as one cant 'choose' which ammo a tank should fire. Together with the way damage on tanks is calculated I guess the game mechanics wont give a easy way to resolve this. But still it would be nice :) murx



MindSpy -> (3/16/2001 8:50:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by murx: I give on that expierence wont upgrade the penetration of a 20mm to that of an infamous 88er ... But (with exerience) the 20mm (with it's high rate of fire esp.) can ruin a tanks capabilities in a minute. I wasn't there but I trained on the Leopard 2 A1 (nearly the same as the M1 Abrahams MBT) and I saw the Marder A3 (APC) in action. A trained gunner can disable the following things on the Leopard 2 : Main Gun optics (very easy, either with MG or the 20mm MK), the commanders periskope (a bit harder, best from higher grounds with HE rounds). The computer (for range/stab etc) at the right/back corner of the tank. Various viewing slots (though they are a periskope and you wont hit anyone inside through them there are only 2 spare ones on board). The antenneas at the backsides of the turret (quit hard to destroy, but a few HE at the base will do). The AA-MG at the loaders hatch. And any equipment outside (doesn't matter). Severly damage the engine (exhaust outlet/air intake) from rear/higher firing grounds). So even if the Marder with it's small 20mm will not be able to breach the Leopards armor from any side it's able to nearly completely disable it. Esp. with the weak training of operating the gun without computer/range finding the tank wont hit anything :). So my question is : Shouldn't the damage chance on tanks be adjusted by the experience ? Probably this will be hard. Esp as one cant 'choose' which ammo a tank should fire. Together with the way damage on tanks is calculated I guess the game mechanics wont give a easy way to resolve this. But still it would be nice :) murx
MINDSPY For the SP2 games the surest way to increase you chances of fighting a superior opponent in armour or other unit types is to give yourself as much of an increase in experience as you can. Now in the early SP games since security was very lite there was a great number of Nefarious methods you could use to get yourself that extra edge even if the historic settings were on! It can be done whether you are palyer one or player two! Now oturight you are not going to win by adjusting your unit's experience value however you will come damn well close. In fact if you both elect to use higher levels of experience then mg's begin to rout rout modern tanks! yes mg's!!!!!!!! Now SP3 is related to Sp2 so :rolleyes: :cool: :cool: :cool: :eek: have a good day MINDSPY



murx -> (3/16/2001 9:31:00 PM)

Hrm, havent edited anything in SP till now I can't tell if that does something :confused: But while playing campaign I experienced that the rare elite and the veteran status didn't help much except for number of shots/hit probability. Esp. when I hit with that 50mm numerous times without doing anything good ... For suppression it feels that MG cant bring my tanks beyond lvl 1 no matter how many times they hit. At least I never noticed. murx



MindSpy -> (3/16/2001 10:03:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by murx: Hrm, havent edited anything in SP till now I can't tell if that does something :confused: But while playing campaign I experienced that the rare elite and the veteran status didn't help much except for number of shots/hit probability. Esp. when I hit with that 50mm numerous times without doing anything good ... For suppression it feels that MG cant bring my tanks beyond lvl 1 no matter how many times they hit. At least I never noticed. murx
MINDSPY Campaigns! Doesn't it bother you that the computer gets beat up on enough as it is without getting even more thrills and spills for your side. never mind I know the answer to that one. Uh no it is not one mg's effects that will get you a unit running away in WAW. Each unit that fires on a target contributes to it's supression so a group of mg's would cause more suppression on a target type then just the one. As well if you hit your target from more than one direction you will get better results. well you could try adjusting the HITTING and SEARCHING and the EXPERIENCE and of course the toughness characteristics for each type ARMOUR AND INFANTRY. Set them to their lowest levels then see what the Elite troops can do vs the not so Elite. The good thing about any game that has good game mechanics is that if a weapon type is not good enough to get the penetration then in the hands of a very good crew type it can get the rolls for target supression and stun effects and target damage. (now HE is best for overall for causing damage to a target and the bigger the shot the better!) These results increase for the better trained troops but you have to get within a pretty good range for WW2 to really capitalize on that and well that is pretty risky when you know you are up against something out of your league! But as you said until you try it is something to be discovered. MindSpy



edppcli -> (3/17/2001 1:29:00 AM)

You want me to beleive that you can pick off some guys antenna at 1000yds while under return fire, no sleep for 48 hrs and scared ****less. Come on you been watching too much Hollywood.



MindSpy -> (3/17/2001 3:32:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by edppcli: You want me to beleive that you can pick off some guys antenna at 1000yds while under return fire, no sleep for 48 hrs and scared ****less. Come on you been watching too much Hollywood.
MNDSPY It's not sleep or lots of it that will remove that antenna it's 120 plus mm of HE MINDSPY



Paul Vebber -> (3/17/2001 4:15:00 AM)

The game accounts for non-penetrating damage from weapons. A bigger shell has a bigger chance to do non-penetrating damage. But its not related to experience, nor do I think it should be. (agreeing with edppcli)



murx -> (3/17/2001 5:23:00 AM)

Hi all, I agree that at 1000 yards one wont hit the antennea socket with a 20mm, normal combat range for that is 400-600 m (450-670 yards) anyways. But an able gunner can hit targets 20 cm large at 200m (at 50 yards = 1 hex this should be much easier). And it sure doesnt need 120 mm HE (how much TNT does that deliver??) to take out things like antennea mounts, optics, viewing slots and the like. (Btw, 'Range Finders' in WWII were ALWAYS included into the maingun main optics - so I wonder how one can destroy them without destroying the main optics :confused: ). It's not the overall force of the shell that rips of antennea mount - a 7.92mm of a sniper rifle has enough firepower to do that job :) An arty shell 120mm or more will most probably destroy ANY outside attached equipment including antennea if it hits the top of the tank turret. And for the '24h no sleep' matter - this is in NO way handled in the game ! A unit can run over half the map, assault multiple times several tanks and get all the way back. There is no fatigue, whatsoeveer, and even the last member of a squad can get back to suppression level of zero - meaning 100% fighting efficiency for this man... But as I noted before - I guess the game engine wont give a way to handle this. murx



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