When do aircraft start an engines? (Full Version)

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hb921 -> When do aircraft start an engines? (5/17/2014 4:03:27 PM)

There is VTOL siting on the deck of, for example, LHA. It is ready. As far as I understand it means it is armed, fuelled, pilot has been breefed and is siting in cockpit. Let assume there is ample supply of pilots to provide this kind of watch...
After receiving order to take off it takes only 30 seconds for this VTOL to become airborne. Witch is fine, as long as we assume that this ready aircraft has na engine running.
Is there such assumption? If not, 30 seconds is to short period of time to start engine, warm it up, and take off. SAC for Harrier, for example, gives 2 minutes 45 seconds for this procedure.

So when do aircraft start engines? Are all ready aircraft siting with engines running?

Best Regards



Blu3wolf -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/17/2014 6:23:56 PM)

well - you can sit most fighter aircraft on alert status, which means they are ready to go in the event they are needed. You can get an F-16 depending on block engine running and EGI systems aligned within a minute, ready to taxi. F-18s on alert actually wait with engines running to provide power for cockpit avionics and to eliminate need for quick engine starts, though at the cost of more fuel spent whilst on alert status.

Depends on the aircraft really. Id imagine it would take longer for say an AP-3C to go through engine start than it would for a newer block F-16.



ComDev -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/17/2014 7:03:43 PM)

This is the time it takes rolling from the parking/waiting area to the take-off spot. In effect the take-off interval [8D]



hb921 -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/17/2014 9:02:28 PM)

Well, it is no problem on land bases - taxing well accounts for warm up. But VTOL taking off in just 30 seconds is just to good to be true - there is no taxing.



ComDev -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/17/2014 9:26:56 PM)

The time is not including warm-up - it is the time it takes taxing from A to B and get airborne [8D]



hb921 -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/18/2014 10:08:46 AM)

So, if this time do not include warm up, is there an assumpion that ready aircraft on deck sit with engines on and idling? If yes, they should use fuel. If no it is impossible to take off in 30 seconds. Here is the link to Harrier SAC - and warm up/take off/acceleration is given a 2 minutes 45 seconds.

There is similar issue with helos on FFG/DDG/CG - they are taking off in 30 seconds from hangar (Build 521). Taking off in 30 seconds from helo pad, with engine already running is quite reasonable. 30 seconds for moving helo from hangar to pad, start engine, deploy and spin rotor and take off is not real world performance.



thewood1 -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/18/2014 11:19:26 AM)

In the grand scheme of what is being simulated, I sure hope some of the more important additions are being prioritized over issues like this. I know some of the OCD-types really get their knickers in a twist when The T-80UM's speed is listed as 52 kph and not 51, but there are threads on engine warm up times, elevator usage, landing patterns, overland speed of mobile SAM vehicles, etc. This game is simulating theater-wide war. Its not Falcon 4.0. There has to be some abstraction at some level of the result is going to be over-simulation and the sim collapsing under its own weight.



mikmykWS -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/18/2014 1:32:00 PM)

Yes they definitely are.

Thanks!



hb921 -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/18/2014 3:58:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

In the grand scheme of what is being simulated, I sure hope some of the more important additions are being prioritized over issues like this.


ROGER on this prioritizing thing.

quote:


I know some of the OCD-types really get their knickers in a twist when The T-80UM's speed is listed as 52 kph and not 51,


As you brought up this example - as nice it is to have land unit in CMANO it is no core part of the sim. Air Naval operations are - and take off time is part of them. Moreover between 51 and 52 is less than 2% difference. Take off in 30 seconds instead of nearly 3 minutes is more than 5 times faster. So applying it to above example this T-80UM would be capable of more than 250 kph. Not bad. For tank at least... [;)]

quote:


This game is simulating theater-wide war.


I was under impression, that it depends on scenario. There are some with few ships per side.

Let me summarize - VTOL taking of from LHA 30s, from CV 80s, from land base 150s (assuming it is ready, and all facilities available, and on carrier it is siting on deck).
Hello - from deck on LHA 30s, from hangar on LHA 150s, from deck on CV 80s (it is using catapult...), from hangar on DDG 30s, from land base 150s (for some reason it need to taxii...).

Now, if you can honestly say it isn't strange I quit. Why the same VTOL is not capable of 30s take off from land base? Why the same hello cannot take off in 30s from LHA hangar if it can from DDG hangar?

Maybe some explanation - why this do matter in operational level sim. This unnaturally fast take off from particular bases makes intercept (especially air intercept) feasible in situations when in real world patrols would be necessary. And for some reason those privileged platforms are aviation ships without catapults. I see no real world explanation for this, and nobody in this thread pointed there is one.



mikmykWS -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/18/2014 4:12:14 PM)

Do you have any real world data to support this? We very much appreciate your line of though but just need a little more to act on it.

The value in asking this isn't questioning you necessarily but being positioned to respond to queries as to why things take so long to take off etc?[:)]

Mike



Tomcat84 -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/18/2014 4:20:21 PM)

I agree with the OP that it should take longer to takeoff. I dont think this is a huge issue right now though but should be something to look at.

Real world even if you're sitting at the end of the runway with your jet running you would probably call your readiness status around two minutes. And in the US Navy dont they call the jets that are primed to go the Alert 5? aka 5 minutes?

A modern jet can align navigation systems and stuff prettyfast but from a hangar till takeoff you still will need about 10 minutes even if you are sitting by the jet (not in) and it's primed for alert. If you are in the jet with engines running but in a hangar, probably about 5 minutes.






mikmykWS -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/18/2014 4:32:29 PM)

Thanks Tomcat[:)]



hb921 -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/18/2014 6:13:25 PM)

Well, not exactly real world data, but I have already provided link for Harrier SAC, there is for Viking - according to this one - warm up, taxi and take off is counted for 5 minutes. Sadly not each SAC gives this number.

I will dig a bit more, and report findings.




mikmykWS -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/18/2014 6:15:08 PM)

Ok thanks appreciate the effort!

Mike



dillonkbase -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/18/2014 10:41:59 PM)

this is illuminating for b52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ7niLYSVFo



jdkbph -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/19/2014 12:50:24 AM)

MITOs have always been pretty rare, as far as I know. Dangerous too. In 3 years at Fairchild I only saw it done maybe twice. By the time the 4th, 5th, 6th and subsequent birds were rolling down the runway, the air was so dirty - both in terms of visibility and turbulence - that it's a wonder they weren't dropping out of the sky. These were old G models I'm talking about... J57s. They could really generate a lot of smoke when using water injection.

JD



navwarcol -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/19/2014 1:35:15 AM)

Generally speaking a/c such as VTOL will carry heavier payload for example from a land base as well, and will not then vertically take-off. Vertical take off is a tradeoff for at sea operations from a deck, and what you give up in the trade is usually less payload. When using the same aircraft from a land base with room for a full takeoff most times you gladly will use that and add carry weight.



hb921 -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/19/2014 5:30:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dillonkbase

this is illuminating for b52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ7niLYSVFo



Nice. Very nice. From the start of first run, to last one becoming airborne it took 7 minutes and 10 seconds, for 12 B-52. It is 36s per aircraft - so C:MANO is nearly spot on allowing 30 seconds for take off run. Sadly, there are cuts at 1 minute 44 s, and 1 minute and 56 s, so it is hard to tell how long took engine start up.

For that it is worth there is F-16 warm up



jdkbph -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/19/2014 5:44:01 PM)

MITO is not a "scramble" in the Battle of Britain sense at all. The planes are stacked on the taxiway near the departure end of the runway and wait idling there for their turn to roll.

With regard to how long it takes to get a B52 started and off the ground...

Discounting the Nuke armed alert birds, the time it takes to get a B52 off the ground - starting the clock when the crew climbs aboard, and including a checklist engine start, taxi and take off, assuming no traffic holds - is on the order of 20 - 30 minutes. If you factor in the walk-arounds and admins stuff, it's well over an hour.

JD



hb921 -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/19/2014 5:59:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

Generally speaking a/c such as VTOL will carry heavier payload for example from a land base as well, and will not then vertically take-off.


Yes. Harrier max take off weight 31000 lb, vertical take off weight 19000 lb...

quote:


Vertical take off is a tradeoff for at sea operations from a deck, and what you give up in the trade is usually less payload. When using the same aircraft from a land base with room for a full takeoff most times you gladly will use that and add carry weight.


Most times. In some circumstances shorter take off time can be more valuable. But I doubt that vertical take of is quicker than normal in RL.



hb921 -> RE: When do aircraft start an engines? (5/28/2014 4:41:26 PM)

Some data on engine startups. For helos, but they also enjoy quick take off, and videos for them are far more obvious than for aircraft.
UH-1
AW101
S 76

Please, notice how long it takes to spin up rotor.



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