RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (Full Version)

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Spidey -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 4:01:25 PM)

That's not bad at all, Gregorovitch. In fact it's pretty damn good and I don't mind one bit that DW is on Steam, though I can understand if Matrix were reluctant to take that step. I just wish Steam was a lot less hamfisted with regards to consumer rights and customer service. I wish they had general principles against things like stealth patches and forced updates. I wish they'd allow the user to control the version he wanted to install. I wish they'd allow the user to decide if he wants Steam to detect and "repair" the "damage" to a game that his intentional mods have caused. And have you ever heard anyone say nice things about Steam customer support? And none of all this is necessary in order to provide the service that Steam does.



Gregorovitch55 -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 4:41:59 PM)

You can turn off auto-update of patches if you want. Also you can select various builds to install *if* the devs decide to make that available. This feature is often used to make beta RC builds available for public testing prior to release of major patches. It is also up the the devs whether they make a Steam launch of their game mandatory or if you can simply fire up the .exe without Steam running.

My biggest beef with Steam, apart from the DRM thing, has always been the monopolistic tendency of the thing. DW going over 800 concurrent players and rising as I write this shows just how much power the platform has in the PC game market, and that is always worrying. But I have had to admit there are positives to this:

1. Indie games that would probably never see the light of day otherwise can and do get up there and knock multi-million $ AAA off the top of the charts if they are are good enough - just like that. Banished is a recent major example of this, and although it's too early to tell yet, DW looks to be doing pretty well - a lot of new players must be playing it now. I am all for the quality of games rather than marketing budgets or shady distribution deals being the deciding factor, and Steam does that.

2. I love playing on PC and the type of games that can only really be developed for PC. In particular I want to see games developed for the PC and then down-ported to consoles rather than the other way round.What Steam has done is to transform the position of the PC in the games market. It is cool now and and it's adoption as a main gaming platform is rising. Cool gamers build their own PC to play on now. Virtually all the Youtube stars play on PC. That Steam provides a service at least as good as any of the console vendors in all departments has IMO a great deal to do with this. Thank God for that, I say.





necaradan666 -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 4:54:59 PM)

Steam shows me how many hours I've been playing, logged 15 hours so far. It uses the same save folder so when I uninstalled my Matrix version my settings and saves were right where I left them.



Spidey -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 5:06:24 PM)

I don't disagree about the positives, Gregorivitch. I'm an angry ideologist, but I'm not *that* angry. Most of the time. [:)]

And yes, you can turn off auto-update, but it's entirely up to Valve and the developers whether Steam will respect those settings or not. Yes, you can select between the builds that the developers allow you to select, but that's not really me having any version control on my computer, is it? That's the devs having version control over stuff on my computer, even though it's clearly none of their damn business which version of the game I'm running. Sure, it's better than nothing, and I can see the argument from a developer perspective, but I'm still losing my ability to make intelligent decisions over software on my computer.

What this all boils down to, however, isn't that I hope Steam as a concept dies or even that Steam itself dies, but simply that I don't like the Steam that currently is.



Buio -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 5:08:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey
I could've said a lot of things, absolutely. But I still just answered the question. And then you hand-waved my reasons away as irrelevant bile and called me a creep, which strikes me as a generally odd reaction from someone who isn't a fan of hate posts. [:)]

Regarding your question, I would actually agree that MS is a bigger "bad guy" than Valve but what has that got to do with anything? This topic isn't about MS, is it? And MS being bigger dicks than Valve doesn't even begin to imply that Valve aren't also dicks, does it? Should I pretend they're not dicks because they're not the biggest dicks alive? What kind of general principle is that based on? Do you use it in all aspects of life or does it only apply to Valve?

Yeah, your post was long and ranting so I made a stupid reaction post. But as you hate Steam everything is overblown by you and sometimes I see red.

So let's take a look at your reasonable reply.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey
For one, Steam is a backdoor into your system that you've only got whatever control over that Valve allows you to have. I doubt it will get hacked anytime soon, but the occasional stealth update shows that Steam can force updates through without asking permission and regardless of your settings.


Backdoor to your system? Come on. Steam does scan some things to detect hackers and to be able to ban cheaters more easy. But everybody does that, Microsoft, Blizzard, Origin, etc.

"I doubt it will get hacked anytime soon" - What do you mean, that you want Steams protections to get hacked?

Stealth updates? It's the publisher that publishes updates. Blaming "stealth updates" on Valve is just ignorant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey
On top of that, you've got zero version control. Maybe you're afforded the luxury of holding out on an update here and now, but reinstalls are with the latest version and I could swear that I've read about cases of games where you simply can't play, not even offline, unless you activate online and patch up. This won't be critical in all games but there are situations where you lose saved games with serious time investments and there are times where patches actually hurt the game more than they help.

This is done to ease work for publishers. The PC market is already very fragmented and hard to support, and having Steam warn to update drivers and keeping the game to the latest version is a way to alleviate that.

"lose saved games with serious time investments" - well how about all times when it is the opposite, a bug that need to be fixed quick to remove potential problems. You are just slanting everything to be bad, when often it also has a positive effect. You are also forgetting that a majority of gamers don't have your control and knowledge to keep games in perfect condition and with exact patch they want. This feature is done to help a majority getting easier gaming. But as usual it's easier to read complaints and think it's only a problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey
And Steam's answer to both those problems is essentially "go **** yourself", and if you make the mistake of complaining about it on their forums then you'll get swarmed with brats spewing nonsense about how consumer rights shouldn't be and all hail the mighty freaking Valve.

And how is that different from other forums on general gaming sites? If you complain or write negatively about something and is in a minority, you will get lots of retorts. This is the internet, happens everywhere. But you are applying it as a negative on Steam when it is a general problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey
If that system appeals to you then fair enough. It doesn't appeal to me. I can patch my games manually just fine, I can mod my games manually just fine, and I sure can live without giving my money to Valve. If that means I can't buy certain games then that's really not my loss, is it?

You choose to hate a game client and system so much that you don't use it, missing out on good games? I see it as your loss.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey
Final thing, I do take some measure of offense from games that require online activation for offline play. And it pleases me when developers actually show me the respect of not treating me like a moron by stuffing the game they're hoping I'll like full of copy protection garbage that doesn't provide any value for me and also doesn't keep cracked versions off the pirate-infested shores of Sweden. That sort of respect and common courtesy makes me want to buy the game. The Steamworks DRM option? Not so much.

So basically you are just hung up on DRM. The most important thing for you when buying a game isn't if it is good, it is that it is not on Steam or have any other form of online DRM. I would say that is having your priorities wrong. I'm not a fan of DRM, but I rate a good game much higher. Much higher. And I want to contribute to publishers that creates good games.

Then you rant about pirate-infected shores of Sweden. How about checking up some fact before you type a statement like that. Below are piracy rates from 2009 (didn't find any good graph from the later reports from BSA). I believe Sweden was at 25%, USA was lowest at 20%. Don't think piracy has gone up since then, rather the opposite. Online music services like Spotify etc has reduced music piracy.
http://i.imgur.com/rKuh2YA.png



luckz -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 5:44:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buio

Then you rant about pirate-infected shores of Sweden.


It's a play on The Pirate Bay, a rather famous Swedish .. establishment....
Notable enough to have a Wikipedia entry, anyway.
Hence "shores" of Sweden.



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 7:10:54 PM)

I've got it on Steam, but of course I'm rather a fan of Steam. Say what you will about it being intrusive, you really do reap the benefits of a massive library and handy digital distribution network, and an awesome multiplayer platform for all kinds of games--the pros far outweigh the cons.

That said, it really doesn't like Steam that much. Steam alerts and the Steam interface in general seems to conflict somehow with the DW UI.



Gregorovitch55 -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 7:13:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey

I don't disagree about the positives, Gregorivitch. I'm an angry ideologist, but I'm not *that* angry. Most of the time. [:)]

And yes, you can turn off auto-update, but it's entirely up to Valve and the developers whether Steam will respect those settings or not. Yes, you can select between the builds that the developers allow you to select, but that's not really me having any version control on my computer, is it? That's the devs having version control over stuff on my computer, even though it's clearly none of their damn business which version of the game I'm running. Sure, it's better than nothing, and I can see the argument from a developer perspective, but I'm still losing my ability to make intelligent decisions over software on my computer.

What this all boils down to, however, isn't that I hope Steam as a concept dies or even that Steam itself dies, but simply that I don't like the Steam that currently is.


I mean my story with Valve is that I bought Half Life 2 when it came out, installed Steam 'cos I had to, played the game once and wiped it and Steam off my system vowing I would never, ever allow it anywhere near any machine of mine again. Long story short Civ5 and Skyrim eventually broke me. I understand exactly where you're coming from.

But getting back to the controlling your own system and versions thing, the fact is for the majority of people the requirement to mess around with installing, configuring and patching PC games is good reason to buy a console. I don't think there's much doubt that for most people the ease of installing games via Steam removes a big barrier to PC gaming.




Spidey -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 8:25:01 PM)

Holy hell, Gregorovitch. That's actually my story too, except the part about bending to the pressure of Skyrim and Civ5. [:)]

And yeah, I'm sure it is a help for many people that Steam is making the hard choices for them, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Again, if updating was actually optional with no way for developers to force updates through then we'd have largely the same benefits without the problem.

Edit: But if we were to take off the idealist goggles and be realistic, it's of course not a problem if people don't think it's a problem, and for the most part people are more than happy to let Valve run their games for them, regardless of idealistic issues in that approach. And it sure is more convenient for developers to not have to worry too much about supporting legacy versions.



Spidey -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 8:32:41 PM)

@ Buio

Come on, man. I actually spent nearly an hour writing a detailed reply to all that stuff you wrote but you know what? That's taking your complaints more seriously than they're worth. Sorry. I'll give you a brief summary, though.

*) Giving people the option of automatic updates is nice. It helps people and it's an option so angry people like myself can have the option of not risking that our saved games get canned because some developer felt an update was called for. Option is good. Forced updates, be it stealth updates or just "you must update your game to activate" fluff, is not good. It takes my control over my game away from me. It gives me no options on my own computer. No option is not good. And since Valve developed the system, Valve get credit for the good things and they get blamed for the bad things.

*) A backdoor is something that allows a remote user to run code on a system without the owner of the system knowing about it. We know that Steam can both run executables and update them, and given the stealth patches we also know that it can be subtle about those updates. How is that not a backdoor?

*) I know why developers and publishers don't like gamers having version control while many gamers don't really care. That doesn't make it right.

*) The idea that me not giving my money to Valve is my loss is actually quite amusing. I wrote a minor essay on how ridiculous our modern obsession with the ownership of stuff is, but I doubt you'd have appreciated it anyway.

*) Very few times in gaming history has a bug been so severe that it necessitated that gamers be forced to patch their game. Many times in gaming history have patches broken saved games or introduced bigger problems than they fixed. You tell me which of those two things I really should be more worried about?

*) I'm not going to discuss the specifics of piracy out of respect for Matrix and their friends. What I will say is that it definitely isn't my experience that Steam is a cure or even a treatment for piracy. And that's all I have to say on that topic. You're free to believe or disbelieve as you see fit.



Flinkebeinchen -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 8:43:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube
That said, it really doesn't like Steam that much. Steam alerts and the Steam interface in general seems to conflict somehow with the DW UI.

Thats because Distant Worlds is working in a full screen borderless window. Steam overlay doesn't work with that unfortunaly. I really hoped they would fixed that when I saw the Steam announcement but my hopes where not really high. I played the other DW versions while starting from Steam, so I knew about this issue like a year or two before...



Darkspire -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 8:50:53 PM)

[image]http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/Necrospire/Secret%20Squiggle/dwforum_zps0910802d.jpg[/image]



Osito -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 9:13:34 PM)

Hahaha! Cute.



Spidey -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 9:34:02 PM)

Sorry Darkspire. I'll stop pestering you really old people with my anger management issues. [:)]



henri51 -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 10:39:37 PM)

I got the game from Matrix for about $10 (I already had all the other versions from Matrix), and after I got the Steam key, I uninstalled the Matrix version. I have dozens of both Matrix games and Steam games. The reason I prefer Steam is that once the game is installed, you can uninstall and reinstall it as many times as you want without entering any key, and the name is still there in the list so you don't forget that it is available. Also Steam will update my games automatically so I don't have to keep checking if any patches or upgrades are available. For many games the mods as well as guides etc are available right on the Steam workshop site and there is no hassle to install them. And Steam always installs the latest patched version. And if like me you have Steam on two different computers (which I cannot use at the same time), the name of the game automatically appears in the Steam library and is installed on the second computer simply by double-clicking on the name.

There is nothing wrong with the Matrix manner of reinstalling games (as long as they are not too old), but it is requires logging in as a member, finding the game and its serial number, and entering that serial number into the game after it is installed, then perhaps installing patches, compared to the one-click reinstall of Steam.

I recognize that some do not like Steam for various reasons, but I have over 50 games on Steam and have NEVER had a problem.



Osito -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 10:49:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

I got the game from Matrix for about $10 (I already had all the other versions from Matrix), and after I got the Steam key, I uninstalled the Matrix version. I have dozens of both Matrix games and Steam games. The reason I prefer Steam is that once the game is installed, you can uninstall and reinstall it as many times as you want without entering any key, and the name is still there in the list so you don't forget that it is available. Also Steam will update my games automatically so I don't have to keep checking if any patches or upgrades are available. For many games the mods as well as guides etc are available right on the Steam workshop site and there is no hassle to install them. And Steam always installs the latest patched version. And if like me you have Steam on two different computers (which I cannot use at the same time), the name of the game automatically appears in the Steam library and is installed on the second computer simply by double-clicking on the name.

There is nothing wrong with the Matrix manner of reinstalling games (as long as they are not too old), but it is requires logging in as a member, finding the game and its serial number, and entering that serial number into the game after it is installed, then perhaps installing patches, compared to the one-click reinstall of Steam.

I recognize that some do not like Steam for various reasons, but I have over 50 games on Steam and have NEVER had a problem.


I know what you mean. When Steam first came out I was a Steam hater, and refused to use it. A couple of years ago, I used to head-butt the monitor over the fact that it would take a minute or two to boot up.

A few years later, I just can't be bothered to hate on it. It serves its purpose (for me), and that's it.

However, I do remember the way I used to feel about it, and when other people post opinions matching the opinions that I used to hold, I do have some sympathy for them. You see, it's not that I've been won over, or brainwashed, by Steam, it's just that it does what I need it to do and I care less about the downsides. Many would probably argue that is a very bad thing.



Algon -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/25/2014 11:18:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tree Dog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Animorganimate

Steam is DRM.


Steam is a store.
Steamworks is DRM.

As somebody who religiously backs up their installers, and who cannot do that with steam, I can absolutely assure you that steam is DRM, and steamworks is just worse DRM. Go on, try to reinstall any of your steam games without having to use steam to do so. That restriction is not there if I have an installer from Matrix.



elanaagain -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 12:03:50 AM)

No, I won't. True, there is no DRM for DW on steam. However, steam does add some load to your PC while playing a game thru steam. So, no thank you.



Breet -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 3:53:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Algon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tree Dog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Animorganimate

Steam is DRM.


Steam is a store.
Steamworks is DRM.

As somebody who religiously backs up their installers, and who cannot do that with steam, I can absolutely assure you that steam is DRM, and steamworks is just worse DRM. Go on, try to reinstall any of your steam games without having to use steam to do so. That restriction is not there if I have an installer from Matrix.



You cannot backup with steam?
Um, you can, method a is using the 'backup and restore' game/s option, Method B is just copying the damn folder somewhere else.

As for restinalling w/o? I do that with a few games. Distant worlds included (yes, you can, as people have said in this thread. Just make a shortcut to the distantworlds.exe file and you don't need to run steam again if you don't want to, hell move the folder out and delete steam, it will work, I copied my dw to my laptop that doesn't have steam on it and it works fine.



Tree Dog -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 6:24:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Algon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tree Dog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Animorganimate

Steam is DRM.


Steam is a store.
Steamworks is DRM.

As somebody who religiously backs up their installers, and who cannot do that with steam, I can absolutely assure you that steam is DRM, and steamworks is just worse DRM. Go on, try to reinstall any of your steam games without having to use steam to do so. That restriction is not there if I have an installer from Matrix.



Matrix uses evil DRM, I tried installing DW to DW:S without their installers, but I couldn't. It's good their evil monopoly on DW installations finally ended.



Algon -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 8:35:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Breet

You cannot backup with steam?
Um, you can, method a is using the 'backup and restore' game/s option, Method B is just copying the damn folder somewhere else.

Backing up the files is not the same as backing up an installer. See below.

quote:

As for restinalling w/o? I do that with a few games. Distant worlds included (yes, you can, as people have said in this thread. Just make a shortcut to the distantworlds.exe file and you don't need to run steam again if you don't want to, hell move the folder out and delete steam, it will work, I copied my dw to my laptop that doesn't have steam on it and it works fine.

This is called a workaround or kludge - other terms may apply for your particular location.

An installer often performs more functions than simply copying files. In the event that you need to reinstall a game, it's not the preferred method, and is not guaranteed to work - e.g. if a game has registry entries which are used by the game for certain functions. It probably works for DW, but I wouldn't want to bet on it. I sure wouldn't want to bet on it for a AAA title, even if there was no other DRM present.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tree Dog

Matrix uses evil DRM, I tried installing DW to DW:S without their installers, but I couldn't. It's good their evil monopoly on DW installations finally ended.


When I purchase a game from an online store such as Matrix (or steam), I clearly need to be online at the time (obvious; because 'online' store.) However, once I have completed my purchase, and have downloaded the installer, I never need to be connected to the internet ever again, no matter how many new machines I get, or how often I need to reinstall.

Compare with a game purchased from steam, without relying on workarounds such as the above one.



Tree Dog -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 10:03:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Algon

When I purchase a game from an online store such as Matrix (or steam), I clearly need to be online at the time (obvious; because 'online' store.) However, once I have completed my purchase, and have downloaded the installer, I never need to be connected to the internet ever again, no matter how many new machines I get, or how often I need to reinstall.

Compare with a game purchased from steam, without relying on workarounds such as the above one.


You don't need Steam to play many of the games available on its store. DW:U is one of them.
You can just copy/paste the folder to another computer without the need for an installer if you want.



Algon -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 10:18:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tree Dog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Algon

When I purchase a game from an online store such as Matrix (or steam), I clearly need to be online at the time (obvious; because 'online' store.) However, once I have completed my purchase, and have downloaded the installer, I never need to be connected to the internet ever again, no matter how many new machines I get, or how often I need to reinstall.

Compare with a game purchased from steam, without relying on workarounds such as the above one.


You don't need Steam to play many of the games available on its store. DW:U is one of them.

Which is why I argued about 'installation', not about 'playing'. [:D]

quote:

You can just copy/paste the folder to another computer without the need for an installer if you want.

I addressed that argument above. It's a kludge. Not guaranteed to work. Don't believe me? Ask Valve themselves whether they officially support you being able to do that (I.e. provide support in the event that your game suffers from a technical issue after having done that. I can confidently predict that the answer will be 'no'.) Edit: Note that I am talking complete reinstallation of a game, not replacing corrupt files in a current install.

Just because you can find a way to avoid a form of DRM doesn't make it any less DRM. Just ineffective (for certain games.) [:)]

Let me make something clear. I don't care whether you like steam or use steam. All I'm doing is getting a definition right, I'm not trying to stop you from using (or liking) steam.



Athelas2211 -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 1:38:15 PM)

I bought it now that its Steam available, wouldn't do it otherwise. I bought it on matrix store, but emailed serial doesnt work on steam?



Osito -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 2:58:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel

I bought it now that its Steam available, wouldn't do it otherwise. I bought it on matrix store, but emailed serial doesnt work on steam?


Yeah, that confused me at first, but the key they send you by email isn't the Steam key, it's the Matrix key. To get the Steam key, you have to follow the instructions on the sticky on the front page "Redeem your free Steam key:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3615511

Osito




Athelas2211 -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 3:38:00 PM)

nuts.
like Indiana Jiones srarchig for the grail.-



stormbringer3 -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 3:56:21 PM)

Absolutely not. Matrix download and the physical copy is on its' way.



Otto von Blotto -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 6:51:13 PM)

And no steam here either I don't need or want anything to do with steam and if it was only way to play the game I wouldn't play it.



gyrospeck -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 7:31:29 PM)

I got my steam key and will likely play it on that platform. I recognize steams faults, but I also appreciate its services. I also have a Matrix non-DRM installer backed up, but I'll likely only use it if I cannot access steam. I love the option of DRM-free, but I also like steam features/community. I guess I'm torn. Anyway...

Thanks Matrix for offering me both versions for the same price. Not many games allow that and I appreciate it.



Flinkebeinchen -> RE: Will you be playing this on Steam? (5/26/2014 10:50:23 PM)

The Steam Forum explodes! I try to help out there but I can't keep track on all those new posts popping up :(



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